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I would love some advice from people on this sex forum, as that's my husband's #1 complaint. My story. I've read some of your posts and a few of you here could be my husband (TeaEarlGray, for instance). So I'd like perspectives from both sides.

I guess we're in Last Resort phase now. My husband wants to S. I know he has a lot of hurt and rejection issues over sex with me. We have been to therapy (he won't go anymore, even just to work on me, on whom he blames all of our problems- I was willing to go just to fix myself but he won't anymore). I have already been through the stages where I admitted what I screwed up on, took full ownership, apologized, empathized with his feelings and offered a 180 of sex whenever he wanted it, and he turned me down, said "I'm done- too little, too late". (I'm simplifying, but this is our last interaction about the topic about a week ago).

So how the hell do I "work on" changing my behavior through actions if he refuses to be intimate with or consider sex with me??? Any insight or advice is welcome. It feels totally off-limits to do anything affectionate like hugging or kissing- I have strong vibes from him that he feels very final about a D (but he is so angry right now he can't see straight), and that he doesn't welcome my touching him. Would it help if I started with things like touching his arm or something that feels less intrusive/ intimate? Btw, I already have a life and am attractive, active and don't need to lose weight.

To the HD H's on here who have felt rejected by their wives-- at the point where you felt like your wife would never change, was there anything (and what was it) that she could've done to prove you wrong? In addition to frequency issues, was it that you wanted her to WANT sex as much as you did, i.e., her just having it and participating with a good attitude when you wanted to - and even maybe enjoying herself - wasn't enough- that you needed her to feel that same WANT that you did? In my case, I show my love many other ways besides sex, but it seems they don't count when the sex isn't as frequent as he wants- do you notice those other ways your wives show love, or do those things not matter at all to you if the sex isn't there?

I have some non-sex questions too- (already posted these in newcomers and didn't get much advice on these- sorry, I know this is the sex forum, but I'd really like your insight on the other things I can work on that he complained about - and perhaps they can get me closer to a point where he would consider sex)-- but I'm confused as to how to work on them AND be the non-pursuing, non-bugging spouse:

- me not acting very happy all the time, complaining and giving him the silent treatment rather than talking to him when I'm angry (I'm working hard on this, not complaining or nagging, lowering expectations of him re: childcare, trying to be cheerful, etc. but in the state we're in- possibly LR - it feels unsafe to talk to him about anything I've been angry about now-- correct?)

- me not consulting him before making plans or decisions (if I want to continue to have a life and show him I'm fine without him if I need to be, is it undermining that attitude to ask if he minds if I go out with friends and would he watch our D? That is one example of his that he asked me to do. It feels like asking permission of him, though = being reliant on him and giving him the power. Thoughts on how to work on this without losing my power? I am working on asking his opinion on other decisions instead of just deciding.

- he didn't feel like he was a priority to me (mostly b/c of lack of sex). I'm confused about how to work on this one w/out sex and also w/out doing things Michele recommends against like going out of my way to do little things for him, etc.- that's pursuing, right? How do I show him he's a priority without giving off "I'm trying desperately to win you back" vibes and if I can't give him sex? Any tips? He gives off strong vibes that kissing or hugging him isn't welcome at this time. Would it help a little bit to open the door if I did something non-threatening like touching his arm once in awhile?

thanks so much--

Jaime


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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He seems to have withdrawn completely. Have you previously promised to have more sex and then not followed through? Perhaps he's playing the 'actions speak louder than words' card.

Touching is a great start - it does carry love and meaning - but only if the other persons love language is touch. (See the 5 Love Languages - it seems to help a lot of people over here).

You say (on the other thread) that he plays a lot of games. Could you take part in these? A lot of games these days are co-op (meaning 2 players working together). If he needs the time to just veg out and withdraw - he might just need that.

He wants to feel more in control. Really he sounds like a classic case of a 'nice guy' thats at the end of the road. Don't take unilateral decisions for both of you - you might need to think about wording things so it doesn't sound like begging (to you) and doesn't look like a direct order(to him).

Talking about stuff is ok. Getting angry isn't. Take deep breaths and always talk in terms of 'I'. I feel, I think(requesting) rather than You don't or You should(blaming).

For some men sex is a verification of love. For me so is massage - but it sounds like both of those may be a distance off. Light touches, just putting your hand over his in bed.

You've said you've talked to him. Have you thought about writing him a letter? It could be that he prefers written communication to oral. (I tend to get very clammed up and the words just don't come out right when talking about sensitive issues - this can lead to pure avoidance).

