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Cross-post?

Did she enjoy her duplicity? No, I think she felt really guilty, that others would think she was a slut (hence her exact words to me). She wasn't sorry for what she did, she was sorry that she was caught and it made her look bad, sort of thing.

I agree with the idea that she didn't think she broke up our marriage - the fact is, she did. She looked at it from the outside and declared it dead, then talked more and more with x until he saw it, too (do you remember the NPD diagnosis and how the IC said I was his "object" until I lost credibility in his eyes?) and just became vocal about my "poor husband" and what he had to put up with me......She told herself, and then they told each other, that they were married to horrible people and they deserved better.


Ick....it so doesn't matter, anyway. Knowing what I was dealing with in him and his problems, I do know (well, my head knows) that I am better off out of the marriage. This is more about how I am dealing with the present situation; the exposure to my kids.

The thing is, I don't like her, I don't trust her, she doesn't deserve to be a part of my children's lives, and I actually fear for them about any exposure and influence she might try to wield. My intuition screams at me and makes me want to lash out when I see her (I don't, verbally or otherwise). She is a bad person. She grew up in this town, and I have been caught off-guard when I stumble across more stories about what she has done in her life besides this- apparently, this wasn't out of character for her.
Yes, there is evil in the world, and some of my coping mechanisms kept me blind to a lot of it for a very long time.
I have a bumper sticker that says "Mean people suck." This isn't the first time that I have been blindsided, because the possibilities of people not being "nice" just never occurs to me.

I don't want to fall asleep again to this, when it has to do with my kids.

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"I agree with the idea that she didn't think she broke up our marriage - the fact is, she did. She looked at it from the outside and declared it dead, then talked more and more with x until he saw it, too"

Why do you believe this?

You see the problem in your XM yourself. Why do you then also think she broke up your M? The M was not working.

Do you really have to hold so tightly to her being the evil siren that intentionally broke up your M that otherwise would have been fine? It wouldn't have, it wasn't.


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You know, no doubt there are bad people in the world who we should keep away from our children.

But, until you let go of your old narrative and quit being a victim, you can't really get an objective picture of whether and how GF might be a threat to your kids.

You are too invested in her being evil and thus being the reason your M failed. It makes it about YOU.

Getting to a more objective place would actually help you more when it comes to the kids.

Has she actually done anything that is mean/evil/harmful to the kids?


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I can look at my prior M now and know there were problems - I was codependent, and his is likely NPD. Stupid thing is, it was working until her involvement. Working in a healthy way? No, of course not. As another site says, water seeks its own level, and each of our dysfunctions meshed / enmeshed well.
I also recognize that if it wasn't her, it would most likely have been something else. It could very well have been me who grew dissatisfied at some point.
But I do believe that she was the actual catalyst for my M ended how and when it did.

Has she ever done anything that is harmful to the kids?
Well, destroying two families is not to be overlooked. But that isn't it.

I have never seen her as a good or competent mom to her own kids.
I saw her slap her D(then 13) across the face and throw her out of the house into the snow with no shoes or coat, locking the door behind her. The girl ran away to a friend's house (picked up later that day by her dad).
This same girl now has multiple piercings and tattoos, and just turned 17. She is allowed to date an 18 year-old drop out who has many stays in social and psych institutions.
I was witness to how she trained her little ones to be terrified of sirens. When they were within earshot, she would turn to them serious and acting scared, telling them "they are coming to get you!!" The kids would completely loose it, trying to run and find someplace to hide, sometimes even hurting themselves in the scramble. It was certainly not a game or funny to them - but their mother would stand there and laugh her ass off. It was sick and sadistic.

There are lots of other examples....

I think it is only her healthy fear of me that has kept her from doing anything to my kids.

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Funny how things converge....

D has been planning a playdate with gf's kid and their mutual friend for tomorrow. The mutual friend's mom has to work, so they asked the gf to chaperone the girls to the movies.

Ugh. So, we literally just had this convo...

I talked to her about my reservations, she told me that gf is not raising her and she has nothing to do with her, she just wants to hang out with her friends. Some built-up emotions on both sides came out. I told her I love her and my instincts want to protect her, that she can talk to me or other family and friends including her IC at any time.

