I'm in, Wife's Out - Pt. Two

[trc2009]

Here's the previous thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...696#Post2437696

Man am I glad I don't spend time w/ W in the mornings right now. Neither of us are morning people but both of us are required to be up around 6-6:30 (kids, work, etc.). I swung by the pickup my son for school before I went to work.

You could tell neither of us were really "awake." And any conversation is met with a grumpy, tired person. Neither of us are sleeping "well." According to her, she sleeps way less than I do. Generally, I'll get 6-8 hours of sleep. She says she's lucky to get 4.

After a month and a half of separation I'm learning when to avoid seeing W. Obviously that may not stay that way forever but for now it's probably good to avoid spending any time with her in the morning. Fortunately it's pretty easy at the moment because I'm typically on the "go" in the morning.

Anyway, I had a 2 hour initial IC session yesterday. I thought it went very well. We dove into EVERYTHING. Obviously we talked about my current situation but we ended up talking a lot of my family history. This IC is good. Definitely better than the MC we went to. I can tell those of you on here that are considering going to a MC/IC, make sure you do your homework. Find a PHD if you can. Especially for an IC. I'll be going back on a weekly basis for a little while. I think there are things from my family that I never realized were issues with me until she started asking questions. No abuse or anything like that (my parents are wonderful people), but even the closest of families can leave one a little messed up.

She gave me some preliminary tools to work on for my anxiety I've had, and she said that's something I will master by the time we're done because it also relates to how I react in tense situations. She said that will be a work-in-progress.

All-in-all, I'm doing pretty well. Tired because yesterday was a 12 hour work day with a 2-hour IC session mixed in. I went and worked out afterwards and I was just plain exhausted. I'm staying at the house tonight with the kids! That ALWAYS makes me feel good. Always.

[trc2009]

Talked to W for a little while today about IC session. She asked very pointedly if we talked about the anger problems. Of course I said yes. Told her that we ended up talking about my issues w/ my brother from my childhood and the baggage my dad left all of us kids from his escapades when we were younger. W said that she had been thinking that has been a problem for me for a while but didn't feel like she could bring it up w/ me.

W said "it gives me more to think about for sure," and to quote her, she said "Don't get me wrong, I'm glad your working on this. Not just in case we work things out but for the next person you'll end up with."

I wasn't too sure how to take that but it was a good conversation. Personally, I think I got A LOT out of yesterdays session. Hopefully future sessions will prove to be beneficial.

[Bunches]

I wouldn't read too much into the "who you'll end up with" comment. Obvious that she is still searching for answers on her side. Did you bring up your counseling sessions or did she ask about them?

[trc2009]

We've both been pretty open about both of our IC goings on. I didn't go into extreme detail with her. Just some key points that I felt apply to our sitch. She has indicated that me seeing an IC is important to her so at least keeping her abreast with the progress is probably prudent. I don't HAVE to tell her anything and she would probably say the same thing. But given the fact that she has been fairly open about her IC sessions pretty much indicates I should at least keep her in the loop to a certain degree.

She got pretty mad at me when she found out I went to the MC a 2nd time and didn't tell her. So I'll take that as a sign I should at least keep her in the loop on this.

[trc2009]

She has a habit of making comments like that bunches. Kind of playing it down the middle. I don't know how many times she'd say something positive only to follow it up with "but I don't want to give you false hope."

She's made so many comments like that and has done it for weeks. She's still here. She still hasn't filed for D. So they're just words. Believe none of what she says and half of what I see.

[hrthrt9]

They are just words. I've heard the same over the last few months. "Who you'll end up with" and "I don't want to give you mixed messages" and "I want you to be happy". She's alleviating her guilt with these words and trying to justify what she is doing/going through. Be patient, patient, patient if you don't want a D. Believe me, sometimes even the slightest pressure pushes her to the direction you don't want it to go.