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Thanks MarriedWolf, for the thoughtful response. Yes, he has said that about the actions before. And he perceives himself as a nice guy, though I don't really see him the same way. He feels like a "chump" for hanging in here as long as he has. But while he has complained sporadically about sex over the years, 99% of the time has acted happy, carefree, satisfied, etc. on a daily basis until he finally blew up a few months ago out of the blue. He stuffs his feelings down til they boil over. So yes, I've told him I'd work on it, with mixed success- you don't always get it right the first time- but in the middle of me trying, he said he was done (this was a few months I got, one whole month of which I was initiating and having more sex than we'd had in the past year), so I feel like I was destined to fail before starting. He let me try for a few months and then declared himself "done". I know he doesn't believe I can change, but how can I show him anything if he won't let me? Very frustrating.

His game is something I have no experience in and no interest- actually, I believe (and he has said) that he uses it to escape life and ME. So playing with him doesn't seem like a wise thing.

I'm hoping some others will respond here-- than you for writing back.

Jaime


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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Right now you're feeding into his ego. He's acting like a spoiled child right now. It's the "you hurt me, so I'm not going to be your friend" playground mentality.

IMO you shouldn't just give it to him and give into every outrageous request he has. He has taken no ownership for what he has done.

You know two things: he wants sex, he wants escape. He says he wants to escape from you, but that's not it. He wants escape from himself. He doesn't know what he wants and is seriously messed up. Sorry, if any guy passes up sex for videogames, there's something wrong.

My suggestion would be to not offer him sex outright but tempt him with the possibility of it. Get yourself very sexy, dress confidently and alluringly. Flirt with him lightly, but not too over the top. Make yourself the prize that you are and give yourself value.

You have to get him to WANT you. It'll take some time and won't be an overnight thing, but it is possible. Play the temptress who chooses to have sex when she wants to. Not when he does.

When you show yourself confidently, sexily and change your attitude such that you almost become a different woman (think Sandy in Grease), it'll show him positive possibilities and that's what you want.

No one wants something they can get for free.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Ok Mr. Bond, I might try that. He may just lock down the wanting and not let himself want b/c he feels so hurt and rejected from the past, but I can at least try, right?

Though, he may be very suspicious. I AM the LD spouse and have my own issues around that (just bought SSM book), have wondered if something is wrong with me, etc. I enjoy sex mostly, just seem to have no innate interest in it anymore and he knows this. So I suppose I will have to be very subtle.

Yes, he hasn't taken any responsibility for anything pretty much. He HAS said "I'm confused" several times recently, but has said he wants to S before and after saying that. I don't know which one is real. And sometimes I wonder why do I still love him and want to work things out? I know if he refused to EVER take ownership I couldn't be with him, but I guess I'm hoping for a possibility (he's done it before for smaller things so I know he's capable - but may not be willing) that he will.

It just amazes me, too, even with all my self-insight and therapy (believe me, I have a lot) that it's possible for him to rewrite our history so badly and blame me, not only for our R but for his feeling rejected and unloved as a person. He had a childhood history of this long before I met him, yet when the therapist asked him if that could be at all related to or amplifying his feelings of rejection by me, he said "Absolutely not. I have never felt this way until I met Jaime". So frustrating.

Bond- were you/are you the HD spouse? What would have made you believe your spouse wanted to make a real change? Was/is it imperative that she want sex as much as you do, or just that she had fun participating when you wanted it? I think I can do the latter, but the former may be outside of my control.

Jaime


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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Originally Posted By: jaime_ca
...I would love some advice from people on this sex forum, as that's my husband's #1 complaint.

...I've read some of your posts and a few of you here could be my husband (TeaEarlGray, for instance). So I'd like perspectives from both sides.

I guess we're in Last Resort phase now. My husband wants to S. I know he has a lot of hurt and rejection issues over sex with me. We have been to therapy (he won't go anymore, even just to work on me, on whom he blames all of our problems- I was willing to go just to fix myself but he won't anymore). I have already been through the stages where I admitted what I screwed up on, took full ownership, apologized, empathized with his feelings and offered a 180 of sex whenever he wanted it, and he turned me down, said "I'm done- too little, too late". (I'm simplifying, but this is our last interaction about the topic about a week ago).

