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Well, I'm piecing again - that much is clear. And things are very different than the last time around. We are moving S L O W L Y - no one is moving in and we are certainly not having sex at this point. We are going to MC and it has been great. We went to Disneyland as a family in July and San Diego over Labor Day weekend. We have had a lot of good talks, we are making progress in reestablishing intimacy and we are seeing each other daily (have been for awhile now). We make each other dinner, play with our S, all good stuff.

Backstory.....

As you may recall at the end of March/beginning of April we went to a joint counseling session with the intent of focusing on co-parenting. It ended in her telling me she was in a serious relationship with someone and about to introduce him to our S. I was crushed, devastated, and went totally dark. At that point I am pretty sure I gave up and walked away farther and faster than ever before (check my posts from around this time). No texting, no nothing....I was gone. Only communication that was necessary and about S. At that point, I believe she and the guy "David" had been dating three months - maybe four.

On June 14th, the Sunday before Fathers Day, I got an email from her basically saying that she was ready to move forward with our last remaining embryo on her own and wanted me to consider signing away my rights and responsibilities for it. Thanks to new communication skills, I lovingly, compassionately declined that offer and told her that it was something I could not do.

That pretty much opened the door to A LOT of conversation between the two of us, a lot of talks with God done by ourselves, the end of her relationship with OM, and set the stage for us to attempt piecing again. Nothing has materialized from the embryo just yet - but we both know we want it to.

In this process, she has talked about her growth while alone and what she has learned about herself, our marriage, why it failed and her contributions to that failure. I have done the same for her - and though I do not agree with some of the things she believes and feel some things are left off the list I think constituted her contributions, we are working through it well. She has spoken about not having the skills, background or working model to establish a healthy relationship. We both acknowledge (with the help of my C) that we had clear codependency issues -- hell, I didn't even know what that meant or looked like, but she (my C) was right. She (EX) has also talked about being without a voice in our marriage and not speaking up about things that mattered to her (which, BTW, ALL came the f*ck out on bomb day) and how that unknowingly sublimated into resentment - which really was the poison that killed our R. She regrets not speaking up more, not expressing her opinion, letting me drive the discussion as much as I did and so on. And, truthfully, she has a point -- all of that happened. The sad thing is that if she would have pushed back hard/harder back in the day I probably would not have taken it well and it just would have intensified into a larger conflict. We BOTH lacked communication and empathy skills with one another and I was a tad narcissistic (my C says that I was more along the lines of the "self absorbed" side of that scale....I wasn't a sociopath).

If you add all of that up...toss in THREE years of infertility and related treatments, being new parents, and a short list of other dysfunctional matters one conclusion snaps into clear focus. We were doomed.

So where are we now?

I mentioned in the post that got wiped out in the "great board purge of 14" that when someone once said "piecing is where the hard work begins" I scoffed at that notion because I didn't know what could be harder than what I was going through? Well, piecing ain't easy....but we are working through it. We both still harbor bad memories from the divorce and before and we are working on building back trust....it requires a lot of work and selflessness and I have to practice new skills...so does she, but I am doing it. She is emphatic about not wanting to go back to our old habits or personas that resulted in so much tumult in our lives. We are learned who the new person is and trying to trust and understand that person. How we communicate and how we like to be communicated to has changed and we have to navigate that sea. On the "affection front" we are holding hands when we are out or driving and I give her hour-long back rubs (I don't ask for them, not my thing) - but we are building back the basics of physical touch. As I noted before, my IC told me that women need to feel emotionally safe and secure before they become physical or sexual....while men need to feel accepted physically and/or sexually before they become emotional or vulnerable...so true. We are getting there. I sent her a flirty/borderline racy text last night basically saying I was really turned on by a skirt she was wearing earlier in the day and that it made her rear look perfect. She accepted the compliment and thanked me, but said try saying things verbally to her and not by text. Lesson learned.

Where am I failing/struggling?

People, I am having a hard, hard, hard, hard time moving past this David guy -- and before the 2x4 come flying at my head I know that it is male ego and little to nothing else. I don't like that he met my son, I could go on - but it doesn't matter I guess. Every now and then at her condo I see 1 or 2 little evidentiary pieces of what was probably their sex life and I get that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. What have I done wrong? I will tell you. I looked at the pictures on her phone without her knowledge and found pictures of the two of them together. It gave him a face in my head...not sure if that was a smart thing to do. In my weaker moments, despite small pieces of evidence to the contrary my head goes to a place where I feel as if she is just with me because she wants another baby...I confronted her on that (lovingly) and we talked through it. But still, at times I feel like it not for the embryo she would still be with that guy -- not sure if that is true or not. Her mom recently told me that her "time knowing David ran it's course" and that she "wanted a future". I need to try to breath and accept that and extinguish my ego.

On the extremely petty side of things (but possibly relatable to men), one thing bothers me. When she moved back to the house in the spring of 2012 I acknowledged that one of my faults was the fact that I never made her feel wanted physically -- I was not good at that communicated and infertility, IUIs and IVF torpedoed or sex life. So one day, I spent over an hour at Victoria's Secret, spending hundreds of dollars buying her new "things". I spread them out on the bed for her with a note telling her how attractive and sexy I thought she was and that I would never let her forget it again. A few weeks later she moved back out. Where does the petty come in? She rarely if ever wore anything of the things that I bought her for me/us....but I am SURE in the six months she was with the other guy he pretty much saw all of it. I know, I know, I know....get over it - and I will....but it just makes me sick to my stomach sometimes that I bought him such a nice gift that I intended for us....that I bought out of love. Part of me hopes that she burns all of it in the trash. I will now brace myself and my ego for the 2x4s.

Other than that, I am doing OK. I am putting her and her needs first and living the life that has bloomed in the wake of our divorce...I am being the new me and slowly but surely she is starting to notice I think....but more importantly trust it.

This happened:

The other morning I bought her a dozen and a half roses and brought them to her condo as she was getting ready for her day. Later in the day I texted her at work telling her that I bought them for her because I woke up that morning just wanting to love her. Her reply? "Thanks Chris. Each day I think I heal from our past a little more. I look forward to moving forward on this journey."

That was about as positive as I could expect.

So...that is most of it for now. I have done another stupid thing or two, pretty much all just snooping because I have trust issues still (just being honest) and want to see if something is being hidden from me. Still, we are doing well...son is doing well....and my family, well, that's another post.

More later.

Crimson....awww hell, we're all friends...you can call me Chris if you want to.

Last edited by Crimson; 09/24/14 08:22 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Crimson
Well, I'm piecing again - that much is clear. And things are very different than the last time around. We are moving S L O W L Y - no one is moving in and we are certainly not having sex at this point. We are going to MC and it has been great. We went to Disneyland as a family in July and San Diego over Labor Day weekend. We have had a lot of good talks, we are making progress in reestablishing intimacy and we are seeing each other daily (have been for awhile now). We make each other dinner, play with our S, all good stuff.

Backstory.....

As you may recall at the end of March/beginning of April we went to a joint counseling session with the intent of focusing on co-parenting. It ended in her telling me she was in a serious relationship with someone and about to introduce him to our S. I was crushed, devastated, and went totally dark. At that point I am pretty sure I gave up and walked away farther and faster than ever before (check my posts from around this time). No texting, no nothing....I was gone. Only communication that was necessary and about S. At that point, I believe she and the guy "David" had been dating three months - maybe four.

On June 14th, the Sunday before Fathers Day, I got an email from her basically saying that she was ready to move forward with our last remaining embryo on her own and wanted me to consider signing away my rights and responsibilities for it. Thanks to new communication skills, I lovingly, compassionately declined that offer and told her that it was something I could not do.

That pretty much opened the door to A LOT of conversation between the two of us, a lot of talks with God done by ourselves, the end of her relationship with OM, and set the stage for us to attempt piecing again. Nothing has materialized from the embryo just yet - but we both know we want it to.


well, of course my first fear is that the main reason she's back is b/c she's very much interested in that embryo...so I'd need to know why SHE thinks she and David broke up, to dissipate those feelings. Is that an unreasonable thing for you to want to know? (Not to me).


In this process, she has talked about her growth while alone and what she has learned about herself, our marriage, why it failed and her contributions to that failure. I have done the same for her - and though I do not agree with some of the things she believes and feel some things are left off the list I think constituted her contributions, we are working through it well.


Can you elaborate on what "Working through it well" means? How is she at "owning" her role? And I mean other than her "not telling you how she feels" pieces? I think those are pretty easy to "own", frankly. And What parts of it are what you do not agree with?


She has spoken about not having the skills, background or working model to establish a healthy relationship. We both acknowledge (with the help of my C) that we had clear codependency issues -- hell, I didn't even know what that meant or looked like, but she (my C) was right. She (EX) has also talked about being without a voice in our marriage and not speaking up about things that mattered to her (which, BTW, ALL came the f*ck out on bomb day) and how that unknowingly sublimated into resentment - which really was the poison that killed our R. She regrets not speaking up more, not expressing her opinion, letting me drive the discussion as much as I did and so on. And, truthfully, she has a point -- all of that happened.

Well that^^ is decent and important to see. But what about HER other stuff? Like the passive aggressive or the setting you up for failure and or testing you or any other things she did, other than not speaking up?

To me, the "not speaking up" piece is more like telling a bully you wish you had defended yourself faster, and then acting as if you have "owned" your role,

when in fact you are clearly putting yourself in a position of moral superiority, b/c it's clear to most people who measure (and I DO sense she still is measuring, sorry) that you are on the losing end of the meter stick.

Does that make sense? You don't have to agree but do you know what I'm saying?