[25yearsmlc]

Talked to W for a little while today about IC session. She asked very pointedly if we talked about the anger problems. Of course I said yes. Told her that we ended up talking about my issues w/ my brother from my childhood and the baggage my dad left all of us kids from his escapades when we were younger. W said that she had been thinking that has been a problem for me for a while but didn't feel like she could bring it up w/ me.

W said "it gives me more to think about for sure," and to quote her, she said "Don't get me wrong, I'm glad your working on this. Not just in case we work things out but for the next person you'll end up with."



I wasn't too sure how to take that but it was a good conversation. Personally, I think I got A LOT out of yesterdays session. Hopefully future sessions will prove to be beneficial.

The reality is that if your w comes to believe that you are indeed becoming the man she always wanted you to become,

but that some OTHER woman will gain the benefit of that work,

she will be bothered by that.

Sure, she'll say (& maybe sincerely) she is "happy for you". But Trust me on this. She'll wonder about her choice to leave, or timing of it. She'll also probably resent that it took her wanting out, for you to change. But that, is that...meaning...

I was at a workshop ("EE", which is the "Essential Experience" workshop. I think you really ought to look into it.

It's based in Philadelphia ands it's a personal growth (individual) workshop. That way, you work on YOUR stuff without mixing it all into the m, b/c even though it may affect the marriage, it's your work to do. (But you getting healthier, helps all your r's)

Plus, when I went to it, I found that there were issues not directly related to h or our m, that I wanted to work on but not necessarily in front of h.

(Like my r with h's mother, for one, and some things that happened in my childhood I had never shared).

So, for me, going alone was much better. After my h saw the changes in me, which were significant, he went himself a few months later (and he's NOT the type of guy to do that. We were both military officers at the time, too. Touchy feely stuff we did, we pretty much kept quiet about).

To sum it up, it was like 2 years of therapy in one long weekend. Seriously profound.

ANYHOW, here is a situation that may resonate with you.

There was a recovering alcoholic father there, with his adult son.

((15 Years earlier, the dad/mom divorced and the adult son and dad were now trying to build a better R. The dad had been sober for a decade now. He had remarried and his "new" wife & he had a baby boy.))

Towards the end of the workshop, the adult son stood & said

"You are now this great dad and husband for your baby boy. But it hurts to know that for ME and mom, you were a jerk & a drunk. So we got the worst parts of you... and now your 'new family' gets all the best..." (ouch!)

To which the father said, "Son, You're 100% right, and I'm SO so sorry... The best I can do now is to be the father you always needed/deserved me to be, from this day forward"...and then they embraced.

(I mean, what else was there to say? Humans are flawed.) It was an intensely bittersweet moment.

In your case, I think your w would very very much like to believe and then trust that you will be your best self, for her and the kids... not someone else later.

Since your w is also in counseling, you don't ever have to worry that she isn't working on herself. Plus, I don't mean to hammer it too much but I do feel like you have plenty of your own stuff to deal with.

With respect to your new T, and the whole PhD deal. My experience has been somewhat similar, but don't discard all therapists b/c they are not all PhDs...

I've had some therapists with Masters degrees who were plenty helpful and at least one PhD who was just into observing, I used to wonder why we paid her...

My caution is this: When we spend a ton of therapist's time on our past, (looking in the rear view mirror instead of where we are now heading)

and the past is something about which we can do nothing, it can sometimes deflect from our "solution based approach" here.

This DB site is about USING NEW TOOLS NOW to change our relationships now. Some therapists are in alignment with that and our MC (a PhD) said "If you don't begin any new behaviors or nothing changes after 5-6 sessions with me, I'm not helping you enough..."

I like that^^ b/c I see people who use the same T for years, with no change...wth?

Sometimes rehashing the past just keeps us stuck, b/c it ends up justifying our behaviors too much, or makes us feel worse about our lives to the point of wanting to retreat/leave/divorce b/c it's the only thing we can now 'do'.

