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Take Two
Mondays for days ...
Loot and lawyers

Wonka, you're the lucky winner! You locked the last thread. You win ... a virtual high-five!! grin

You said:
Doing nothing is also an action.
I've *never* thought of it like that. But I like it! smile

Another lengthy one ...

So y'all remember how I was talking today about how different H was acting in texts? He texted me a few hours ago and said he'd been "tired and miserable" all day. He had just driven by the house, laying on the horn, before writing a text: "I'm beginning to think that if I wasn't always so d*mn tired when I was home that things would have been different and I wouldn't have just drove by the house I lived in and beeped the horn."

Later, he called the kids and - for the second time in a week - asked S7 to pass the phone to me. We chatted a while about his work and how things are going there and what he's up to tonight. He told me he thinks he's done in the industry. He doesn't feel tied to this place anymore or to his line of work. And he said, "I'm honestly thinking of selling all my tools and buying us some land in the mountains."

Though the "us" didn't go unnoticed (I felt my heart flip), I didn't bite. But I did tell him then of my current plan to head to the mountains as early as August, after a summer in SC. I asked him how he felt about me taking the kids there. He said he wants to be close to the kids and has been giving serious thought to trying to find work in another area of the mountains, which would be about an hour or 1.5 hours away from where I want to sink roots. He said he could try to find a place halfway between. He said, "I'll find somewhere small and cheap and nestled in the mountains. No matter what, it sounds like we're both moving toward living a more simple, less expensive life away from here. We'll see what happens between you and me. But otherwise, I want to be alone ... no girlfriends."

He re-emphasized he had "started the wheels in motion on that yesterday." I asked how things were going with that. He chuckled and sighed and said, "Looks like I got myself one of those psychotic ones." (HS, I *immediately* thought of you and actually giggled a little, and H chuckled and asked, jokingly: "Are you laughing at me?")

Apparently, she was at his apartment yesterday. He said "she showed up," but I find that hard to believe. (Irritating that SHE knows where he lives, but his *wife* and the mother of his children doesn't.) I don't know why he felt I needed to know this information, but he said: "You'd be proud of me: I didn't christen the place with her. I could have been the typical guy and done that and then told her I don't want a relationship. Yeah, so, I'm pretty proud of myself." (At some point later in the conversation, he was talking about how he doesn't want to have sex with her anymore, but then he said: "You know what? I can't say that I won't. I don't want to tell you a lie." I just didn't respond. Didn't know *what* to say to that ...)

He said OW has been "blowing his phone up all day." (And I've noticed, even when I have texted him, it's taking him an hour or so to even read the texts, so I'm ASSuming he's trying to avoid his phone as much as possible - lol.) He mentioned (again) that his lease is only six months, so he could "pack up and leave anytime, really" to get away from her if he has to. (He *just* texted me and said "if things get out of hand," he'll change his number "and get a restraining order." I think he's somewhat joking about that. But he said: "She tried to call when you and I were talking. I literally put my phone in the truck, locked the truck and locked the door to the shop. I'm just now leaving, and I haven't got another call or text from her. Lol." He said he's going to start doing that at all times, even during the day, until this passes, I guess. I told him to make sure I have numbers to his shops in the event of an emergency with the kids, so he sent those to me.)

It irritated me to hear that he's merely "set the wheels in motion" on a break-up with OW. I didn't indicate I was irritated by it, but I did ask: "If you're ready to end things, as you say you are, have you considered being a little more definitive and decisive with her? Seems to me, especially if you're saying she's relentless, you'll eventually need to be that way, whether it's now or a couple weeks after you've both suffered through the fall-out." I know I shouldn't play psychiatrist with him, but I had NO idea how to respond to what he was saying. And I felt like a dork just sitting there, not engaging with him a little while he was talking. I DO NOT WANT to be his friend and listen to him talk about sex and "christening an apartment - or NOT" with OW. I don't want to hear about him possibly having sex with her again! So do I just outright SAY that? I think I should if he mentions it again. At some points, he sounded *relieved* to be talking about her. But I think, when I wasn't really responding, he grew more uncomfortable talking about her. I'm not sure why he kept on about her. Maybe because I stupidly asked, in the beginning, how "things were going with that." But d*amn. I was asking about the break-up. Only the facts, sir. I didn't need all THAT ...

Lesson learned.

He said she's laying the guilt on thick, just as all of us here presumed she would. Pretty textbook. He said, "She's saying, 'I left everything for you'." I asked him how he felt about that, and he said (again), "Well, she didn't have to call me back!" I told him: "She made choices, and she is responsible for answering for those to HER family. Her choices, and her family, are HER responsibility. You have your OWN family that you may eventually need to answer to." He responded: "Exactly!!!"