The sad thing is that if she would have pushed back hard/harder back in the day I probably would not have taken it well and it just would have intensified into a larger conflict. We BOTH lacked communication and empathy skills with one another and I was a tad narcissistic (my C says that I was more along the lines of the "self absorbed" side of that scale....I wasn't a sociopath).

If you add all of that up...toss in THREE years of infertility and related treatments, being new parents, and a short list of other dysfunctional matters one conclusion snaps into clear focus. We were doomed.

So where are we now?

I mentioned in the post that got wiped out in the "great board purge of 14" that when someone once said "piecing is where the hard work begins" I scoffed at that notion because I didn't know what could be harder than what I was going through? Well, piecing ain't easy....but we are working through it.

We both still harbor bad memories from the divorce and before and we are working on building back trust....it requires a lot of work and selflessness and I have to practice new skills...so does she, but I am doing it.

Does she own anything about her approach to the divorce or the suspicions she has about you and being greedy? OR are you avoiding that for now? (It will come up eventually so I would not forever ignore that)....and How is HER family handling all this?


She is emphatic about not wanting to go back to our old habits or personas that resulted in so much tumult in our lives. We are learned who the new person is and trying to trust and understand that person.

Sounds good. Does she have any thoughts about what SHE'D like to avoid repeating herself? IOW, what flaw of hers does she most want to work on?


How we communicate and how we like to be communicated to has changed and we have to navigate that sea.

Fair enough. Been there, done that.



On the "affection front" we are holding hands when we are out or driving and I give her hour-long back rubs (I don't ask for them, not my thing) - but we are building back the basics of physical touch. As I noted before, my IC told me that women need to feel emotionally safe and secure before they become physical or sexual....while men need to feel accepted physically and/or sexually before they become emotional or vulnerable...so true. We are getting there.


How does SHE feel about that, if you know? Does she seem attracted to YOU enough for you?


I sent her a flirty/borderline racy text last night basically saying I was really turned on by a skirt she was wearing earlier in the day and that it made her rear look perfect. She accepted the compliment and thanked me, but said try saying things verbally to her and not by text. Lesson learned.

Where am I failing/struggling?

People, I am having a hard, hard, hard, hard time moving past this David guy -- and before the 2x4 come flying at my head I know that it is male ego and little to nothing else. I don't like that he met my son, I could go on - but it doesn't matter I guess.

FWIW, your son will NOT remember him. Seriously. And If he does, it'll be of little import. Like meeting a new neighbor, at most. Don't even go there. Just silly to think that way.

As for the intimacy issue, If she had GREAT sex with him, (And is there any other kind??---Answer: Yes there is another kind of sex: It's called mediocre sex & it's mostly with new unfamiliar partners...)

and IF that sex mattered a lot to her AND if she did not think she could do that with you,

don't you think you would know that?



Every now and then at her condo I see 1 or 2 little evidentiary pieces of what was probably their sex life and I get that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. What have I done wrong? I will tell you.

For one, you forgot the STOP SIGN image to shove in your head every time one of those sickening thoughts enters your brain.



I looked at the pictures on her phone without her knowledge and found pictures of the two of them together.


Crimson...okay here, I am sliding my arm in and reaching thru the computer and...

slapping you silly TWACK!!!

There! Stop being a goof. YOU LIKE PAIN?? Stop being a weirdo looking thru her phone and "cutting your heart" with a knife and then saying "Ouch!, that hurts".... Okay, I think I made my point...


It gave him a face in my head...not sure if that was a smart thing to do.


Seriously? You're "not sure if it was a smart thing to do"??? That's funny...


In my weaker moments, despite small pieces of evidence to the contrary my head goes to a place where I feel as if she is just with me because she wants another baby...I confronted her on that (lovingly) and we talked through it.


How did she express herself? Were you reassured she's not just dating you for the baby? You basically said "it's an all or nothing package" right?

She HAS to have YOU if she wants the baby from that embryo AND she can't just get another embryo with someone else? (Why not?)

And why can't she just have the baby and then leave you again, but this time with more child support? Do you think she'd have ever called you or come around if you had signed away the embryo?

Crimson, YOU are the one who needs the most reassurance here, NOT her. Let's be real clear about this. I am.



But still, at times I feel like it not for the embryo she would still be with that guy -- not sure if that is true or not.

that^^ would be and IS my main concern.


Her mom recently told me that her "time knowing David ran it's course" and that she "wanted a future". I need to try to breath and accept that and extinguish my ego.

It's NOT all the ego talking here^^. It's also amazing timing. You say "no" to the embryo question and suddenly she IS interested in you....yeah, you'd be an idiot not to wonder. That's why I'm asking you how SHE is reassuring you that it isn't that way. She said way back when, that she wanted the embryo but was NOT sure she wanted to be a couple with you.

What has changed about that, if anything, and why?



On the extremely petty side of things (but possibly relatable to men), one thing bothers me. When she moved back to the house in the spring of 2012 I acknowledged that one of my faults was the fact that I never made her feel wanted physically -- I was not good at that communicated and infertility, IUIs and IVF torpedoed or sex life. So one day, I spent over an hour at Victoria's Secret, spending hundreds of dollars buying her new "things". I spread them out on the bed for her with a note telling her how attractive and sexy I thought she was and that I would never let her forget it again.

How did she respond at the time you gave those to her? Were you there when she saw them, to gauge her reaction? I'm not sure I'd have reacted the way my h would like if he bought me some of the things I am thinking of.

He once bought me something that was way WAY too small for me, I couldn't decide if he was hinting that I needed to lose weight, or complimenting me on how good I already looked (so I CHOSE to assume the latter).

I also realized one thing for sure, my h cannot guess at women's sizes well. ...but I digress.


A few weeks later she moved back out. Where does the petty come in? She rarely if ever wore anything of the things that I bought her for me/us....but I am SURE in the six months she was with the other guy he pretty much saw all of it.

and how do you know this for "SURE"?? Let alone that he "saw all of it"?? Come on Chris...

Plus, dear God, I'd have to really know a guy super well to wear those things with him AND if MY h had gotten it for me, there's no way it would not cross my mind, WHILE I was wearing it.

So you can be sure that IF it happened as you think, you were on her mind --wrecking her time with him, (so there.)



I know, I know, I know....get over it - and I will....but it just makes me sick to my stomach sometimes that I bought him such a nice gift that I intended for us....that I bought out of love. Part of me hopes that she burns all of it in the trash. I will now brace myself and my ego for the 2x4s.

2 x 4's Already given. And you know, down the road (not now, not yet) you can buy her new things...Plus you'll be weird with her if she does wear those "Old" things, right?

Even though you are NOT at all "SURE" "she wore it all for him"...you are doing some lovely harm to yourself now for sure. Put the Samarai sword away, Crimson!


Other than that, I am doing OK. I am putting her and her needs first and living the life that has bloomed in the wake of our divorce...I am being the new me and slowly but surely she is starting to notice I think....but more importantly trust it.

This happened:

The other morning I bought her a dozen and a half roses and brought them to her condo as she was getting ready for her day. Later in the day I texted her at work telling her that I bought them for her because I woke up that morning just wanting to love her. Her reply? "Thanks Chris. Each day I think I heal from our past a little more. I look forward to moving forward on this journey."

That was about as positive as I could expect.

well, I think you did expect more. What was it? I'm being sincere. You are not too thrilled with the reminder of her pain? Fair enough. And what about YOUR pain? How she treated you during the divorce was not as well as you treated her. That's a fact. But then I suppose if we were to get our scorecards out, the ones we all threw away (but sometimes go back and get out of the trash) she'd say she was ahead in the marriage and she MIGHT be right

but in the divorce? She'd lose. All I'm saying is I need to hear her own 2 things. 1) that she grossly misjudged you in the divorce proceedings and impugned your integrity or let her dad, for which I would need to hear a retraction.

AND my other concern, already touched on, is the miraculous timing of her "interest" in a R with you. Coming so soon/along with your refusal to release the embryo, is suspect. I'd need a lot of reassurance on that issue to even consider really moving forward.

Ask her outright if you two would even be talking, if it were not for the embryo. IF you are not ok with that, run it by your IC.

So...that is most of it for now. I have done another stupid thing or two, pretty much all just snooping because I have trust issues still (just being honest) and want to see if something is being hidden from me. Still, we are doing well...son is doing well....and my family, well, that's another post.

More later.

Crimson....awww hell, we're all friends...you can call me Chris if you want to.


I don't really get the snooping. Do you think she is still seeing "David" the OM?

Are you worried she'll go back to David after she has the embryo implanted?

I mean, I can see the fear about her embryo concerns for sure. Like maybe she is using you.

But the snooping won't read her mind on that, so what is it you are actually looking for?
Plus you are risking a lot b/c she'll freak out if she finds out you are snooping, won't she?

I could see you blowing this, right there. I'd be very careful about the GOAL of snooping and I'd assess the downside risk carefully NOW before you do anymore of that.

Just my .02

((( )))



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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Doesn't the snooping only fuel negative emotions? Jealousy, anger, hurt. Leave it alone. I get the trust thing. It has to be earned. But you probably only hurt yourself with this curiosity.


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Crimson

I'm sorry if my last post to you was so brutal that it made you scurry for the hills. COME BACK....it's safe now. Maybe your wife is finally on the same page as you and all will be what it never was before...so it's okay you can return

The water is warm... cool


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,326
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Crimson Offline OP
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Oh geez, it wasn't that....things have been out of control busy. I wanted to find a time when I could sit an write enough - moments have been fleeting. XW has been back at the house a lot and I have committed to myself to NOT bury myself in my laptop when she is there with S.....not going back THERE again. smile

The points that you brought up are quite valid, 25, I can shirk any of them. And I assure you they either have been or will be covered in counseling -- we are still going. The affection is getting better, we sleep in the same bed again -- and so on.