Plus we tend to dig into negatives in therapy, not the positives. That can distort.

SOME history gives context to our present lives, however, so I don't mean to suggest you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Just saying at some point after we realize, for instance, how our alcoholic parent DID hurt us, or a R with a sibling DID stink, or whatever past event damaged us...then

we still have to ask 'okay, NOW what?" And that is where a great T will help, as will DBing...

and that workshop I hope you'll look into.

I promise you that a workshop will give you a jolt on the path, and a good therapist can keep you on that path.

Also, for a short little exercise or tutorial on behaving differently, try watching some TED Videos from the TED conferences. One is by Shawn Achor (?) and the other is Amy Cuddy. You can find them on youtube. They are about 10-20 minutes long but quite profound in their findings. Also easy to watch and then ponder.

Both Cuddy and Achor talk about how we can change our selves, by DOING or SAYING certain behaviors/words...that in effect, we'd change "outside" and then that

change, can sink in and the change becomes who we really are. So it's like faking it til you BECOME it, as opposed to just "faking it til you make it".

An example of this (not the TED talk but the "outside in" thing)

A good mc asked us to commit to 6 weeks of ONE behavioral change.

That change was for us to be very courteous to each other for 6 weeks, with zero fighting as a partial goal.

We could write down the fight we "wanted" to have (for later)

but for 6 weeks we were to be unfailingly polite and courteous to each other EVEN IF it felt awkward or silly and even if we felt justifiable anger.

A few times it was so silly, in the situation, that we ended up mostly, laughing...

and you know what? When someone is calm and polite to you, it's very hard to be super mad for long. It stops things from escalating...almost radical in it's simplicity, but effective.

Food for thought. So, check into that individual EE workshop for YOU,

(maybe save Retrovaille for later, when your w agrees), work with your new IC,

dig deep, making sure you do get back to "now what?" when you can,

and see the TED talks mentioned.

I'd like to know if you get anything out of them. My h and I felt a confirmation of some good changes in our m.

So, KEEP AT IT!!

[trc2009]

My wife has said that she wished she was good enough to make these changes. Meaning she wishes I had acknowledged those problems before now. That pained me to hear. Absolutely killed me to hear. Of course I think she's good enough to make these changes for. I was just too blind or stupid to recognize how big of a deal it was for her. And how big of a deal it REALLY is.

My IC is an Alderian therapist. The initial consultation is more fact-finding from what I understood. At the very end we went through a one-page assessment together and defined five specific goals for my therapy. She didn't really define any tools other than some abdonimal breathing exercises that she said will be needed throughout the IC sessions and afterwards.

[25yearsmlc]

My wife has said that she wished she was good enough to make these changes. Meaning she wishes I had acknowledged those problems before now. That pained me to hear. Absolutely killed me to hear. Of course I think she's good enough to make these changes for. I was just too blind or stupid to recognize how big of a deal it was for her. And how big of a deal it REALLY is.


So, what did you say to her? If nothing, you need to tell her this^^^....


My IC is an Alderian therapist. The initial consultation is more fact-finding from what I understood. At the very end we went through a one-page assessment together and defined five specific goals for my therapy. She didn't really define any tools other than some abdonimal breathing exercises that she said will be needed throughout the IC sessions and afterwards.

Adler, Jung, Rogers, Satir and others, form the basis of the Essential Experience workshop. IT was designed by David Crump, a PhD and is now mostly run by Eric Hoffman, JD, PhD. I hope you'll check it out.

I think it's good that your IC set goals with you, so you can measure your progress. After a certain number of sessions (my most effective IC said "5-6)

if you don't feel that new behaviors are happening, you may want to look elsewhere.
I doubt she is ready to give you tools yet, b/c the goals will guide that.

But be open to her help and see where it goes...I doubt she'll hinder your growth, but I know you want to be your best NOW...and I get that.

That motivation will help you.

