Which brings me back to the answer for this thread: you cannot "fix" something that the other partner does not want to or will not let you fix. Period.
The can only be changed if something or greater risk is brought forward so that "fixing" the original problem becomes preferable.
The Captain
Yep, that's the boat I'm in. And I don't have anything of "greater risk" to bring forward to convince him to fix. He will have to decide that for himself.
Originally Posted By: Young at Heart
This is why (in my opinion) a good change agent (for an SSM, say a board certified sex therapist) is so helpful in making sure that the person who doesn't want to change understands the full ramifications of what change and not changing really mean. Good luck to you in your journey.
Not sure who you think doesn't want to change- in my case, the person who needs the change as far as SSM is concerned is mainly me, but as I said, he will not let me do anything about it anymore. I now understand the ramifications of not changing, but as he says, "it's too late".
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
...Not sure who you think doesn't want to change- in my case, the person who needs the change as far as SSM is concerned is mainly me, but as I said, he will not let me do anything about it anymore. I now understand the ramifications of not changing, but as he says, "it's too late".
I can only share my experience. My wife said she was not going to change, because there was nothing wrong with her. The two therapists helped her sort out her emotions (anger toward me) and then helped identify "baby steps" that she could take, if she wanted to take them. They then pointed out that change was going to happen one way or the other (divorce or my working with her to have us become sexual partners). Luckily for me I had changed the way I treated her and started to make her feel loved in her languages of love a few months earlier. Ultimately, be both have changed since last September.
For my wife and myself, I believe it turned out not to be "too late."
You and your husband are the only two people who really know if change is no longer possible.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Jaime, I am about where your H is now. Married 23 years, sex petered out before we even got married. The excuse before marriage was she was feeling guilty about premarital and that it would be fine once we married. No sex our wedding night, and only one time during our 8 day honeymoon. Average about once a month since then with some periods of several months without. All indications are she doesn't like it, but when asked she'll say she does. The last few years I've been trying to make it clear to her how much not wanting it has hurt me, and now I think her therapist is telling her similar. She's now taking an interest in pleasuring me, but still will often not let me do anything to her and as a result it feels more like a favor than something she's doing because she enjoys it. As a result, even though it is a need for me, getting "serviced" makes me feel guilty, dirty and just awful for wanting it from someone that it seems doesn't want it. It's to the point now that it is less painful to turn it down than to go through with it and deal with my shitty feelings afterwards. Too little too late? Yeah, I suppose it could be that. I appreciate that she's making the effort, but it rings hollow after all these years and with her continued reluctance to allow me to reciprocate.
GGB- I don't post on my thread anymore here and definitely do not use that name anymore, but have a few comments.
1) if you haven't read the Sex-Starved Marriage, buy it. TODAY. Do not wait for Amazon, go get it at the bookstore right now. Read it, whether your W will or not, though it would open her eyes greatly if she's at all receptive. I wish I'd gotten my hands on it years ago- you will feel like it was written about you (and her) specifically. It helped me really get what my H must've felt for so long, even though he'd tried to tell me many times. It also gives you some insight that I think it's hard for HD person to have about the LD person. Seriously, get it.
2) The fact that she is trying to please you is good- let her!and appreciate it- this is a positive step and having been at that exact place, it's sometimes it's all the LD person can do, even if you don't understand why it's hard for her to do anything else right now. Receive it for what it is: a gift of love and a sign that she is trying to break out of her rut.
3) If you still want to work on things with her, first, seek out MC with someone who deals a lot w/sex issues if you aren't already going. Do it now. That person may suggest W sees a sex therapist- might be better heard coming from that person than you.
4) work on other stuff with her- other NON-SEXUAL affection that you assure her is not a prelude to sex. Otherwise, her anxiety will rise and she'll probably balk. Again, you don't need to understand why, and it doesn't mean she doesn't care greatly about you. You need to maintain whatever non-sexual physical intimacy you can right now so it doesn't die. Ask her what she'd like to do that is not sexual. Get a massage? Snuggle? Assure her it is not going to lead to sex. Both of you need this right now.
5) I don't know your sitch- whether you have kids, how good the rest of the R is etc. (sorry, don't have time to look right now). I am not making a suggestion for you here, I am just going to say that it took a drastic announcement on my H's part to wake me up. You need to see action and no more talk, I am assuming. She must know that for real, and it's your job to make sure she knows where your bottom line is with this and the M. Also, if she's been trying to tell you the "why" of her issues with sex and you have not been listening, do it now. I'm not saying it's your fault, but it's likely it's at least partly tied to your R and emotions around it. If she's asked you for changes, I'd suggest you check in with her about what those are and specificially what you can do that she wants to see changed. And do not expect she will suddenly want to have sex with you- this will take time, if you're willing to invest it.
I wish you luck--
-alice
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
Thanks Alice. I have the book, bought it about the time I registered here. It helped a little, but not much. MrsGGB as far as I know has never looked at it, in fact I think she passed it on to a HDW friend. I've also got a stack of R books including Passionate M, 5LL's, NMMNG, and about a dozen others that I've read cover to cover.
Talking to her, part of the problem is she doesn't like the out of control feeling leading up to an O and that makes her panicky, which in turn makes her try to shun it.
She's in IC now, has been for 2 years. Doesn't want to do MC while she's in IC. She's got self esteem and body image issues as well. She also does not reveal herself much, says to be afraid that I won't like her if I knew all of her.