I told him if she keeps showing up unannounced at his apartment, to let me know if he needs me to pop by for an evening visit one day. wink He laughed and said, "Okay! Do you mean you'll stop by for ME? Oh, nevermind. You mean for her ..."

We talked for a bit about how crappy our M was in especially the last six months before he left, mainly because he was working non-stop. I told him, "As sad as this is going to sound, things haven't really felt different since you've been gone because you were never here." He said, "Can I interject here?" And I said, "Yes, please, of course!" He said, "You know, I haven't been miserable since leaving because, well, I had a girlfriend. She filled that hole. But just after starting to break things off with her last night, I was freaking MISERABLE all day today!"

I didn't ask him to expound on whether he's miserable without HER; context clues would suggest otherwise. We've discussed before that he can't be alone. Both times he's left, it's because he has a "back-up." He just can't be by himself for some reason. That's something I don't understand because I'm not like that. I've always told my daughters, though: "You'll know you're happy WITH yourself when you can be happy BY yourself." So, yeah, maybe he's just miserable because he's alone. Or maybe he's starting to feel miserable because he misses his family and he doesn't energetically feel her there "filling the void." Maybe it's a little bit of "all of the above."

We chatted a little longer, but I could tell that hearing/talking about OW had changed the tone of my voice and the quality of the conversation, so I told him: "You know me: I could talk 'til 3 a.m., but I should go."

He told me he's going to get money to me soon to have birthday parties in the next two months for both S7 and D2.

And that was it.

Gah. It is so frustrating to not fix things for him - and I could FEEL myself trying to start doing it in the conversation! I'm SO used to rescuing him, and it's hard not to. I also know, however, that this is HIS journey. And he needs to fix it all by himself. I've fixed things for him before, and I've seen - and FELT - the consequences of that, eight years later.

The truth is: though these past two months have dragged by ... and today, in a way, has felt like an eternity ... looking back 10 years from now, with or without H, these moments will seem like a drop in the bucket. I HAVE to keep my eyes on the big picture.

I don't want to deny him the dignity of his own struggle. That would do no good for either of us, our marriage or our family.

And I walked away from this conversation thinking, HS, you are a freaking genius. You've NAILED what's going on in his relationship with OW. And I need to make sure, as you ALL have emphasized today, to be cool, calm and collected while OW's storm rages on. While it hurts that she knows where he lives and I don't - and that she's VISITED him and I haven't - it's a small price to pay for what's in "the big picture." I must keep reminding myself of this. And I must continue to practice patience.

Question, though: If he is initiating the conversations now, is it "okay" for me to engage with him a little more like I did today? Distancing HAS been working, yes, obviously. It is apparently starting to attract him back. And I want to continue doing what's working. But once it's working, and he's initiating conversations, THEN what? Is it okay to put a little toe in the water and start listening/validating when - and only when - the conversation is initiated by him? I don't want to get too far ahead of myself here, but this makes the second night that H has texted me at night and past midnight. He just texted: "I'm thinking of taking the kids to the mountains Sunday to eat pizza. You wanna go?"

Duh. Of course! wink


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
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Originally Posted By: Train
I DO NOT WANT to be his friend and listen to him talk about sex and "christening an apartment - or NOT" with OW. I don't want to hear about him possibly having sex with her again! So do I just outright SAY that?



HELL YES!!!


"Look, we're still married and I'm not your B-F-F. If you want to end it with her, end it with her, but it's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family for you to sit there and talk to me about 'christening' your apartment with her. Stop it."


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Train,

I'm a little concerned/alarmed at the dynamics I'm reading between your exchanges. It is NOT your job to fix HIM, and it's not your job to HEAL him. More importantly, you guys have it precisely BACKWARDS.

Yeah, I am good with a good phrase sometimes, but more important to me in these sitches is to coach people on the overall dynamics, including the POWER dynamic. Your sitch has "reconciliation" written all over it, but you've GOT to turn this power dynamic 180 degrees. Put more simply,

HE SHOULD BE PURSUING YOU, AND TRYING TO HELP HEAL YOU, AND THE DAMAGE HE'S CAUSED YOU AND HIS FAMILY.

Everything else you're doing and saying is great, but this is a biggie. I'll be anxious to hear if others are seeing/hearing the same thing in your exchanges, but that's my take on it at least.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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More in a little bit. But, Starsky, your concern/alarm is dead-on. And I don't want to be with him until he DOES pursue me. In fact, I'd love to see him flat on his face.

Do I hold off on conversations with him? Pull so far back that he'd HAVE to pursue me in order to reconcile? Do I turn the conversations more distant? Do I just flip a switch like that? Will it work?

