This codependency stuff is really difficult to resolve to the teachings of Christianity. I mean, don't instructions like "turn the other cheek," "consider others greater than yourself," and "forgive seven times seventy" sort of foster codependent behaviors? Not looking to start a big religious debate here, but it seems like I have 50 years of Christian/Catholic teaching to undo just to become healthy. And then when I do, do I still qualify as Christian? Ugh!
FWIW, with respect to complaints about religion and twelve step programs, the complaint is generally the opposite! Working the steps involves surrendering a lot of stuff to a higher power. It is difficult for many non-religious people to find a concept of higher power that works for them.
There are many ways to serve others ahead of yourself without damaging yourself. Indeed, finding a way to be of service to others is a big strategy in climbing out of co-dependence. There are healthy ways to serve others and unhealthy ways. The unhealthy ways aren't good for anyone.
I would think the purpose of turning the other cheek is to forgive and move forward. It doesn't require you to stay stuck, offering one cheek after another, over and over again. Indeed, wouldn't you be enabling harmful behavior of another? That is not loving toward yourself or the other.
Forgiveness and letting go of resentment is a huge part of recovering from codependency. So, no problem there.
And, from what I understand, you will likely find your Christian faith and spirituality greatly affirmed and deepened.
I agree with Oldtimer. I am Catholic and have been in CODA for almost a year now. I have not found any contradictions between their teachings and beliefs and have actually deepened my religious faith since I joined.
I would recommend CODA for anyone. I think we all have some codependent tendencies and issues regardless of our marital situation or upbringing. What you learn there is good for all your R, not just with your spouse. If you go to meetings you will see people there from all walks of life and with all kinds of situations. It has been very humbling and tremendously helpful for me. I hope you find it to be as well for you.
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
I haven't been able to make a meeting yet, but I received the book I ordered and started reading it. Right now, it's talking about boundaries and I have a question.
This is a problem from long ago, so I'm not looking for a solution, just a reflection. H's older son used to come over for dinner a couple nights a week as part of his custody schedule. The problem was that I never knew if or when, but H wanted me to hold dinner for him, just in case. There were a couple times we (including S12 who was only about 3 at the time) were eating at 9:00 at night. I found that unacceptable and told H that I wasn't going to hold dinner for older son anymore, unless I knew for certain he was coming over, when he was coming, and only then if that time was a reasonable time for dinner. H had an issue with that, claiming he did the best he could, that his son didn't always tell him or make his commitment, but that he felt it was important for us to eat together as a family. At the time, I struggled with feeling that I was being manipulative or controlling by setting this boundary. Of course, that feeling was exasperated because H told me I was.
To me, presenting boundaries, even in a direct and polite manner, ultimately seems to translate as "it's this or else." In this case, "tell me if and when he's going to be here, or else I'm not holding/eating dinner with you." I believe it's a healthy boundary/expectation, but to me it reeks of control and manipulation. At the same time, I agree that eating together as a family is a good thing, so then I also struggled with guilt, but also guilt about making S12 (then 3) wait to eat until he was supposed to be in bed.
Yet if I simply present it as "this is unacceptable to me so I'm not going to do it anymore," without the "or else," then I feel like I'm being intolerant, unforgiving and uncompromising (also supported by H) because I didn't even offer an alternative (aka. ultimatum.)
I realize I can filter out H's condemning judgments, but if I want a happy M, I feel like it's important to consider his desires/preferences. (eg. sex) If I just blow off his preference because *I* have a boundary or a preference of my own, how can I expect him to ever consider mine? And when we disagree, how do we resolve it? Like with the dinner time? We've done counseling forever, but for something like this, it just seems to be a "tie-breaker" for the specific issue, but doesn't carry forward. I don't want a 3-person M: me, H, and the counselor.
UGH!! Is this just a thin line and everyone struggles with it, or do I have something messed up and it's part of co-dependence or something else?
to me, a personal boundary is just something i cannot live with. it's sad if the other person doesn't like it or thinks it's unreasonable, intolerant, or uncompromising. it's what i NEED in order to NOT feel resentment.
i think your boundary WAS compromising. you stated that you would hold dinner under certain circumstances. to do anything otherwise, would have been uncompromising on your H's part. he wanted it ALL his way and was disrespectful to you and your S.
you had an obligation to your 3-year-old to feed him and put him to bed at a reasonable time.
the problem with your SS was really your H's but he tried to make it yours.
people don't always like boundaries from another person but that does not make them wrong. you have to protect yourself, IMO.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
I'm certainly getting to the point with H that I can say "too bad" if he doesn't like something, because I *have* to do it for *me*, like you said about yourself. I have a concern, though, about that turning into a "tit for tat," in that H will retaliate because he didn't like my boundary. Next time I need something from him, he's very liable to refuse out of spite (BTDT.) That's his choice and I can't control him. But then the next time he wants something from me, how do I joyfully give him what he wants when I know he has intentionally dissed me? I know that giving comes from the heart, but I'm much more inclined to be generous to someone when they're not being a jerk to me, ya know? I'm afraid it could easily turn into a stand-off. But I'm sure people dislike boundaries all the time but still manage to work it out (not always, I know.) What is the course of action for the person with the boundary in the context of someone that doesn't like it and is being nasty about it? It almost seems like I have to have another boundary regarding a reciprocal M, another seeming "ultimatum" for equity (aka. tit for tat.) UGH!