One thing gets to me, though, 25. You may be singlehandedly responsible for me finally determining that in order for me to move forward there are elements of the past that I need to let go of. Specifically, perceptually reality differences between me and XW....i.e., how she saw me during the divorce and how I actually was. What of that stuff, if any, is worth revisiting at this point? We both saw the same car wreck and we both described it differently. I cannot invalidate her reality any more than she can invalidate mine.

The snooping is an unhealthy compulsion born out of a feeling of not know what is going on (real or imagined) - I am trying to put a collar on it and told my IC that I had done it. She quickly lit me up for violating her boundaries....and she was/is right.

More later.....

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Originally Posted By: Crimson
Oh geez, it wasn't that....things have been out of control busy. I wanted to find a time when I could sit an write enough - moments have been fleeting. XW has been back at the house a lot and I have committed to myself to NOT bury myself in my laptop when she is there with S.....not going back THERE again. smile

The points that you brought up are quite valid, 25, I can shirk any of them. And I assure you they either have been or will be covered in counseling -- we are still going. The affection is getting better, we sleep in the same bed again -- and so on.

One thing gets to me, though, 25. You may be singlehandedly responsible for me finally determining that in order for me to move forward there are elements of the past that I need to let go of. Specifically, perceptually reality differences between me and XW....i.e., how she saw me during the divorce and how I actually was.


My original point, if I recall it correctly, is that we can't always recall things the same way as our spouse.

SOME folks around here really want that; i.e. identical recall of events. I don't think it's realistic or necessary and for ME and MY H, not feasible. We saw things thru very different lenses.

I felt that seeing the past the same was Not as valuable as seeing our future the same way.


That's not to say that we should ignore harmful behaviors b/c of course the fear is, they'll be repeated! So there's a line in there somewhere we each have to find.

I THINK the issue wii be, What is it that you feel so afraid of repeating (or having her repeat) that you have to know she sees it similarly enough, to you,

versus, what things are simply not that crucial? I can't answer except for the obvious ones, like affairs or no sex, or significant deceit.

I qualify deceit that way for 2 reasons. One is for the "white lies" that are NOT important or said to give someone an advantage but are said to save someone's feelings. Don't get bogged down in those (IMO).

The other "Deceit" is the kind our priest mentioned when we married (one of TWO useful things he told us...) which was that "of course deceit in a marriage isn't desirable, but don't give your spouse cause for deceit.

EXAMPLE: If a wife dents the car & tells her h, and her h just loses his mind over it, yells and goes off on her,

the next time she gets a fender bender, or anything like that, OF COURSE she's going to want to get it repaired and Not tell her h... IN that scenario, the priest said "the h is as guilty of wrongdoing as much if not more, as the wife...don't over react to the mishaps of life."

RE: Your behavior during the divorce, that's slightly different. From what I recall, it was pretty honorable, once the dust settled. Hers, not so much.

Yes, I'm biased but I'm also trying really hard not to be...

her family may have played too big a role in her view. Maybe you can get a tiny bit around this by mentioning how her father saw your behavior and how hurt you were b/c you KNOW FOR A FACT

you tried your hardest to be more than fair...to behave better than you would have before b/c you DID change. You were dong your best to be a man of strength and honor, and I believe with all my heart that thou usually (no, not always but you're human and I believe MOSTLY )

you put her needs and your son's ahead of yours at every turn, short of being a doormat (and even that "no doormat" choice, was partly b/c you wanted her to still see you in a good light!!)

MAYBE by discussing that, (i.e. the father's views) you can indirectly get to asking her if her views of you in that area, remain the same.

I do think if my h believed certain negative things about me that were not true, well, there are things he could believe about me that might be unacceptable for me.

I can't say off the top of my head what they are, but they do exist.
Dang, I'm not clearing this up for you much, am I?




What of that stuff, if any, is worth revisiting at this point? We both saw the same car wreck and we both described it differently. I cannot invalidate her reality any more than she can invalidate mine.

Not sure yet. I'll ponder that some more.

For now, I would say You CAN explore some things, without dragging them out or badgering or belaboring it to death, AND without making sure you see things identically. It is okay to see things differently.

However You must be allowed to "present another theory" as in, your side. As in your perspective and frankly, I think you'll regret not mentioning some of the hurtful things HE said and seemed to believe and of course your underlying fear that she believes those things...

you are allowed to say "may I mention how it appeared to ME?" But you are not allowed to insist she agree with you. In any case I would need time to process new information and so would you and so would she.

Of course, let's not forget your parents have uttered a few things that were not so helpful to the cause, and some of those things might not be valid either. And some might be.

Parents do tend to mean well. So if she says "But my dad was just thinking about ME", you are nuts not to mention the reciprocal reality that your parents were too.

I think the key here is how the forgiveness work is going for her, for you and for both families.
Don't ignore that.

The snooping is an unhealthy compulsion born out of a feeling of not know what is going on (real or imagined) - I am trying to put a collar on it and told my IC that I had done it. She quickly lit me up for violating her boundaries....and she was/is right.

More later.....


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
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I am profoundly aware of the number of people that are scattered across the boards in search of good news or good developments in a story that was once beyond hopeless.

As noted, XW and I have been gradually getting closer over the span of the last 3 months or so. Lots of time together as a family, joint counseling, and many, many, many long late night talks. It has been much slower than our last attempt – and that has been a big difference maker for both of us. We have both grown a lot, changed a lot and are basically not the same people that divorced – which is a good thing.

I have applied no pressure for anything…relationship…living together….I have just been content to let things organically evolve while just living differently. Well, to cut to the chase she has been living at the house for the last two weeks and is moving stuff from her place back home. All of this was with no prompting or suggestion from me. In fact, when she got a little anxious about moving some of her clothes the other day while I was there I just softly told her she didn’t have to move anything and could take all the time she wants – or even move the stuff that was already there back. She worked through her emotions and continues to move.

So anyone who has been following my situation probably remembers the saga of the bed I bought her when she first moved out of the house to her own place. Today, she gave it away to a family along with the bunk bed that our son had at her place. Basically that means home is now our house together – unless they are going to sleep on the floor. J

There was a major breakthrough this week and the affection from her just opened up a ton. It was as if big chunks of the wall around her heart began to fall. It was out of the blue and the last thing I expected – even she commented on how she just felt “different”. Still, there is a lot to keep working on – and she started HER IC today. My IC, her IC and our joint IC are all in the same practice so it is literally a “village” approach!

That is all for now. Things are going well. We are all heading up to a cabin in the mountains tomorrow for the weekend. Off-grid bliss.

That’s all I’ve got for now.

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Awesome


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Originally Posted By: Crimson
I am profoundly aware of the number of people that are scattered across the boards in search of good news or good developments in a story that was once beyond hopeless.

As noted, XW and I have been gradually getting closer over the span of the last 3 months or so. Lots of time together as a family, joint counseling, and many, many, many long late night talks. It has been much slower than our last attempt – and that has been a big difference maker for both of us. We have both grown a lot, changed a lot and are basically not the same people that divorced – which is a good thing.

I have applied no pressure for anything…relationship…living together….I have just been content to let things organically evolve while just living differently. Well, to cut to the chase she has been living at the house for the last two weeks and is moving stuff from her place back home. All of this was with no prompting or suggestion from me. In fact, when she got a little anxious about moving some of her clothes the other day while I was there I just softly told her she didn’t have to move anything and could take all the time she wants – or even move the stuff that was already there back. She worked through her emotions and continues to move.

So anyone who has been following my situation probably remembers the saga of the bed I bought her when she first moved out of the house to her own place. Today, she gave it away to a family along with the bunk bed that our son had at her place. Basically that means home is now our house together – unless they are going to sleep on the floor. J

There was a major breakthrough this week and the affection from her just opened up a ton. It was as if big chunks of the wall around her heart began to fall. It was out of the blue and the last thing I expected – even she commented on how she just felt “different”. Still, there is a lot to keep working on – and she started HER IC today. My IC, her IC and our joint IC are all in the same practice so it is literally a “village” approach!

That is all for now. Things are going well. We are all heading up to a cabin in the mountains tomorrow for the weekend. Off-grid bliss.

That’s all I’ve got for now.

Crimson


Great news, Crim!

Your approach to getting back together was much like ours, slowly as the time seemed right. No pressure, no guilt.

We were going to the mtns this month (our anniversary is Oct 20th) but decided to go to hot springs in NM. Can't wait!

Let me know about the cabin, we're always looking for a good getaway up north. Have a wonderful time! I'm really so, so happy for you but especially for S.


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Good morning, bug! So I will try to remember to report back on the condition of the cabins - but Google AZ Cabin Fever - they're up in Heber Overgaard outside of Payson. They have a pretty easy-to-navigate website and great rates - one BR cabins for like $99/night. We are very much looking forward to getting out of town.