So how the hell do I "work on" changing my behavior through actions if he refuses to be intimate with or consider sex with me??? Any insight or advice is welcome. It feels totally off-limits to do anything affectionate like hugging or kissing- I have strong vibes from him that he feels very final about a D (but he is so angry right now he can't see straight), and that he doesn't welcome my touching him. Would it help if I started with things like touching his arm or something that feels less intrusive/ intimate? Btw, I already have a life and am attractive, active and don't need to lose weight.

To the HD H's on here who have felt rejected by their wives-- at the point where you felt like your wife would never change, was there anything (and what was it) that she could've done to prove you wrong? In addition to frequency issues, was it that you wanted her to WANT sex as much as you did, i.e., her just having it and participating with a good attitude when you wanted to - and even maybe enjoying herself - wasn't enough- that you needed her to feel that same WANT that you did? In my case, I show my love many other ways besides sex, but it seems they don't count when the sex isn't as frequent as he wants- do you notice those other ways your wives show love, or do those things not matter at all to you if the sex isn't there?......


Quote:
....Since our daughter was born I’ve realized that I don’t have much of a partner in parenting, causing much anger and resentment. He also is addicted to video games and spends hours – often instead of with me and D – on computer. His complaint is not enough sex (true, but I’ve been so resentful and felt emotionally abandoned it’s the last thing I feel like- plus I have a physical issue to contend with.)....


Congratulations for realizing what your role in your relationship problem is and for wanting to save your marriage and provide a family setting for your daughter.

I think that you have been given a lot of good advice. In particular on the other thread the New York times article of providing a summer of unconditional love, I thought was a truly inspiring story. In your posts I hear anger, I hear a lack of unconditional love for your husband. But most of all I see language of someone who has not yet forgiven her husband. And yes, touching his arm in the most nonsexual of ways may help.

I will give you a few thoughts from the other side.

First, you say you have "got a life" and don't need to improve anything. Actually, in fairness you said, "Btw, I already have a life and am attractive, active and don't need to lose weight." I would argue that the purpose of getting a life is to also provide a leadership example for how one can change as inspiration to your spouse. That means doing something that is a dramatic change in who you are that makes you interesting and "attractive to your spouse." The attraction doesn't need to be physical, but it probably helps.

To me there are lots of potential GAL things that you could do that might change his mind about who you are and make you a lot more interesting to your husband, that you obviously still care about.

If his thing is "sex" and "video games," what do you know about these aspects of his life? I am not saying you need or should do any of the following, just are there any that you might find mildly amusing/interesting that you could consider as a powerful 180?

Is there some aspects of sex that he craves that you just haven't wanted to be part of (positions, specific acts, role-playing, fetishes, costumes) that might change his mind about who is this woman he married?

Have you ever thought about signing up for say belling dancing lessons or say pole dancing lessons, or maybe (what would melt my heart) massage lessons? Have you ever thought about getting a tatoo? What do you think he would say to your geting a "tramp-stamp" lower back tatoo?(not sure I would do that, but they can be later removed) None of these things have to directly involve sex, just shaking up his image of who you are. Have you ever thought about hosting a sex toy party for some of your women friends or signing up for a local sex shop course on anything from vibrators to bondage for beginners, and asking your husband if he could like to attend with you?

If all of these are just too over the top for you, how about a new hair style, a new make-up set, and one or two new outfits that change the way you look? Think of Stacy and Clinton in the "What not to wear" TV show and how changing an image changed other's perceptions and lives.

What about his video gaming? Is it fantasy based (probably) and if so what kind of fantasy is is based on? Warriors, combat soldiers, wizzardry? Let's say it is based on warriors? Have you ever thought of signing up for say a kick boxing areobic workout routine? Have you ever thought about signing up for fencing lessons? If it is about soldiers, have you ever thought about taking karate lessons or possibly joining the NRA and taking a shooting self defence course or maybe joining a pistol league at a local range (they are always looking for new members and try to be real women friendly)?

The point of this is that you might in your GAL program figure out something that might "draw you closer together" ...whether it is performing for him as a dancer or turning him into your private voyure. Similarly, it could be being able to discuss combat techniques or things that he finds interesting in his gaming with you. If his favorite firearm in shoot-em-up video game is a streetsweeper 12 gauge shotgun, and you tell him that you have fired one at a pay-to-shoot gun range in Nevada and preferred the Thompson 45 ACP submachine gun, he might view you and value your opinions in a whole different way. Have you really read any of his gaming magazines (it could be a nice present to him if he doesn't have any) and studied them to learn about his "world" and interests?