This is one reason why I feel getting out of this town will do me worlds of good. I feel like maybe I have some power to reclaim. I need to truly understand my worth again. Part of me feels I lost part of it somewhere along the way.

Maybe that's what it is. I don't know.


M: 40 H: 44
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Omg. Why am I trying to be his friend instead of his WIFE?!???


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Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23


And I'm going to assume, depending on where this is going ( it looks good although it will take work and time on both parts) that before you two have sex again that he will not be sleeping with OW AND he will be tested up and down.



x 10


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23
Just for the record...... I've been on these boards a long time ( too long, lol). Mostly giving back in the past few years.

I've seen all sorts of approaches taken with infidelity, and starsky, by far promotes the best, most self-respecting, long -term resulting getting approach there is.

His advice is golden. If I had a chance to employ a portion of it, I would have ( I just married and douchebag. I knew it the day I met him, but I was young, stupid, insecure , and I. " love").

But I do take it with me going forward into any future relationships. One thing we need to keep through this process is our self- respect. If we don't respect ourselves, how can anyone else respect us?

Ok, carry on, great job:)



Awwww, shucks. That made my day. blush smile


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Train
More in a little bit. But, Starsky, your concern/alarm is dead-on. And I don't want to be with him until he DOES pursue me. In fact, I'd love to see him flat on his face.

Do I hold off on conversations with him? Pull so far back that he'd HAVE to pursue me in order to reconcile? Do I turn the conversations more distant? Do I just flip a switch like that? Will it work?

This is one reason why I feel getting out of this town will do me worlds of good. I feel like maybe I have some power to reclaim. I need to truly understand my worth again. Part of me feels I lost part of it somewhere along the way.

Maybe that's what it is. I don't know.


Great questions. Know that I am more hard-core than most, but all I go by what worked for me and what I've seen work for others.

Even geopolitically, I don't think you can negotiate the peace until you've won the war, and pacified your enemy. (It NEVER works) There will be a time to show forgiveness, understanding, compassion and an overall attitude "I will not lord this over you if you return to the marriage" to your husband, but until he says it's OVER -- PERIOD with the OW, and gives you the remorseful/contrite "What will it take?" speech, it's NOT the time to be displaying any of those other than just basic compassion and civility.

In my opinion.

In the meantime, your conversations should be of the "This is your mess; you need to clean it up" type, and of the forward-looking statements you made like this one you did, which was great:

Quote:
"She made choices, and she is responsible for answering for those to HER family. Her choices, and her family, are HER responsibility. You have your OWN family that you may eventually need to answer to."


It's a delicate dance, Train, but it's an imperative one. Your husband has to sense your forgiveness, and a smooth path back to the marriage, but he has to know it's with conditions. It's an "if/then" thing, if you're into logic: "IF you end your affair, and all contact with OW -- period -- and return to the marriage, I think you will find me willing to talk about and work on any and all issues -- including my own role in the prior problems we had in our marriage. But that ball is squarely in your court."

Make sense?

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Train
Omg. Why am I trying to be his friend instead of his WIFE?!???


A few reasons.

- because you see him hurting, and you want to comfort him;

- because YOU are hurting, and you want the comfort that comes with a more friendly relationship, and not the godawful adversarial one that accompanies adultery;

- because you miss his friendship, and always considered that an important part of your marital relationship with him? (I know I do -- my wife IS my best friend, by far)


It's all very understandable. But you can't -- at this critical stage -- turn to HIM to soothe you, and you damned sure shouldn't be soothing HIM.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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First topic:

Quote:
In the meantime, your conversations should be of the "This is your mess; you need to clean it up" type, and of the forward-looking statements you made like this one you did, which was great:

Quote:
"She made choices, and she is responsible for answering for those to HER family. Her choices, and her family, are HER responsibility. You have your OWN family that you may eventually need to answer to."


Seriously, Starsky: WHY is it that that's the ONE thing I said last night that - though it made me feel like my REAL, genuine self to say it - made me cringe a little bit when it came out of my mouth?

I feel like I have to be someone different than who I really am to attract him back. Because I feel like THAT is the person he left.

But it's not that, is it?

I mean, the proof is in the pudding. I've been fearing that he left me because I always HAVE commanded respect. And my fear is that that's kind of "emasculated" him. But - surprise of all surprises - as soon as I start laying down firm boundaries like my old self? Boom: He's following our family down to the beach. He's "ending" his relationship with OW. And he's talking about following us up the mountain. It could be all coincidence. But probably not.


M: 40 H: 44
Married 14 years
S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M
2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart
Piecing: April 2014
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