25 - going back to your post for a minute, I know to my core that I was trying to be kind during the D process. Mostly, for better or for worse, because I didn't want to make my situation WORSE and push her away even faster. Was she as equally kind? No. Did she see ANYTHING I did as kindness? Nah, I don't think so - but I have to make a modicum of peace with that. I talked to my IC about it this week and she basically said that she (XW) was in a very, very major state of fear at that point.....afraid of losing S, afraid of not being able to survive on her own -- and when you are in that place you are basically in "survival mode" and your ability to objectively process the actions of others is severely compromised....ESPECIALLY the actions of the person at the center of the storm - in this case, yours truly. I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but at the time she was kind of like a cornered animal - scared to death and willing to fight if it meant her life was on the line. Unfortunately, I think I was viewed as the aggressor in that situation - even though I know I was not. As a result, anything that I did or said that went against what she wanted was viewed as an act of aggression or contempt. For example, fighting for equal time with our S -- she has since told me that she was afraid I was going to try to take him away from her...and since my dad and sister are attorneys (federal prosecutors) I had the "horsepower" to do it. Soooo - she fought like hell for custody. NONE of what she feared was real - but in that "cornered animal" state I am sure it looked very real to her.

Anyhooo, what do I do with that? The time is not yet here for me to bring all of that to the table -- but it is coming. We are doing very, very, very well with talking and working out what are feelings are/were -- so we will get there. I guess what I was trying to say was that there are certain things that I am going to have to let go of to some degree. Many of them I already have. I'll say it again - because of you I am pretty much in a place where I understand that agreeing on the past is not as important as agreeing on the future.

More later.

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Wow. Good insights.

Love Payson, thanks for the tip.


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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Hi everyone.

Well, things have continued to improve at a very decent pace. At times, I am genuinely shocked. I often wonder if this is "too good to be true".

I can't underscore what I am about to say enough - but, there has been a major revelation about some SEVERE childhood traumas that plagued her for nearly a decade of her life. Really, really, nasty stuff that, without a doubt, played a role in our marriage. For all intents and purposes, she literally locked away nearly all of these events and the memories surrounding them - her IC basically assigned it as PTSD - which I think is a very accurate description based upon the severity of the events. She is working through them in a brave, impressive manner and I am doing my best to support her.

To my TOTAL shock and surprise, she said the other night that the traumas in her life played such a role in our marriage that the divorce wasn't really my fault. I still accept my role - I was a contributor for certain....but there was MAJOR damage she was lugging around that I had no idea about. Just to hear her say that was a moment in which my soul could actually breath after the last 3 years.

I, like many, asked on this board what ever happened to the GOOD memories that she had of us. She basically told me this week that in order to do what she felt she had to do she had to lock away ANY and all good memories of me. That made sense. So....we have been keeping a journal together where we both will jot down positive memories that we have with each other. It has been very helpful.

I am keeping my IC up, and our JC as well.....we are doing great, dare I say! smile

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I'm so happy to hear a positive story. As someone that is facing D, do u you have any insights you would care to share on my sitch? Oh BtW, Roll TIDE! Love your handle!!


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Well, to clarify, "Crimson" is for "Cream and Crimson" - a la Indiana University. Though I do have a Tide friend or two -and they are virtually unbearable during football season.

With regard to your pending divorce? The best advice that I can give you based on what I have been through is so peacefully accept that it is going to happen. As a coping strategy, you might want to even treat it as if it already has and begin defining your post-marriage life.

Does that mean give up? Nope.

Does that mean slide into depression? Nope.

What it means is something that you already know -- the marriage/relationship that you once knew is dead and even if you reunite it will never be back again the way you knew it.

Also, and I got this advice a lot, remember that D is just a point in time...another day....just a process and a set of signatures on paper. You are already living the reality of divorce for the most part. If you divorce on a Monday, the sun will come up again on Tuesday and you will keep moving forward, my friend.

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Originally Posted By: Crimson
Hi everyone.

Well, things have continued to improve at a very decent pace. At times, I am genuinely shocked. I often wonder if this is "too good to be true".

I can't underscore what I am about to say enough - but, there has been a major revelation about some SEVERE childhood traumas that plagued her for nearly a decade of her life. Really, really, nasty stuff that, without a doubt, played a role in our marriage. For all intents and purposes, she literally locked away nearly all of these events and the memories surrounding them - her IC basically assigned it as PTSD - which I think is a very accurate description based upon the severity of the events. She is working through them in a brave, impressive manner and I am doing my best to support her.

To my TOTAL shock and surprise, she said the other night that the traumas in her life played such a role in our marriage that the divorce wasn't really my fault. I still accept my role - I was a contributor for certain....but there was MAJOR damage she was lugging around that I had no idea about. Just to hear her say that was a moment in which my soul could actually breath after the last 3 years.

I, like many, asked on this board what ever happened to the GOOD memories that she had of us. She basically told me this week that in order to do what she felt she had to do she had to lock away ANY and all good memories of me. That made sense.

I guess she's saying that she had to vilify you, to leave. Okayyy but what happens the next time she's deeply wounded by you? I mean, chances are even YOU will get annoying or on her nerves...


So....we have been keeping a journal together where we both will jot down positive memories that we have with each other. It has been very helpful.

I am keeping my IC up, and our JC as well.....we are doing great, dare I say! smile

Crimson


We are all pulling for you! blush

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/03/14 10:26 AM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
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So what should I be doing, then, 25? Trust me - I do not say that with and ounce of snark -- I honestly don't know. I am going to IC to deal with the type of things that you identified - she is going to IC for the same, and we are going to joint MC (though not "M'd") to try to find our footing. The standing order right now from our MC is communicate, communicate, communicate....something we both did not do well.

Hopefully, as it relates to your question, we are driving toward a point where the annoyances and nerve-wracking (which yes, will occur) will not push us to the brink again because we are working on developing healthier skills.

There is a lot to plow through, and I am charging forward with love and compassion for myself, her, and our son. But yeah, I struggle at times.

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Is there anyone of her family who know about her experiences as a child?


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Sandi - her sister, who also lives here. They were both subjected to the same abuse. She has recently confronted her mother about is - so she know. Her mother was at BEST oblivious to it...possibly complicit, and possibly allowed it on her watch, as the abuse was at the hands of her partner who was positioned as a "friend" for that 10 year period. I am not sure if her dad knows -- but I suspect he at least suspected it at a minimum. According to XW, his quote many years ago was "I might have seen something"...and "if I would have known I would have gotten you girls out of there earlier"....meaning ending the marriage.

It is really rough stuff.

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If I may touch on this topic as a L and as a "witness" to something similar, maybe she ought Not to confront her mom so much

as it will not really help to have her mother 1) admit she knew but was not strong OR concerned enough to stop it,

OR

2) did not know b/c she chose not to or was oblivious to it, in which case, how does airing it all now help?

3) her mom really did not know, and the Guilty Party lied well enough that its reasonable for her mother not to have known...if that is the case, why guilt her, NOW?

Just tell her what happened and move on with healing.
If it were me (as the mother, not the child), I'd need some counseling myself.

I cannot imagine the mother NOT feeling blamed...and that's crucial for your w to understand.

Does she really need to blame her mom? What else is all the disclosure for?


If she does want to hold her mom to blame, Why? Who is helped? Who is hurt?

If she says she does Not wish to hold her mom responsible, then why keep at it with her mom?

Why not just work to exorcise it within herself, and maybe let her sister and she support each other through it?

Also, never let yourself get lumped in with "men are pigs" comparisons.

She probably won't consciously do it, but look where you are...
You will need to ask the MC how to make sure you are NOT blamed in ANY way, again.

I say that b/c I think at least at a subconscious level, your xw DID overreact to your transgressions out of a neurotic fear, somewhat explained by her history,

which she only now chose to reveal to you. That was and is UNFAIR to you.

Sad as her experiences were, and I know what that's like, you were victimized by HER failure to address it. Don't forget not to be a victim again.

Make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Hi 25!

I think for her, confronting her mother on it gives her a sense of "moving on" - if that makes sense. And let me clarify - there was no heated, yelling confrontation. Rather, a brief series of text messages in which she basically told her that she has unlocked old memories about everything that happened and that he suggests that she go get counseling. Which, her mom is doing. I know that she is not out for a pound of flesh - she is more interested in her own healing and I think part of that for her was informing her mother. For now, she is keeping her distance from her as she works her way through it. I think she just wanted her mom to acknowledge that it happened because she has lived her entire life NOT doing that. I kind of liken it to that scene in Forest Gump where Jenny goes back to the house that she grew up in and was abused and started throwing rocks at it -- and collapses in tears in the dirt -- and then Forest says in the voice-over "I guess sometimes there just aren't enough rocks".

As far as "men are pigs" goes, it wasn't a man. It was a very masculine gay woman. Hence, looking in the rearview she has had some very pronounced gender-role issues that ALWAYS existed. As well as issues when people make jokes about a straight person being gay (which is basically an olympic sport for guys). Remember she once out of the blue said to me "You have to promise me that you're not gay" -- after meeting a friend of mine. But then refused to tie it back to her childhood in any way?

The more that I research, talk to my C, and talk to her - it is becoming clear that she was not deliberately hiding it from me. She clearly had PTSD and had erased the memories - which is not uncommon for survivors of that kind of abuse. After a few difficult things happened during this reconciliation attempt, it all came back....and I mean it REALLY came back. It's like she had taken all of that, locked it in a safe, and swallowed it whole. The safe sure as hell wasn't airtight and bits and pieces of that pain came out throughout our relationship....explosive temper at times...inability to communicate and show affection....social withdraw.....I could go on. My C has told me a million times that pain does not go away -- it just comes out in other places/ways. As you implied, 25, this abuse was a third member of our marriage that I did not know about.

We are trying to heal our M, and I am trying to help her heal and cope with all that is coming back to her. I must admit, however, that it is exhausting -- any thoughts on how to support someone through this would be appreciated. Especially when working on the R.