If he were a Star-Trek groupie, have you ever thought of giving him a present to one of their convensions, aranging for babysitting for an extended weekend and a sexy Start-Trek character costume for yourself? Find out what his gaming fantasies are and see if there isn't something you could do or provide him as a present that would draw the two of you closer in something that he loves to do, that isn't directly sex. Be careful not to push him or smoother him. Once you have his mind and interest, the sex you want might follow.

Obviously, you need to figure out how far your integrety will allow you go to "humor him" and become interesting to him, but you sounded like you were willing to stretch quite a bit. Getting a life should be about helping you add positive experiences and skills to your life that you may not put in high priority in the past. Adding self defense skills (you choose the method) is, if you really think about it, a way to improve confidence and add something positive to your life.

In a like way, doing 180's is a way of viewing your relationship as the ultimate sociology experiment and finding out what does and doesn't work with your spouse, if you have the time/patience. The above can also be viewed it the specific things don't appeal to you under GAL as possible 180's that you try to see if they have an effect upon your husband.

My second comment, is that it also sounds like your husband needs some space and distance, which is why he commented about a separation. I would suggest that you not drive him out of the house.

My third comment goes back to the NY Times article advice in the other thread. You need to understand that you can only change yourself. You can not force your husband to do anything. At best you can inspire him through his watching you change to try to change himself to keep up with you.

My final comment is about Chapman's Five Languages of Love. What are your husband's primary and secondary languages of love and are you making him feel loved in those languages? You might be surprised that "just sex" is not one of the languages of love, but that it is related to "touch." Some men when they feel unloved and a need for connection only know that sex is the only way their experience has taught them that they feel connected. I know a lot of men who really want to be hugged as much or more by their wives as they want sex, but sex usually results in getting hugged so they go for the short-cut.

What are your husbands languages of love and what can you do to make him feel loved without having sex? Once you figure that out, ask yourself what are your languages of love and what will make you feel loved? When he does something to make you feel loved, praise him. When you do something for him that he says makes him feel loved, figure out how to do it again in another week or several days or how to work it into a routine or ritual.

My wife is a quality time and act of service person. My rituals include trying to get her coffee in the morning and while she is drinking it asking what she is going to do during the day, and making the bed when she is in the shower getting ready for work. At night during dinner I ask her about her day and at bed try to give her a back massage. Her recent ritual is to hug me when I come home from work and hold me for several second prior to finishing making dinner for me.

Good luck to you. There are others who will probably give you much better advice as they have more experience in what you are experiencing that me.


>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
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Y@H- thank you for your thoughtful response! Let's see if I can address some of these points.
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In your posts I hear anger, I hear a lack of unconditional love for your husband. But most of all I see language of someone who has not yet forgiven her husband.


Yes, I'm angry- or I have been. Unconditional love? You're right, neither of us has it for the other. How common do you think that is around here, just curious? We've both been hurt fairly badly and forgiveness will take awhile yet, so you're right in what you say.

Quote:
Is there some aspects of sex that he craves that you just haven't wanted to be part of (positions, specific acts, role-playing, fetishes, costumes) that might change his mind about who is this woman he married?


Not a lot- fantasizing verbally with him, mostly. But I can't do that now b/c he won't be intimate at ALL with me. Other than that, just the strength of my desire and frequency were his complaints. Again, hard to work on if he's cut off all sexual contact.
Quote:

Have you ever thought about signing up for say belling dancing lessons or say pole dancing lessons, or maybe (what would melt my heart) massage lessons? Have you ever thought about getting a tatoo? What do you think he would say to your geting a "tramp-stamp" lower back tatoo?(not sure I would do that, but they can be later removed)


I've taken belly dancing before, and have no idea what would "melt his heart". He wants to be loved, be my #1 priority and given lots of sex. But his heart is so locked down right now, I'm not sure how to get in those ways. Don't think he really likes tatoos, though I've considered one (not for DBing, for me).

Quote:
Have you ever thought about hosting a sex toy party for some of your women friends or signing up for a local sex shop course on anything from vibrators to bondage for beginners, and asking your husband if he could like to attend with you?


Yes, I have, with my mom's group of all things. And, although you have some great ideas, again, he doesn't want to do anything sex-related with me right now, so I don't know that this is a good idea at all. The last time I offered him sex he said "I'm done with you and sex", period, end of subject. I would just piss him off and embarrass myself to offer or suggest it again, or anything related to sex right now, I think. This is my dilemma!