Been working on the non-sexual for a long time. It only goes so far and seems to fill her needs but leaves me high and dry.
My sitch is married 23 years, 6 kids S20,S17,S13,D12,S6 and S5. Catholic. She's a SAHM by choice, previously in an IT profession. We both have technical master's degrees. I work from home with an engineering design consulting business. Sex has been an issue since we got married, but I didn't get vocal about it until about 6 years ago. Lots of buried hurt and resentment built up there that I can't always let go of. We've also got communications issues, attempted mind reading on both parts. So yup, we are a mess and it is amazing I suppose that we've made it 23 years.
GGB- wow, I'm sorry, this sounds sad and complicated. You've probably already thought of this, but is it possible there's a history of abuse here?
That's interesting about the "out of control feeling leading up to an O ". Have you or her IC suggested she try on her own without you there, to get a better feel for her body and be more relaxed with no pressure (even if it's imagined pressure)?
Do you have a priest at your church you could talk to if she won't go to MC? I don't see a problem with both MC and IC, so not sure why she's reluctant. How long does she plan to stay in IC? If you have to wait for her to be done with that, you could be waiting a long time. It sounds to me like you definitely have issues as a couple that she can only make so much progress with in IC. Have you considered IC yourself if she won't do MC? Especially to address the "buried hurt and resentment built up there that I can't always let go of."? I don't think you have anything to lose by having an outlet yourself where you can sort through your feelings. Otherwise, more hurt and resentment is just going to keep building. If you plan to be together the rest of your life, that's a lot of hurt.
Some people have mentioned Retrovaille, which has a Christian basis- have you looked into that? Does she realize exactly how at the end of your rope you are?
You mentioned you've read SSM. Have you tried talking to her about her feelings that are described in the book (she doesn't have to read it, nor do you have to say you're talking from the book), so she feels really understood? Does she have a strong commitment to improving physical relations with you? It would be nice if you could come up with some goals to work towards together. At some point- and I know this b/c I'm the LD spouse, she will have to push herself and take a little risk to push through that anxiety if you guys are going to make progress here. A sex IC or MC could probably help a lot with that...
Have you tried writing her a heartfelt, non-blaming letter to describe how much this is hurting you and how you want and need physical intimacy with her?
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
We did go to WW Marriage Encounter a few years ago, and it helped in the short term but tanked within 2 weeks of coming home because she didn't feel comfortable sharing her feelings, instead she explained her actions when we tried to dialog rather than revealing her feelings. From little glimpses I've gotten inside her it seems that she's not feeling "in love" and that she's hurting a lot too (Last fall I point blank asked her if she felt in-love, explaining what I meant and she told me no but then later retracted that a few days later).
As far as she's let on, there was no sexual or physical abuse, but her mother was extremely emotionally abusive, and was a manipulative mean-drunk alcoholic. Her dad backed up anything her mom did/said without ever looking into the real story. So yes, there are issues lurking there. She cut off communication with her parents after our 3rd year of marriage after a bunch of shenanigans her mother pulled telling friends I was abusing W, that our oldest had something wrong with him (he graduated at the top of his class in a private high school that sends 98% of its students to 4 year colleges). She feels like she is a failure to me, and a failure to the kids. This doesn't help any and makes it like walking on eggshells.
I've suggested she try MB, but she won't have anything to do with that. I've explained the reason is not some sick perversion of mine, but rather as a way for her to get more comfortable with her sexuality. She's never touched herself other than for hygiene. I think her IC suggested the same, but I am not sure. She said the IC isn't working on her sex life yet, that she has to sort through her other issues first.
I'm realizing that I myself have sunk into a kind of deep depression. Taking the quizzes on-line, it is described as "severe depression", so I am trying to get the funds together to get into IC myself. I am a little reluctant because treatment for severe depression is disqualifying for a pilot's license (I fly for a hobby), and flying is like therapy for me. I'm sure the depression is linked tightly to our marital problems.
I've spent most of the past 6 years trying to sort out what my contribution is to all this and find it very hard to find the flaws looking in the mirror. She has said that I can be critical, so I try to catch myself to prevent it, but most of the time I can't see it. Lately I get moody, and am finding it difficult to focus on work as well as getting things done around the house, but I can't seem to shake it. The worst part is all this is deeply affecting the kids too.
Can't type as much for awhile- forearms sore. Few brief notes:
- see your doc re: anti-depressants. Even for temp use they can make a world of difference. Hey, is it self-reporting for the pilot's license? Let's just say that I have a friend w/ a hobby like that and you can choose what you want to share on the app. Also, therapy may be at least partly covered under your insurance- check it out. There are ways to code visits and diagnoses that do not say "depression". Go in as someone having marital comm issues and tell therapist you need that on the insurance forms. The depression will be discussed as a side effect of the primary issues. If they won't work with you on the code, find someone else. When we went to MC, she coded it with the "V" codes- this is more of an adjustment/ relationship problem description and any IC should be aware of these codes. She specifically said she would change the code to some other appropriate one (there's often more than one that logically fits) if our insurance didn't cover it under the first, so there is wiggle room here. I actually recommend if you can go in w/dep not being the presenting problem, as it may follow you around on insurance issues, etc. forever. But do NOT take that as a reason to not seek treatment, please. - how long does her IC see her working on other issues before sex? could be years! - Affecting kids- does she get that? That that is a HUGE reason to work on things as quickly as possible- not only for her and IC but for you as a couple? Can you get through to her that way?
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
