I guess what I'm looking for is clarification of what that sentence implies -- to save the marriage one has to remain vulnerable to some degree. Is that the basic argument?
Yes. And I'm asking whether the degree to which you need to detach in order to "be okay with divorce" hinders your ability to be sufficiently vulnerable in order to save the marriage.
yeah, I think it could stimulate some great discussion.
I have tended to see more success from the "willing to jump into the mosh pit" crowd than the "one foot on the platform" folks (of which I am a card-carrying member in good standing), so there's a reason I'm asking.
Your long post at the beginning hits home with me so much. Well, in my case, H said he had done a lot of work and looked inside and knew where he went wrong (when he left I WAS THE ONLY ONE making mistakes, progress there ) and bla bla bla but after 8 months, I can tell you he has no idea what kind of work is involved to get passed this "phase" of our M (if we survive that is). He ignores basic principles I did too but I dont anymore about relationships. An example, I read and read and still read. He never read anything that could be of use to him/us. He ignores my LL, how can I feel loved when he continues to love me the way HE wants to be loved? Sure enough, I dont. But again, I remind myself he does what he knows, trying to hold on. I recognise his good intention.I DO the work again. Fair? I dont think so. Necessary? If I want this, then yes...
So, to asnwer your question according to MY experience I will tell you that sadly the LBS needs to continue with the work and make changes happen sometimes only with the silent agreement of the WAS. Why? Because they didnt go thru the same level of PAIN and that pain is what made us all look deep inside. This is why I told fb2, that I cant relate to Coach and Greek very much because they BOTH showed/show the same level of maturity and committement with ACTIONS AFTER the "break" in their marriage. Which I think is very rare. Very few WAS, come back ready to do what needs to be done, consciously trying to break old habbits and "make up" if I dare use that word.
"This"? Well, THIS is limited to the 2 same people creating it. Because "this" -the dead marriage- I agree with you is over and history. IMO, nothing can bring the old relationship back to life and in my case I wouldnt want that. It's like an earthquake shuttering a town. The town is rebuilt, but not as it was. The foundations are built stronger, experts make studies, learn from past mistakes and there are changes. Old-crappy buildings are not restored, they are completely taken down because the earthquake gave "an opportunity" to get rid off them, new ones are built WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that an earthquake MAY happen again but at least now "people" can do whatever it takes to avoid the "fatal consequences". (Hmm that was pretty scary to try and express it in English, hope it makes sense, LOL...)
But, now YOU get to evaluate if you want to move to another town or stay here because you like it. You didnt want the earthquake to happen, it happened, but you sure are responsible for the weak foundation your house was built on.
Responsibility. I no longer feel resposnible for the 100% of why my M went this way. To be honest, I feel that my responsibility is less than 50% and that IS dangerous, I know. But that is the way I feel. And I do own my mistakes, trust me, but he needs to own his. Without "ownership" of the mistakes, you wont "fix" anything. It will always be someone else's job to do it. aND IF I do try to fix his, then I know we would be heading for a fall, again. It will NOT work that way.
God this is so difficult to explain!!! Please forgive me for spelling, grammar, wrong choices of words and try to fill in the blanks to understand what I am trying to say.
I would make sure if I were you, (I was, still am in many ways) I want this woman in my life. Keen NOT Dbing because it is healthy for you and the kids (not to mention it seems to be working). I sincerely think the separation is not bad for you guys, again according to my experience, and ...soften up a little .
Just my 2 euro cents which is about 5 of your cents anyway... lol K
PS I went to the point to where I almost wasnt vulnerable anymore. And it took a lot of tears and much harder work to get me back to where I wanted to give it a try to save my M again (well, maybe I do, not sure anymore, what day is it? LOL!!) I once said that when I was trying to decide it felt VERY similar to the bomb era. Dont go there, yet!! Please, trust me on this...
Wow, this is a great discussion. I keep struggling with this myself. I have also hardened myself and backed off to the point where I don't get hurt (that much) any more.
I keep looking at my W and seeing the pain she is in, the lost weight, the fact that she can't sleep at night, etc. and wondering to myself "What Now?"
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."
She has this persona she adopts/uses with her friends and co-workers: clever, witty, quick-with-the-quip (stolen from me as often as not!), sassy -- think Myrna Loy in "The Thin Man." Lately she's chuckled about this or that and said, "That reminds me of X." When I look at her as if to say, "What's X?" she'll say, "Oh, didn't I send you that article / clip / link?" And of course the answer is, "No."