Quote:
What about his video gaming? Is it fantasy based (probably) and if so what kind of fantasy is is based on? Warriors, combat soldiers, wizzardry? Let's say it is based on warriors? Have you ever thought of signing up for say a kick boxing areobic workout routine? Have you ever thought about signing up for fencing lessons? If it is about soldiers, have you ever thought about taking karate lessons or possibly joining the NRA and taking a shooting self defence course or maybe joining a pistol league at a local range (they are always looking for new members and try to be real women friendly)?


Yes, it's World of Warcraft. This is a complaint of his- that I've shown no interest in his game- the game that he lost himself in when I was pregnant and all through our baby's infancy, leaving me to struggle mostly alone. It is like the OW to me so of course I want nothing to do with it, can't even talk about it. Yes, I obviously have anger about this, as he's chosen it time and again over me and our D for years now. But to answer your question- I haven't really considered those things b/c they're not things I like (which they should be to be part of my GAL, right?), except the range shooting. Money is very tight right now and he's scrutinizing our spending, so anything "extra" just has to be thought out carefully. But I'll consider the shooting.

Quote:
The point of this is that you might in your GAL program figure out something that might "draw you closer together" ...


I thought GAL was to do stuff for ME? Do you have a different view? I'm a bit confused, but also appreciate your creative thinking on this. Ideally, it'd be something I both liked and that intrigued him, I guess.

Quote:

Have you really ... studied them to learn about his "world" and interests? ... Find out what his gaming fantasies are and see if there isn't something you could do or provide him as a present that would draw the two of you closer in something that he loves to do, that isn't directly sex. Be careful not to push him or smoother him. Once you have his mind and interest, the sex you want might follow.


I don't mean at all to shoot down your ideas, but he will be very suspicious at this point of anything I do, having been so adamant about separating. And the game, well see above. It really feels to me like asking "Honey, how's your OW doing? Did you have a nice time in bed with her last night?" So it would be a 180 for me to show interest in it, but he would be suspicious. Maybe I can try a very teeny show of interest.

Quote:
In a like way, doing 180's is a way of viewing your relationship as the ultimate sociology experiment and finding out what does and doesn't work with your spouse, if you have the time/patience.


That's a great way to view it. If it weren't such an emotional issue and I didn't feel like my whole life as I know it was at stake, I could be a little more detached!

Quote:

My second comment, is that it also sounds like your husband needs some space and distance, which is why he commented about a separation. I would suggest that you not drive him out of the house.


No intention of driving him out of the house at this point. If nothing else, it's better for my D that we remain intact for now. Yes, I think he needs some distance, but some days I'm not sure. It's hard to tell- he definintely still wants/expects certain things from me (empathy about his bad day and all the ways in which he feels victimized - my words, not his- and for me to help him with his finances and 401K, etc.)- like he doesn't realize that these things go hand in hand with being a partner you're with, not one you're trying to separate from. Does he think he can announce an S but continue to use all my help and knowledge?

Quote:

My final comment is about Chapman's Five Languages of Love. What are your husband's primary and secondary languages of love and are you making him feel loved in those languages? You might be surprised that "just sex" is not one of the languages of love, but that it is related to "touch." Some men when they feel unloved and a need for connection only know that sex is the only way their experience has taught them that they feel connected. I know a lot of men who really want to be hugged as much or more by their wives as they want sex, but sex usually results in getting hugged so they go for the short-cut.


I know nothing about this. Is there a website you can suggest? I've got a pile of books waiting to be read already, so web is good.

Thank you so much for your advice, and I hope to hear from you again--

Jaime


When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go;
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow;
Go ask Alice...
I think she'll know.
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Originally Posted By: jaime_ca
...I know nothing about this. Is there a website you can suggest? I've got a pile of books waiting to be read already, so web is good....


Chapman.org website and tests to determine love languages

P.S. His book (at least the one I read) really has almost all religion stripped out of it.

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Originally Posted By: jaime_ca
I would love some advice from people on this sex forum, as that's my husband's #1 complaint. My story. I've read some of your posts and a few of you here could be my husband (TeaEarlGray, for instance).


Okay, I'll bite. In what way?

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
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Quote:
Unconditional love?


This is something that I have marked to remind myself.

To Love someone unconditionally is to not care who they are or what they do.

Unconditional Love, on the surface, looks the same as indifference.


The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
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