I'm not suggesting I throw out my boundaries, I'm just looking for a way to avoid that ugliness It doesn't seem like it should be this hard.
My H is a tit-for-tat person, too. I hate it! But I used to just seethe inside and then play the same game. It's passive aggressive behavior and it destroys a marriage.
I call him on it now but not in an aggressive way. I do it in a boundary-setting way. I tell him that something feels like a payback or tit-for-tat and that I can't live in that kind of relationship and will not.
So far, he's listened, mainly because he said some time ago that he doesn't like tit-for-tat behavior (ha).
But my boundary is pretty severe. I'm willing to leave our marriage rather than live with passive-aggressive behavior.
You're not Jesus. You don't have to be perfect and keep giving and giving to someone who is disrespectful towards you.
Boundaries let someone know what you will do if your core values aren't respected. It's not an ultimatum. They can be however they choose to be but will have to accept the consequences, or not. But the consequences will still be there.
I think the key, for me, has been to express my feelings before they "rot" inside me. H and I had a discussion recently where he wanted to do something that I had expressed to him months ago would be a deal breaker for me.
I had to control myself (it had to do with his adult daughter) but I advised him that I was not willing to be in a marriage where that would happen.
Had I gone along, as I used to, it would have poisoned our relationship. I won't live that way. He can do it or really, whatever he chooses to do, but my boundary is intact and it's not something I just sprung on him.
People will always try to push boundaries, especially, when they've not had to abide by them before. I look at it as getting MY life back.
M:63 H:53 S:41, SS:28, SS:25, SD:23 M:15 T:16
Bomb:12/17/11, "I think we should go our separate ways." H moves to his mother's house, 4/1/12 12/21/12: H moves back home, piecing
It might help to start in the spirit of cooperation and partnership.
"H, this really isn't working for me, can we figure out a solution that meets both are needs?"
When you do set a boundary, consider ways you might still compromise. For example, with the meal thing, you might have always saved a desert for SS in case he showed up. A quick sandwich for him and a shared desert for all.
If you believe H retailiates, report it to him:
"H, I feel like that is in retaliation for me sticking to my boundary yesterday. I feel hurt and hopeless about improving our life together when that happens. I'm sad and frustrated. I want us each to be able to respect the other's boundaries and still have an active loving partnership."
Go to the meeting. Things that seem impossibly puzzling will become much easier.
Thanks, SS. I've definitely learned to express my feelings about things before they fester. Unfortunately, I think I have a pretty short fuse now. I don't like that I can "see" the train coming down the tracks and want to get out of the way while it's still a mile away (like the sitch with your SD.) I hope things worked out well with that! I know your SD was one of your deal-breakers. I don't think my H would take it well how you put it (not willing to be in a marriage where that would happen) because any discussion of D is simply not acceptable to him (call it HIS boundary.)
Thanks, OT. The suggestion that I would cook/hold dinner if H would just let me know if/when his son was coming over WAS my attempt at a partnership approach. H agreed but then didn't do it. I would say that has always been my biggest issue -- us discussing something, coming up with an agreeable solution, then H not keeping up his end. He knows it's a problem of his, and I do too, but it creates a real encumbrance for me to want to engage with him when I know there's a good chance I won't get my needs met, even if I've met his. My "compromise" ends up looking more like involuntary sacrifice.
Anyway, just for an update. I went to a CoDA meeting this past Sunday. It wasn't quite what I expected. I had hoped for more discussion about what codependency is and how it manifests itself in people's lives and what they do to cope with/address it. Instead, it seemed rather scripted. First, they passed around the list of the 12 steps and people took turns reading one. Then administrative stuff (scheduling, collecting dues, etc.) Then they passed a Co-D book and people took turns reading a couple of paragraphs. Then they passed around a list of self-affirmation quotes and each person picked one and read it out loud. Finally, for the last half-hour, they dimmed the lights, lit candles and opened the floor for sharing (max 5 mins.) People shared where they were or what they were struggling with at the time, but there was no discussion or feedback. Just share, "thank you," and on to the next.
They had a sign that said give it six meetings before deciding. I'll try to give it that, but I'm not sure how this is going to help. Maybe it's typical. I've never done a support group before.
On the positive note, after I left and realized it wasn't everything I hoped for, I didn't fall into a slump like I might normally have done. I had started a fitness program on April 1st and it has really done a lot for my mood. Or perhaps my mood has done a lot for my fitness program. Either way, I'm feeling great. The great spring weather is a definite plus (no allergies for me!) and I'm really enjoying getting outside. And my computer time involves very little relationship reading, and instead I'm focusing on self-motivating topics, or learning good eating habits and exercises, or looking up new recipes, etc. Maybe I'm just resigned to the state of things and just don't care to work on it anymore. It's not like I was having any success anyway.
Thanks for checking in! I hope all is going well with you!
Sounds like a good meeting. It is a source of support, but not a support group or group therapy. The process works, the ritual becomes comforting, glad you'll give it 6 meetings. Keep that open mind :-)
What you referred to as "dues" is probably voluntary and probably $1 or something, yes?