But at home, with me, none of that. I didn't discourage it, I didn't tell her to stop it, I didn't ignore her when she would tell me things -- she just had a Marriage Her and a Not-Marriage Her. Then she had a Divorce Her.
Now the Divorce Her has been subordinated, and the M / ~M Hers are back -- and in their familiar ordering. So let's play with a little thought experiment:
Assume that some kind of detente (cf, @Gypsy and the Art of War) is reached after Friday. Assume that some kind of tentative moves "back" (or, more accurately for me I think, towards some other place) are undertaken. At what point does one / ought one / could one expect to see Former WAS undertaking the kind of rigorous self-evaluation and reflection that Former LBS does during the divorce-busting process? That seems, at a minimum, only to be fair to me: sauce for the gander, sauce for the goose. (This assumes -- perhaps wrongly / unfairly -- that Former WAS has not been undergoing some kind of process during the separation, etc., I admit.) Because otherwise this would seem to have the effect simply of shifting the power back to the Former WAS -- gosh I'm glad you came home because all the problems were me.
But that can't be right. Can it?
Wow SP! Right on the money with some of my thoughts recently...
- What if we stay M'd and W doesn't Change?
- What if she never works on her own issues? I'd be miserable in our old M.
- Why are there multiple Mrs Thinkers - one with her friends and another with me?
Last edited by Thinker; 06/23/0901:48 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
- What if she never works on her own issues? I'd be miserable in our old M.
You can't go back to the old marriage. Both of you need to be one the same page for a reconciliation. Greek told me she was "all in." She started reading a lot of the books I read and started reading here once she got over the initial shock.
Quote:
Why are there multiple Mrs Thinkers - one with her friends and another with me?
Are you really her friend right now? She is protecting herself and testing your changes. You are being watched.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Just my 2 euro cents which is about 5 of your cents anyway... lol
Love it! Not to worry about expressing it in English -- heck, I barely speak the language myself. You do fine, and your thoughts come through loud and clear.
So I hear you, for sure. By the same token, I've been thinking like our colleague does, and the @Coach-Greek example to the contrary notwithstanding, I wonder about this notion -- "'this,' the M, can work." It seems clear to me that "this" isn't the same "this" that it was pre-Bomb. So how can one assume the new "this" will work? It seems to me that new rules would have to be negotiated, new understandings reached, etc. Now this is more-or-less the same thing one does in any "new" relationship, so it's not an insurmountable obstacle.
I dont disagree with you but I do feel that when a totally new R happens (i.e. one that is not with your W) the "new rules" of a new R seem to happen in a more organic and natural fashion. IMO (or at least in my experience with my H) that is where the WAS finds it to be too much work because they have not done the work. And in the case of my H who has had a GF for a 1.5 years now, why do the work with your W when you get all the fun with a new person? His experience of his affair and GF really seemed to cement in his mind that R's should not be work. And for nwo his new R is no work. His new R is void of all "real life" things such as bills, planning for the future, family dynamics and all the big life decisions and plans a married couple must make and work through.
Its not a terribly natural feeling to have "guidelines" or "rules" so to speak with a spouse you have been married to for xx years. Especially when the LBS tends to be much further along in the "working on the R and themselves" process than the WAS is.
I also know in my H's case he will not allow himself to fail again. That simply is his nature (not just in R's but his life outlook in general). So I think there are many variables the WAS considers that arent that pressing to the LBS.
But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."
That isnt at all surprising to me. The WAS is unsure how to process this all because all of a sudden the LBS isnt a sobbing mess. It becomes clear to the WAS that the LBS will not only be just fine but maybe better. In order to cope, it is my opinion the WAS must revert back and work extra hard to try and change the dynamic back to the old unhealthy one so they can operate in the forum (unhealthy) in which they are comfortable. That is the exact reason I have trained myself to have ZERO reaction to my H and what he says or does. He expects me to have some sort of emotional reaction which would only allow him to justify his decison to leave the marriage and continue his affair. I am always polite, kind and cordial but I give him nothing more or nothing less. Any emotions I have to deal with that are painful or upsetting to me I deal with on my own or with my C.
I have also found that when anything positive happens between the WAS and the LBS the WAS tends to retreat back to their old ways - again, in an attempt to bring the R back to its old, unhealthy state.