Crimson

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Crimson wrote:

We are trying to heal our M, and I am trying to help her heal and cope with all that is coming back to her. I must admit, however, that it is exhausting -- any thoughts on how to support someone through this would be appreciated. Especially when working on the R.


Don't let it become a part of your life...for long. Seriously. At some point she will have to let it go. Period.

Easier said than done, but absolutely 100% mandatory. I don't know how far I'd go into a reconciliation if I had any doubts about her resolution and healing b/c I fear you will get sucked into some type of crappy negative scenario and it's NOT your job to heal her.

Remember that. It's not your job to heal (fix) her. That is her job.

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/03/14 11:32 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Did something specific cause her repressed memory to unlock?


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Yes, it was something specific -- but I would rather not go into it. She said (days prior to some of her memories resurfacing) that it felt like her entire heart had been broken wide open and was left raw. It was a very emotionally painful event - it just kind of started the whole ball rolling.

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Oh, no need for details. The reaxon I asked is based on another person and that situation. Thet also had a specific incident to open the pasr for them. It was all quite shocking and hard to believe.


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Really? I am beginning to read up on it and the occurrence of a "trigger" incident that cracks open lost or suppressed negative memories and experiences is common.

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Many, (not all, but many), "repressed memories" end up being false. "Recovered Memories" are Not as valid & common as once believed.

That is NOT to say your wife's memories are false, at all! It's Just that I've seen people go to jail for things that never happened (see the McMartin cases in Washington State, and a lot of others)....so I'm always a bit skeptical when I hear those terms.


But I can tell you one thing, that's a big set of "luggage" SHE has to deal with and it effects YOU, so I guess you need to be careful what you wish for...b/c in a way it does not matter if it happened exactly as she said or only a little as she described, b/c it's a big scary monster, to HER...so

is SHE getting help for any of this?

Last edited by 25yearsmlc; 11/07/14 06:16 PM.

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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She is getting a lot of help, 25. She has her own IC that she has been meeting with weekly to cover this topic, how it relates/related to our relationship. On top of the counseling that we attend together. My IC, her IC and our MC are all part of the same practice (my IC owns it) and so they have been taking a collaborative approach with us -- we have ok'd them sharing our sessions among themselves. As far as counseling goes, it really is the best possible scenario for us.

As far as the validity of her claim(s), and I am not saying this as the "white knight" -I believe they are valid. Not solely because she say so, but because over the years I had been receiving tiny little pieces of the puzzle all along and didn't know it - and sure as hell didn't know how to put them together. However, and most damning, there are now medical symptoms that she is being treated for (after years of living with them) that validate her memories.

It is a lot to take on. But what am I to do? I am not going to leave her because of it. I am there to support and try to take care of myself and our son. This is not easy - but I sincerely feel that I am doing the right thing.

Moreover - things HAVE gotten better...a lot better....since we began this reconciliation attempt. Honestly, 25, I wouldn't con you on that. Communication has done a 180 (OK, it's like a 153 some days but it is significant progress) -- and we are more aware of ourselves, each other, and how we treat one another.

She's actually in Palm Springs for the weekend visiting a friend. So it's me and the boy -- just like old times, hellish as they may have been. Before she left, she asked "Are you guys gonna be OK" -- and I basically smiled and said that we have been a duo for a long time and the we would be just fine. Anyhooooo.......have to take the boy to see Big Hero 6 this morning. Not gonna lie - I kinda wanna see it too.

Hope you are all well...love you, 25! smile

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I understand what 25yrs meant about false memories. That's why I asked if there was anyone who could back up or remember some the experiences she says happened.

It doesn't seem to get a lot easier, does it, Crimson? Life always has new challenges to throw at us. I really pray she can heal over this problem. If I were her, I would need my H to believe me, above anyone else. It would be vital to me. I think you are showing her that you do and are supporting her every way you can.

25yrs is also right about not letting this suck you in as far as letting it take over your life. I hope this will not define your R with each other. I think you've learned you cannot rescue her (at least I hope you have), but this may prove to test you, IDK. Let the professionals help her and you just be you (the improved Crimson). So glad to hear the good side of things.

(hugs)


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Hey there, Sandi - I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not (and am too lazy to roll back and see) but her sister can back up much of what she is saying and the memories from her childhood. In fact, when it all started coming back they met up to talk, remember and cry for awhile here at the house....S and I took off to let them have some privacy and peace.

Our "counseling team" has been very good about guiding us through this and making sure that it does not consume us. I am keeping my life at the same time and working making my new life permanent in the face of another person being in it....her, specifically/especially. It is hard at times - and I can sense my self looking back over my shoulder and seeing the old me looking back - but it passes. Is that normal?? I do not want to go back to that old life -- neither of us do.

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Hey Crimson, what a ton of bricks, huh? I'm not an expert but I think how she acted in the marriage begins to make more sense in light of her revelations. My heart goes out to you both.

I'm glad you believed her because it's fear of people not believing the story that keeps these things buried and ruins lives. Our secrets keep us sick.

It seems you're getting excellent counseling support, which you all 3 need through this. The ripples of this go wide.

My best to your family. (( ))


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Hope all is well.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Hey there, Bug. Thanks for dropping by. smile

Things are going well. Last week was the first "difficult" week that we have had since starting this dance again. I can own the fact that I did something pretty stupid and boundary-breaking due to my own insecurities - we talked about it in MC on Sunday - and it got a bit tense. We both had some faults to own, and I think we did. We are bouncing back, and I know that I am trying to maintain perspective that there is likely no reconciliation without hiccups and someone hosing something up.....well, both people hosing things up to be honest.

XW (now GF/XW) is tackling her issues from her past and trying to R at the same time. That is no ordinary stunt to try....oh, and I dropped my antidepressants cold turkey about 2 months ago now - so I "feel" things a tad deeper now. That just adds to the mix.

Still - I believe we are traveling in a good direction....just a bad week, to be honest. This week has been much better. smile

How is your deal coming along? Do you guys have little "dust-ups"??

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Quote:
oh, and I dropped my antidepressants cold turkey about 2 months ago now - so I "feel" things a tad deeper now. That just adds to the mix.


Oh please be careful. Was this with your doctor's permission? Usually, one has to taper off AD's.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I was careful, but it was not under a doctor's guidance. Over time I had tapered from 60mg to 40mg to 20mg. I was on 20 for quite a few months and then just bailed. I was on 20 for years during the marriage. I just felt it was time to move along.

I was fortunate and did not have any serious withdrawal symptoms at all -- my IC told me that it cab feel like "lighten bolts striking across your brain" - but I had none of that at all. There was a day or two where I felt like I was fighting off the urge to cry, but that was about it. I would not recommend what I did to anyone, though -- I was just physiologically lucky I guess....the ball could have bounce in a totally different direction.

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Yes, we've had dust-ups and anger and all the stuff that makes us human. On occasion I've had "What the hell was I thinking?" pop-up because it's work to have an adult R. But the good outweighs the bad by far.

The difference now is we work to solve it, not just close our eyes, insert fingers in our ears while repeating loudly "I can't hear you" smile

I try to approach difficult things from a place of love, not anger. It's as simple as letting the anger pass and having the discussion in the context of "this person loves me" as opposed to "what was that all about, a$$hole?" smirk That doesn't mean we don't express anger, just in a different way.

She has a lot of stuff to wade through and it'll be a long, slow process. Eat your Wheaties everyday and continue to strengthen your emotional boundaries.(wow, that takes me back to our early days here with all the boundaries discussions we had)

You can't fix her.

Last edited by labug; 11/19/14 02:47 PM.

Me 57/H 58
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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Hey Bug - Thanks for the advice.

Yeah, I can't fix her at all....I let go of that notion long before we even began speaking again. I can try to HELP her where I can, but I can't reach in and put back together anything that is/was broken or generally out of whack.

I think the challenge for us will continue to be restoration, rebuilding and the communication therein. I had IC last night and C told me that I am much farther down the path of healing and healthy relationships than XWGF is. As such my ability to communicate, take criticism lovingly, and to openly love is a bit stronger than hers. She is still wounded and try to heal...I have been in IC for over a year and lord knows the folks here are good for whipping you back into shape/line. So when she asks for "honest and open communication" I think she wants it to be 2-way, but it isn't yet. We will get there, but for now I am going to have to be patient as she works through her stuff....the relationship "stuff" that I have already tackled as well as the other stuff that is bubbling up from her past. My C said "you deserve a lot from her, but you aren't going to get it at this moment".

That is not to say that things aren't going well. We have made a lot of progress. Thankfully, I know that progress in this arena is not linear - and things will go a few different directions.

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You have a wise C and you've grown tremendously. You're on the right track.


Me 57/H 58
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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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I still need reminders not to fix others.

During the S S21 and I went out to dinner, just the 2 of us a couple of times a month. We got to talk a lot during those dinners and especially oont he drive to and from. Driving is a good time to talk with kids, I've learned.

When H came back in the picture, that changed and when we went out it was the 3 of us. Different dynamic.

I missed the one-to-one with S21 so last week he and I went to dinner and we decided to make it a regular thing, twice a month. During the dinner, S21 said: "Y'know Mom, when Dad comes home and is talking about things that happen at his job, you should just listen. Sometimes you try to fix things and that's not what he needs. He just needs you to listen."

So I choked back my defensive response and said, "You are absolutely right. Thanks for the reminder."


Me 57/H 58
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Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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"Choked back my defensive response".......does that ever get easy?

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I think it does, especially if I take care of myself.

The response still appears in my mind, I now know to recognize it for what it is and let it go. I don't let the need to be right take over.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
Caroline Myss
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Originally Posted By: labug
Yes, we've had dust-ups and anger and all the stuff that makes us human. On occasion I've had "What the hell was I thinking?" pop-up because it's work to have an adult R. But the good outweighs the bad by far.