[trc2009]

It's been a few weeks since I've posted but here's an update.

We had a good few weeks (for the most part). As of yesterday, we're living under the same roof but still separated. No PA and no PC at all.

My IC has gone wonderfully so far after three sessions. I went last week and I'm going to be going every two weeks for a while. Definitely gaining a better understanding of why I lose my temper on occassion when I get angry (a lot stems from my childhood upbringing). Differences between anger & aggression, etc. Obviously a work in progress. To quote my IC, there is no "cure" or anything like that (obviously) but more of me showing the new "me" in terms of handling stressful situations....especially when it involves my wife.

We talked over the weekend and yesterday about our future and both of us agreed that we were tired of the current situation of us living separately. The "tension" that existed in January/February/early-March has subsided in a big way. Neither of us had any desire to live with other people for the next several months. And we simply can't afford for one of us to get our own place.

We were both VERY nervous on Monday when we came to the decision to move in under the same roof. I know I've been doing work but it really will be an ongoing process for some time. To quote my IC, "there is only so much that therapy sessions can accomplish. Using tools learned in therapy and consistent actions are the only way to fix past wrongdoings."

To put it in other terms, we won't know until we try. I left it up to her and she called me yesterday at work to tell me she called her dad to tell him that she wouldn't be staying there for the forseeable future.

I'm most definitely a different person today than I was two months ago. Sadly, it took a separation for me to TRULY understand what is important in my life. Sure, my kids and my marriage have always been important, but I guess I didn't know how important.

Now, I don't think we're anywhere near peicing. It's going to take a while of us living under the same roof and my wife feeling comfortable again before I can call it that. We talked about the physical part of our marriage. Right now it is GONE. It literally doesn't exist. Sure, I'm attracted to her and she even said yesterday that she still feels attracted to me. But she is admittedly very guarded and for good reason. She probably won't let that down for some time to come. It's going to take a world of patience on my part and obviously let her be the one to take those steps for the both of us.

At this point though, even if things get worse, I'm never leaving the house again. For those reading here, do not leave the house unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. While our separation had some good parts to it (showed us both a little more freedom than we've been used to in a while, allowed us to assess what's really important to each other, etc), I feel it really set us back. In hindsight, I should have been much more proactive in seeking professional help and I shouldn't have let my insecurities get the best of me. My W and I generally get along on most things. We both realized over the last few weeks that her and I are very much friends and can be rational people. That's dangerous territory at the moment because she even said that if she see's me as just a friend she may have a hard time looking at me as her mate. But, as my IC has said, that's pretty typical of someone who is trying to convince themselves that they don't have emotional and/or physical feelings toward someone. In other words, she's guarding her heart. But enough with the mind reading.

She hasn't said the word "D" in several weeks.....maybe over a month..honestly can't remember.

We're only one night under the same roof. It's kind of on me to keep the train on the tracks and not let the behavior to led to our separation take over again. She's talked a little bit about the future. On both sides of the coin. We have a vacation planned with my family this June (we did before we separated). She has indicated that if she gets a job she'll do her best to get the whole week off. Our house is on the market and she's made comments like "in our next house we need to do X, Y, and Z." Little things like that. Commments like that a month or two ago simply did not exist.

On the other hand she's made comments to the other direction. Comments like "if we end up apart, I'm going to make fun of you if you start dating someone who is 21."

I try to take those comments with a grain of salt because now that we've officially done this for three months, I've learned that she's a lot of "talk" sometimes. I don't know if it's her way of trying to bait me or something else, but growing thicker skin is a must. That took me a while to do but I get better at it each week.

I've been fairly happy, confident, and slightly content the last several weeks. Simply being able to go home now is a huge weight off my shoulders and hopefully that will help me continue being more happy and confident. The importance of simply being able to go home after work and seeing my family and sleeping in my own bed cannot be understated. Hence the reason someone should not agree to move out of a home unless it's a last resort.