I am letting her go tomorrow, even if the gf is going.

And it is not because I trust that woman any more than I did, but I trust my daughter.

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X called - when he spoke with D11 tonight, I guess she said we had a good talk. He wanted to thank me. He knew it must be hard for me.

I just said it is all about the kids - D wants to see her friend.

I don't trust or respect your gf.

It is all about the kids.

He said thanks again and then the cell dropped the signal.


Don't I feel special.

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I'm not sure what to say. I've read through the conversation today and it's so nuts. I understand the need for forgiveness and letting go, in fact I whole-heartedly agree. As MWD quipped, Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves.

But forgiveness is for past injuries. And for injuries to be in the past the injury has to have stopped somehow. At no point does that mean the injured party has to subject themselves to more injury -- and it certainly does not mean they have to trust the offending party. Trust only comes when there is some degree of reconciliation, and reconciliation does not even begin to any degree until both parties agree to bury the hatchet and forgive each other. Again, they still do not necessarily have to have even a friendship at that point. But there's no reconciliation in any degree if one party continues to injure and maintain hostilities against the other (for either side.)

Personally, I believe Donna is fully within her rights to not trust the ex and his A partner. There has been no contrition at all on their part. For that reason I do not feel it healthy in any way to pretend the situation is otherwise, even if it is the pretense of making peace for the children. At best you have a detente, but Peace it is not -- and no one is well served by feigning otherwise. Everyone can and will see though it anyway, even the children.

The healing in forgiveness is that it allows us to cope with the injury and continue with our lives, but it doesn't mean we continue to expose ourselves to people known to be a threat or to have no conscience in seeking their own selfish ends. It is only natural for a parent to hold reservations about your children being exposed to people with such poor character. And while there are circumstances where we just do not have any control over who has such access to our children, by no means should we be expected to like it much less embrace it.

If I manage to survive the bite of a snake, I might be able to forgive it, but never trust it. If it remains a threat to me and my family, I will take measures to protect myself and my loved ones. Wisdom merely dictates that I not allow the past injury to wreck my life going forward, to learn from it and move forward. To forgive but not forget.

But the advice I hear given to Donna is alarming. And I shake my head at the veiled assertion that Donna has somehow been a terrible person for not embracing people known to be treacherous. I don't get that -- we're not supposed to "assume" the adulterous waywards were anything but innocent star-crossed lovers who meant no one any harm, but somehow Donna is the offender for not accepting them with open arms? Somehow she is the one who is thereby harming her children?

Again, I understand the power of Forgiveness to free ourselves from bondage to past injuries. But this is going a bit too far.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
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NCB,

Excellent post. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I don't buy the whole idea that her ex-h and OW had the affair because they were dealing with their own pain and anguish. I think two people can be so self-absorbed with themselves that they become selfish and are only concerned in satisfying their own physical and emotional desires regardless of who it impacts(i.e. spouse and children). Also, in my book pain and suffering do not justify adultery, there are steps an unsatisfied spouse can take (counseling, legal separation/divorce) before ASSuming another emotional/physical realtionship outside the marriage.

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"And I shake my head at the veiled assertion that Donna has somehow been a terrible person for not embracing people known to be treacherous."

NoCode,

Can you tone down the rhetoric a bit? I am certainly not suggesting that Donna is a terrible person, nor is anyone else as far as I can see. Nor am I suggesting that Donna accept her XH or his GF with open arms. I think they'd be far better off keeping things strictly business. Nor do I think she has reason to trust either of them with her welfare. They have built no trust with her.

The question is: what is within her control to make her kids' life better?

The answer is: she can gain some compassion for XH and GF to get further down the road to forgiveness.

It does no good for any of them for her to remain in a hypervigilant state of war against an enemy in a battle that no longer exists.


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Who said anything about justifying adultery? I said their pain did NOT justify their actions.

The point here is to try to gain a more objective perspective on what was going on in their lives, exercise compassion, forge some forgiveness.

If their actions were justified, forgiveness would hardly be necessary.


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