The difference now is we work to solve it, not just close our eyes, insert fingers in our ears while repeating loudly "I can't hear you" smile

I try to approach difficult things from a place of love, not anger. It's as simple as letting the anger pass and having the discussion in the context of "this person loves me" as opposed to "what was that all about, a$$hole?" smirk That doesn't mean we don't express anger, just in a different way.


TODAY was a great day to catch up on Crimson's thread. Then I came to find this ^^ gem. Thanks...SIGH...

So yeah, Crimson, it's not a linear OR Smooth road, maybe ever? I mean, a part of me likes feeling as if it's too late to start over ONLY in that it feels settled and as if I know that when you make the best of something, you make it good!

But there are times I say, WHY Did I believe everything would be better/different?
Was I in denial?

Other times I wonder how the heck other couples in history, stayed together and SEEMED at peace. Were they all lying or did they CHOOSE to be happy? And if it's the latter, which it must have been for some, how'd they Implement that?

-

You can't fix her.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
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Originally Posted By: labug
I think it does, especially if I take care of myself.

The response still appears in my mind, I now know to recognize it for what it is and let it go. I don't let the need to be right take over.


I'm nodding again...damn Bug, you're good! Thanks to you both.

Wish self respect was a different "Color" than pride, so I could tell the difference more easily...


M: 57 H: 60
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H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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So we had date night last night (Bug if you're ever in PHX go to Taco Guild - delicious - but I digress). My parents kept S overnight and were quite happy to do so. We had MC this morning and it went well...certainly not without it emotional moments but we were able to walk out holding hands which is always a plus. To my surprise, XWGF suggested we both go pick up S. I usually go by myself. It was the first time since summer August of 2011 that we have all been in one place together. It went really well - hugs were exchanged and XFGF walked around their new house (they moved here from Indiana since BD). Progress....big step.

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Great news Crimson,

You are a source of inspiration.

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Alright, so I guess I am checking in and throwing a question and looking for advice (nothing is wrong - just finding my way).

So we are 100% moved into the house together again - she got rid of her condo and we have moved her stuff back. In a certain sense (and I say this jokingly) I am also happy to reunite with my couches and chairs....and she even is returning with a new flat screen. That alone almost makes it ALL worth it! (Joking! If I can't laugh at this I will probably just keep crying -- and I do not want that!). smile We are continuing to learn how to live better lives together and move past our respective hurts from the past. She is till in IC for her childhood trauma - which is good, because the more I learn the more I realize that it played a SERIOUS role in he decline of our marriage.

Sex. That old thing again. We jumped back into the saddle again awhile ago so it is part of the relationship, but it is kind of "mechanical" in the sense that there is really no foreplay or build up per se.....it just kind of happens - usually in the morning before S wakes up for the day and we start moving a million MPH to get out of the house in time for work. Thus far, we don't really kiss. Not like people passionate about one another kiss. It's not me...I want to - but she still has that wall up. Her IC says that a lot of it has to do with the sexual trauma and abuse from her childhood that makes intimate connections difficult. In my single life, I got used to foreplay as part of the process, and my ego kind of takes it hard -- as if there is something wrong with me physically or something. She tells me repeatedly that it is NOT me. Still, initiating sex can be a humbling experience because if I am the one putting it out there - through touching or something - it's more often that not politely declined. If she starts it, I jump on board and feel almost like I have hit the lottery.

Today she texted me at work and said that we should practice kissing. Though I am thrilled by the prospect, I am also somewhat ego-bruised because it sounds like something you have to do with someone that you are repulsed by. And, sadly, in my head I think about the OM she was with for 6 months and wonder if she had to "practice" there too....I doubt it. But I know, I know -- it's a different kind of relationship. She said in her text that it's one of those things where we just need to practice until it feels natural. So tell me....

Is THAT part of the rebuilding process?? I have been off of my ADs for about three months now and my sex drive is kind of off the chart right now...so I know I don't need the practice or to "warm back up" to her.

Is this normal? Vets? Help!

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Quote:
Today she texted me at work and said that we should practice kissing. Though I am thrilled by the prospect, I am also somewhat ego-bruised because it sounds like something you have to do with someone that you are repulsed by. And, sadly, in my head I think about the OM she was with for 6 months and wonder if she had to "practice" there too....I doubt it. But I know, I know -- it's a different kind of relationship. She said in her text that it's one of those things where we just need to practice until it feels natural. So tell me....

Is THAT part of the rebuilding process?? I have been off of my ADs for about three months now and my sex drive is kind of off the chart right now...so I know I don't need the practice or to "warm back up" to her.


Imo, I think it is normal and a very good sign (look at all the programs and stuff out there to do that)... it's exactly what my stbxw DIDN'T want to do because she didn't believe that those "things" should be "forced", that they should just be easy and natural...

She wants to do the work, including in that area...

Be thankful!!
smile

Last edited by TSquared2; 12/23/14 06:38 PM.

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Agreed its normal stuff. Read Passionate Marriage by D Schnarch. He talks about doing those things. Also discusses things like hugging until relaxed, eyes-open kissing( you're Probably NOT THERE YET).

Good luck...its inspiring to read your story although I think my outcome will be more like Rick's.


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Just wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas Crimson!! Glad to see thing are coming together for you.


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1st BD 11/10
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Paul's suggestion is a good one.

Merry Christmas!


Me 57/H 58
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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Thanks, LITB....you are still my DB "hero" in terms of endurance! smile

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Originally Posted By: Crimson
Thanks, LITB....you are still my DB "hero" in terms of endurance! smile


I appreciate your kind words, Crimson. You aren't any different my friend. I'd say you probably surpass me in the endurance department. Glad to see that things have come full circle for you.


Me:45 ExW:48
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HOw are things with you, LITB?


Me 57/H 58
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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Originally Posted By: Crimson
Alright, so I guess I am checking in and throwing a question and looking for advice (nothing is wrong - just finding my way).

So we are 100% moved into the house together again - she got rid of her condo and we have moved her stuff back. In a certain sense (and I say this jokingly) I am also happy to reunite with my couches and chairs....and she even is returning with a new flat screen. That alone almost makes it ALL worth it! (Joking! If I can't laugh at this I will probably just keep crying -- and I do not want that!). smile We are continuing to learn how to live better lives together and move past our respective hurts from the past. She is till in IC for her childhood trauma - which is good, because the more I learn the more I realize that it played a SERIOUS role in he decline of our marriage.

Sex. That old thing again. We jumped back into the saddle again awhile ago so it is part of the relationship, but it is kind of "mechanical" in the sense that there is really no foreplay or build up per se.....it just kind of happens - usually in the morning before S wakes up for the day and we start moving a million MPH to get out of the house in time for work.

Since you went out on an intimacy limb here, I'll just have to pray that my h never reads this...okay, I know for ME and I've read that for many other women, morning is when our hormones and desire levels are lowest.

This especially stinks for my m b/c h's desire is highest in the EARLY morning and that has long been a challenge for us. I'm a night owl. He's a guy who has to get up hideously early for his work... (Obviously all of this can vary with people AND with phases and schedule changes which we all go through! SO Why not ask her?)

My point here is that our morning "rendezvous" are more aimed at keeping h happy, more than a mutually enjoyable experience for both of us. Is that what is happening in your situation?

Don't get me wrong. I love the intimacy, regardless of whether we both get our "cookies." We all make love for so many reasons Other than purely physical pleasure.

I recall being very depressed after my dad's death. I can't say I "enjoyed" sex for the sex -- but I very much wanted the closeness, and the comfort, and the companionship and tenderness of ML anyhow...do you know what I mean?

Anyhow, in terms of physical pleasure, morning is not it for me. Also

More Foreplay is increasingly needed as well.
I hate admitting that but yes, age HAS started to affect things in both of us. That's why I went to my doctor and said I missed having my "full mojo" and I got a RX for hormones. They have made a difference for me and I'm so glad I went.

I say all this to say that your w's choice puzzles me. The lack of foreplay, IF I read your comments correctly, is NOT at your end, but at hers? Are you positive that is what she is requesting? That's very unusual...especially for a woman

Frankly, since the whole childhood trauma thing is vague, I can't wrap my brain around what role that would have in this either. I mean, do you think there is some sort of connection? Was your sex life better before, I mean before all this marital ordeal --like when you first fell in love?

Did she mislead you then, or do you feel it was honestly better/different than now? IF So, in what way?

Yes I know it's "fine" now, but I also sense an element lacking for you. Don't sweep that under the rug Crimson. Really catch yourself on the desire to "not make a big deal out of it." You have to talk about this more than usual.

I think it's a harbinger of something big. Perhaps and hopefully, something big that you two will address, work through and benefit from!

But ignoring that is dangerous to this frail r, which I know you are tenderly nurturing with the utmost care.



Thus far, we don't really kiss. Not like people passionate about one another kiss. It's not me...I want to - but she still has that wall up. Her IC says that a lot of it has to do with the sexual trauma and abuse from her childhood that makes intimate connections difficult.


really? Can you explain that in a way that you are comfortable with? I really don't get how a trauma can make someone want LESS foreplay or LESS of the non sexual intimacy. It seems like it'd be the opposite to me, (but what do I know?)
From what you are implying, you guys are more about the act itself and that's why I don't get the connection between her wanting less kissing/foreplay, and a childhood issue.