I think, across the board no matter what the particulars of the situation are, there is always some sort of power struggle between the WAS and the LBS. And I dont mean from a legal sense. Some of us never find that balance and some of us do. I can imagine its far more difficult when children are invovled so I cant comment on that aspect. But as far as two spouses are concerned I do believe a very deep power struggle exists. As they say, the one that cares least about the R is the one that controls it. And I dont mean they dont care as if they dont give a sh*t about you or your well being as a person but as a spouse, the WAS needs that power/control in order to forge ahead with their plan. They can forge ahead all they like and rarely think of all the ramifications and consequences but in most cases despite what the LBS may do, their mind is made up.
A WAS doesnt like to be wrong and in order for them not to be wrong I think they carry huge amounts of guilt. While this may sound cold that is their issue to own, process and work through and sadly, most WAS simply do not.
After 1.5 years of separation w/a 3rd party involved my WAS still follows the script to a "T". He is really just a collection of cells that is so consumed with cliches and BS and justifications I just dont let it get to me anymore. Well, once in a while it does but not nearly as often as it used to.
My H LOVES to tell me how happy he is. Well, GREAT! I tend to think that people who have to brag to anybody that will listen how happy they are, well, maybe they are trying to convince themselves. I could be wrong and maybe he is happy. If that is the case then good for him. It is my opinion that you dont have to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate and emotionally abuse somebody to "find happiness" but we are all different.
And maybe in many ways I take a more "manly" stance in this. But I spent close to a year being the wrecked wife who was sick (emotionally and physically) and I am done with that. Forever. If I didnt become tough as nails I would have continued down a path that was nothing short of self destructive. I have flaws and lots to work on but that hardly means I should be treated like dog doo.
The best way to end this power struggle is to simply NOT participate. There were times my tounge was nearly bleeding because I so wanted to say *something* to my H or just lash out but my silence was far more confusing to him.
If you dont want to be in limbo then get the heck out of there. You have that power to leave "the land" or allow your WAS to keep you there. IMO "leaving the land" is best for you and possibly for the fate of your M.
I dont know about you but I am done being jerked around. I had to make that choice for my health but I am glad I did because it was the best thing for my heart/mind. And somebody can only jerk you around if you let them.
This may sound cold. Its not. I wont coddle a WAS any longer though. Its a real kick in the face for the WAS when they realize the LBS will no longer be there for them. Funny how my H is "so happy" with his GF but when it comes to real life things (him needing support, work problems or comfort) I am the first person he calls. So let your W move to her new house and once she realizes that you will only be there in the form of a co-parent, well, things might change (or they might not) but you have to let the WAS experience it all.
I am not jaded to this process. I have been well schooled. At the end of the day I matter to ME. This was not an overnight process, it isnt or anybody. It just seems to me you have so much focus on your W and her actions. You cant control it, you wont figure it out and you may never understand or get the answers you seek. Then what? You sort of stay in square one, no?
I was talking to an old college friend yesterday, herself divorced (in a much worse divorce than mine), and she suggested that one challenge the WAS might face when confronting a productive DB'er is that "as if" and moving forward defies the WAS's expectations and puts the onus of The Work on her/him. In other words, the WAS needs the LBS to be a wreck, because Wreck Behavior has the nice effect of being a distraction AND a source of continual rationalization for the WAS ("Gosh I'm glad to be getting rid of that"). Thoughts?
I think your old college friend is pretty wise.
So at the end of the day, we can self improve and WAS can see it, awknowlege it, but they themselves might not want to do their own work and own their piece of the relationship.
Maybe they would rather have a blank slate or settle for less or, or, just really so many possibilities not really worth wondering about because, its their choice all the same. More power to them. Though certainly it is a refreshing window for the LBS, lets up some of burden.
Last edited by traveldane; 06/23/0903:23 PM.
Me 30 H 33 together:10 years married:5 years Separated: 1/23/09 living apart 5 mos and counting "when you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on"-FDR
) and bla bla bla but after 8 months, I can tell you he has no idea what kind of work is involved to get passed this "phase" of our M (if we survive that is). He ignores basic principles I did too but I dont anymore about relationships. An example, I read and read and still read. He never read anything that could be of use to him/us. He ignores my LL, how can I feel loved when he continues to love me the way HE wants to be loved? Sure enough, I dont. But again, I remind myself he does what he knows, trying to hold on. I recognise his good intention.I DO the work again. Fair? I dont think so. Necessary? If I want this, then yes...
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