Also, at some point dear God, she MUST get past this. Sorry, really I am so sorry. But that's just reality.
I don't just say that for your sake (mostly, sure, but not all). SHE deserves to enjoy the full spectrum of loving sex, which she's denying herself. Sadly, she may be denying some of that to you, AND all because of an event(s) from decades ago?

How has her sister handled it?

In my single life, I got used to foreplay as part of the process, and my ego kind of takes it hard -- as if there is something wrong with me physically or something. She tells me repeatedly that it is NOT me. Still, initiating sex can be a humbling experience because if I am the one putting it out there - through touching or something - it's more often that not politely declined. If she starts it, I jump on board and feel almost like I have hit the lottery.

Crimson, remember that you like me when you read my next paragraph bc it's NOT going to be easy to read, okay?

Ask yourself some hard questions about all this^^^....what if she does NOT change?
What if her desire is always going to be low or off, or what if you are made to feel "less than", b/c you want a passionate love life and she wants....a zygote implanted?

Sometimes we all get so invested in reconciling that we forget to ask ourselves if we want to be married to our spouses, or if we simply don't want to be the rejected one....you want her for your wife again? EVEN IF Sex isn't ever going to be what you want it to be?




Today she texted me at work and said that we should practice kissing. Though I am thrilled by the prospect, I am also somewhat ego-bruised because it sounds like something you have to do with someone that you are repulsed by. And, sadly, in my head I think about the OM she was with for 6 months and wonder if she had to "practice" there too....I doubt it. But I know, I know -- it's a different kind of relationship. She said in her text that it's one of those things where we just need to practice until it feels natural. So tell me....

Is THAT part of the rebuilding process??


Not sure, maybe ask LaBug that one. I happen to like that your w asked, however. She's not bottling it up and hoping you can read her mind, then blaming you for not knowing what she wants b/c "you should know". She actually initiated something related to sex, right? So that's a very good thing to me.


I have been off of my ADs for about three months now and my sex drive is kind of off the chart right now...so I know I don't need the practice or to "warm back up" to her.

Is this normal? Vets? Help!

Crimson


The first time my h ever experienced ED was when we very first reconciled...hey, talk about freaking me out.

You can imagine the thoughts that went through my head. But that's pretty resolved now so, thankfully, I'm not going to wonder about it all. Seriously.

I say this b/c I didn't expect it. I thought the opposite would happen and we'd rush into bed and get on with things!!

And later on, when we'd see each other unexpectedly, or when it seemed to "mean something" positive about our m, that did happen. It was definitely more passionate than usual. Which was great.

And which is what I'm hoping happens for you. I think You need to use all those new tools you have, for discussing this sensitive important topic.

Unlike political discussions or theological ones, which are important to me but which h does not always want to have, I cannot have sex with someone else...(not in THIS marriage anyhow, maybe my next life I'll do one of those "open" things)

So it's a need that has to be met inside the m. I think your w gets that. Can't be swept under the rug.

Hmmm, Crimson, track me down on the alternate universe if you can b/c I have some other suggestions but am not sure they're okay to post about here.

Good luck with this, and btw, any discussion of the embryo lately?

And I'm NOT asking that with a snarky face, just so you know. I'm only curious

Happy New Year buddy!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Originally Posted By: Crimson


Sex. That old thing again. We jumped back into the saddle again awhile ago so it is part of the relationship, but it is kind of "mechanical" in the sense that there is really no foreplay or build up per se.....it just kind of happens - usually in the morning before S wakes up for the day and we start moving a million MPH to get out of the house in time for work. Thus far, we don't really kiss. Not like people passionate about one another kiss. It's not me...I want to - but she still has that wall up. Her IC says that a lot of it has to do with the sexual trauma and abuse from her childhood that makes intimate connections difficult.



Crimson, I hesitate to post this because 1) I am not totally up on your sich, I have read a lot of it, but am by no means really familiar 2) 25years has already chimed in and imo everything she says is gold and 3) this is really personal stuff. BUT...(you knew that was coming)... When I read this I could relate to your W. Maybe we don't have the same thought process, but maybe there's something to it, so I'll say it.

I love morning sex. Totally my favorite. The best part of any day I don't have to get up super early. But I very well may be in the minority. So maybe your W actually likes it, maybe she is just being accommodating. It's probably worth figuring out.

And believe it or not, I understand about your W not wanting a lot of foreplay. Foreplay is a very intimate thing to do, and if you don't need it to "get there" then it's easier to just focus on the "getting there" and not have to expose yourself intimately. I am sorry to say I spent a lot of years doing that. H was very happy with our sex life (even in MC as he was listing off my faults he listed sex as a positive), and he thought I was, too. But it was, in fact, "mechanical", not a real connection. At least you have the wisdom to see that.

So I don't have any advice for you, I just wanted you to know that I could totally relate to your W on this one. And to encourage you to address it when the time is right.



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So 25, to put a fairly blunt point on it - she was molested by the woman her mom was in a relationship with while she was still with her dad. This went on for quite awhile and her mom was either complicit or clueless -- either way, it was bad. Her mom was with that woman for many, many years and the abuse began with she was right around 4. The woman would verbally abuse her, she and her mom would team up and tell her sister that she (XWGF) was evil...a liar...all sorts of stuff. The psychological abuse lasted all the way through high school - after the sexual abuse ended. Then, after the sexual abuse ended, she was raped at the age of 14 by someone she knew in high school. Things got pretty bad.

She is working through all of this in IC right now and taking it on for the first time in her life. Individuals that suffered through enduring sexual abuse (in her case, exacerbated by rape) as I have read/learned/talked through in IC sometimes have a difficult time establishing intimate relationships or establishing physical intimacy. Hence, in a casual relationship with someone new passion is fairly easy because vulnerability is not even on the table at that point. You're mostly chemicals at that point. With me, the nature of the relationship is more personally connected and the physical component of that is where she struggles.

It is getting better. I actually went with her to her IC two days ago - things are improving - but the IC has said that her story is the saddest that she has ever heard (childhood abuse/neglect). Furthermore, she WANTS it to get better - I can sense that she is really trying to get past her struggle.

So no, it's not 100% what I want it to be - but we are working on making things better. The things that happened to her were not her fault -- they contributed to the problems that ultimately up-ended our marriage - but the were not her fault. Trust me, I am the last person on the planet to make excuses for her - but as long as I know that her abuse/trauma is a factor in some of our problems, and I know she is working on those things pretty bravely - I am not going to bail out because everything I need is not there yet. I am content to give it more time. If anything, DB taught me a sh*tload about patience. I have it in me.

25, how in the blue hell would I find you in the real world? Trust me when I say my web forensic skills and overall online hunting prowess are much, much stronger that average (you learn a lot working for a data company!) -- but to date you have laid not a single bread crumb that is traceable! smile

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Find me and I'll throw breadcrumbs out. smile

Your W's experience is horrible. Again, I hope for a strong recovery.


Me 57/H 58
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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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I feel bad for what your W had to deal with. That is horrible. I will never understand how some people can be so cruel. My heart goes out to her.

I admire you, Crimson. You have shown her compassion and patience throughout this difficult time. It truly demonstrates the love you have for her and the character you have as a man. Honestly, she is blessed to have you in her life.


Me:45 ExW:48
M:04/97
3 Bombs & 2 ReCons
1st BD 11/10
D Finalized 4/20
D-16 S-14
Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
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Wow, Crimson. So much of what you have said really resonates with me. You XWGF is very lucky to have you.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
Individuals that suffered through enduring sexual abuse (in her case, exacerbated by rape) as I have read/learned/talked through in IC sometimes have a difficult time establishing intimate relationships or establishing physical intimacy. Hence, in a casual relationship with someone new passion is fairly easy because vulnerability is not even on the table at that point. You're mostly chemicals at that point. With me, the nature of the relationship is more personally connected and the physical component of that is where she struggles.


My H was molested by a family member as a child and he doesn't struggle with physical intimacy so much, but emotional intimacy is a real issue for us at times. The point you make about vulnerability is completely valid, IMO. I told H after we decided to work on our M that one of the hardest things for me was that he confided in OW about things he hadn't shared with me. His response was that it was easier to share with someone he didn't see a future with. This blew my mind originally. In a twisted way I get though. The abuse left a lot of emotional scars.

What happened to your partner is awful. My heart goes out to both of you. I hope with time and patience the intimacy will return.

Originally Posted By: Crimson
So no, it's not 100% what I want it to be - but we are working on making things better. The things that happened to her were not her fault -- they contributed to the problems that ultimately up-ended our marriage - but the were not her fault. Trust me, I am the last person on the planet to make excuses for her - but as long as I know that her abuse/trauma is a factor in some of our problems, and I know she is working on those things pretty bravely - I am not going to bail out because everything I need is not there yet. I am content to give it more time. If anything, DB taught me a sh*tload about patience. I have it in me


My H told me about his trauma fairly early on in our relationship. I had no idea the way in which it would affect our marriage or him. Abuse can cause a lot of destruction when it's not dealt with. Your partner is so brave to decide to confront the past. And you are also brave for choosing to stand by her and support her through it. I haven't read your whole story. What I have seen has been incredibly inspirational though.


Me: 30
H: 35
M: 5 years
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What's up, Crimson? Somebody told me to check out your sitch, so I'm curious about how things went over the last month. Hope all is well.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
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I'm doing, good - thanks for asking. I am long overdue for an update.

The last month we have made a lot of progress. She has continued to see her IC and it is making a difference with the trauma from her childhood that went unrecognized and unmanaged in her life (and our marriage). She has been doing EMDR for a few months now - if you don't know what it is, Google it - it has been helpful for both of us. I have done it as well as part of my self-care and moving forward.

Things are by no means perfect, but after this journey I am forced to ask are they ever? Ya know? But we are really showing up differently in the relationship for sure. The odd part is, I now find myself in the role of the person wondering if her change is real and lasting - ironic as a former LBS, no? But in my weaker moments I really do try to assume positive intent on her end.

Couples therapy has been helpful. She was on the brink of giving it up not too long ago because I talked a lot about the things that went on that really hurt me, or things that I was still struggling with. She felt like I was blaming her for things - I know that I wasn't - I just needed to get things that were on the inside for so long out. I guess it was hard for her to hear or internalize. Still, I know that a large component of that is how we both maintain relatively different views on how we split. There are things we agree upon about the past, but still there are things that we do not see in the same light. Mostly about how she felt that for the longest time I was angry, lashing out and hateful. If you read up on my situation that lasted maybe for a month or two while I was here but went away rather quickly once I started looking at myself and my role. It's amazing how one person can try to be one thing and another person sees it as the exact opposite. Sometimes her interpretations of me from back then (or at least how she remembers it) are really hurtful and distorted, but I can't do a thing about it. Furthermore, why bother even trying to solve for it? It's a road to nowhere and moving forward and agreeing on "from this day forward" issues mean a lot more to me right now than trying to clear the road from a car crash 3,000 miles behind me on the path I am on.

25 - you asked about the embryo. I am ready to talk about it now. Some time ago, we went all in and tried to use it. Shots, Dr. visits - everything. I'll spare the lead-up and details, but she was pregnant for two days and then lost it. She was devastated and very opened up. It was that pain that triggered the memories of her abuse and landed her in IC. So no more embryos. That ship has sailed.

I will say this as a PSA for folks here, though. There is a very strong correlation between SSRIs (I know a lot of us here are leaning on them) and fertility issues. specifically, sperm quality. I was on them long before we started trying (20 mg of prozac) and I had issues with volume, count, morphology (shape) and motility (swimming ability). ALL of those issues are documented as problems caused by SSRIs. I am off of them now for quite a few months (and doing great!) and I am almost certain there have been improvements on all of those fronts. Again - I am not a doctor, but look it up -- it's legit. If you are on them and hoping to have a baby one day, talk to your doctor.

Anyhoo....we are good. Even hanging out with my parents from time to time. My relationship there is different, too. Hard for them, but I think they get it. Much more to say, but I have to bail and pick her up from yoga. S and I are sitting here at a coffee shop like a bunch of hipsters. smile

Stay positive, friends.

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It is good to hear from you. I appreciate how you return with updates. We get somewhat invested in one another's lives here, and I hate for people to leave to never be heard from again. Moreso, when there was no happy ending.

Your steadfastness amazes me, Crimson. I have prayed for you both and I still hope that she will appreciate this guy she has.

Sorry about the miscarriage. I had two miscarriages, and one I didn't know I was pregnant until I lost it. It still had a strange emotional affect, so I can't imagine how devastated your W was. I'm sure for you, too. Bad enough to trigger buried memories. That has to be major.

You always manage to use positive words in your posts, and I admire you for doing it. I always wish the best for you, and if having another child is best.....then I certainly hope it happens. I also hope you can stay well. If you can have a good life without the meds, great, but if you can't......then you have to take care of you. ((Crimson))

One day soon, I hope you will have time to write more. I miss hearing from you. How is that little man of yours?


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what Sandi said^^^ and mega condolences on the miscarriage. Ouch


One thing to note Crimson, about the past and our visions of it. I have said the focus ought to be "from this day forward" and I meant it.

But I have also had some regrets that I wish had been more resolved or addressed before totally recommitting. When h was at his "ripest" for feedback or maybe most motivated, I wish we had explored ENOUGH of the past

and how we both viewed it for me to feel safer in knowing he would Not repeat the behaviors. I mean, he SAID certain things I needed to hear, but now, years later, there seems to be a bit of revising going on.

Does it matter? I think it

ONLY matters if it means a repeat of behaviors (otherwise, it's just incredibly, deeply annoying).


Not sure what else to say there, so that's that. For now.

PS

How do you feel your wife views the possibility of another child, with you? Have you two discussed the SSRI and fertility issues?

Do you feel "blamed" or in any way, lessened in her eyes?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Thanks for chiming in Sandi and 25 - I feel like I haven't heard from you in an age, Sandi!

Nah, I do not at all feel blamed or lessened in her eyes on the fertility deal. The biological part of it, though chiefly associated with me, was never rolled up in a nice package and placed on my doorstep. She has been kind about that from day one. Where I DO feel blamed at times is not pursuing EVERY single option that we had in front of us during the infertility process. If you remember, she wanted to pursue adoption (which is criminally expensive) and reproductive technology all at the same time. When I stressed the financial difficulty of that plan she was not happy and I was accused of "not being on the same page", and so on. I never said "no" to anything, but my strategy (and yes, we needed one) was to exhaust all we could with health benefits and some cash on IVF, IUI - and if we can't get that to work then try adoption. That was not sufficient for her -- and I was blamed for "giving up on her dream". Not fair, not accurate - but that is what it was.

With regard to agreeing on the past. We have, in some senses, come to an accord generally speaking. I think I still hurt a bit when the gross misconceptions about me, my feelings, my intentions and so on are viewed incorrectly. And by "incorrectly" I am aware that her universe is her universe and the perceptions and feelings there are real to her. But at the same time, my universe is mine - and I know where my heart and head were -- and there are moments that she was just wrong. She honestly thought that I was plotting to take our S away from her. That just blows my mind -- and that is why she quickly rushed to get a lawyer. So, it's the little things like that that get to me. The fact that back then she was under the impression that I was so angry and "out for blood". I have read her things I journaled from back then, and NOTHING even remotely says that. Still -- she clings to it. I have to let it go.

Sandi, is "steadfast" the write word or am I generally insane? smile There are moments when I check the rearview and realize that while I was "in the woods" for three years I had numerous opportunities to take up with other in serious relationships and I didn't...I couldn't. I am not at the end of my journey, but at times I looked through all that I endured and am somewhat amazed myself. I caused some of it - so it that regard things were just coming home to roost -- but man, those dark days were seriously, seriously dark.

I have to tell you, I feel fine without the SSRIs. If ever the need arises to get back on them I will, but I am doing great just dealing with feelings and emotions without ADs. In fact, in a certain sense I feel like I am doing better without them.

Our little guy is thriving in this new environment. His separation anxiety is gone, he is growing and eating like mad -- next month he will be 5!! FIVE!!! He was 18 months when this all began. Where has time gone? I look forward to the day where his memory of two homes will be so vague he questions if it was even real.

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OMG, 5!!!

Hard to believe.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

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I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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Quote:
He was 18 months when this all began.
.

I still remember that first Christmas after the S, and writing that post to you on Christmas Day.......crying b/c I felt so sorry for you. That year, and those to follow, struck a cord of sadness that I haven't forgotten. The three of you have been through a lot.

At times I wanted to wring her neck. At other times I wanted to wring your neck! (ha). Mostly I wanted you to have the happiness you deserve.

It has been a long, hard road, and you have worked for every step forward. I am so anxious when you can tell us everything is good........even better than good. smile


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Man, the Holidays were tough Sandi. I remember very vividly my little guy having massive separation anxiety and sobbing uncontrollably when I dropped him of. She would literally have to peel him off of me. It tore the heart out of me. Those are the types of things/memories that I am working on in IC -- and, in time, the sting of those events has started to fade. Though I hope never 100% because I don't ever want to forget completely what that life was like -- it's good to remember some of it so I remember to keep working on me.

I also vividly recall you wanting to wring my neck. A lot of the time because I was probably being too accommodating or something to her. The irony? Despite what I was trying to do in terms of accommodation and kindness she STILL saw and interpreted most everything I did as hateful or based in anger/hostility. I tell you, that blows my mind!

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What's up, Crim?


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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I am way overdue for an update - but we are doing well. Just back from New Orleans for a wedding -- (not ours....sloooow down!) smile

Therapy continues as do the discoveries from it. In one sentence: childhood stuff really, really showed up in our marriage and we are working on it as a team and trying to be better about communication.

More later....sorry I have been so silent....life has been in the way a bit!

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Crimson - Lost18 pointed me in your direction. I've been reading through your early posts, and they are really resonating with me. I'm trying to visualize what the future looks like for me, and I am learning a lot through you. Thank you and good luck with your journey!


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
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I am just grateful that anyone can draw even an ounce of inspiration and/or hope from my situation! I am glad that I can provide even a modicum of help to folks here. "Journey" is the right word -- it never really ends.

Stay patient, friend. Funny - XWGF (ex-wife girlfriend) and I were driving to dinner this weekend down a road that normally is very clear with no heavy traffic. There was an event going on and the road was SLAMMED - we could barely move. She says to me "you have more patience than I do, I would have turned the car around and headed the other way". I so badly wanted to say "You have NO idea the patience that I developed!" smile Waiting in traffic? No problem!

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I'd have to say that DBing teaches each of us different things.

But if I had to say the one thing that it teaches all of us who somehow make it, it would be PATIENCE.

I never knew I had it. Maybe I didn't always.

I want to hear more about you, buddy!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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That is definitely true! I have way more than I used to, but I am still learning about myself and developing even more patience.

I am with 25 and would love to hear more from you.


Me: 32 W: 29 T:8 M: 6 D4 S2
M - 8/2008
W is not happy - 1/2014
W wants D - 9/2014
W moved out - 11/2014
D filed - 1/23/2015
D'ed - 2/25/2015
Gave X the Letter - 11/10/2015
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