Actually, I think it's muy importante that the walkaway begins to view themselves as replaceable. Otherwise ... like they say, if you lie down in front of the door, you shouldn't be surprised when people wipe their feet on you. If they are truly irreplaceable ... well, most humans don't act too well when they are given that kind of power.
The flip side is that while they are replaceable, they aren't *easily* replaceable or interchangeable. Because if they believe that, they can either act with impunity (well, I knew you wouldn't have any trouble finding someone else) or become discouraged and overcome with shame (well, I didn't really think you wanted me that much, especially after all I did).
How much crap must a walkaway already have in their head to do what they're doing? I don't see how a *balanced* expression of their value, not just as a person in general, but to the LBS specifically, could hurt.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Not to be a buzzkill (literally) but do be careful:
"...Sleepwalking, and eating or driving while not fully awake, with memory loss for the event, as well as abnormal behaviors such as being more outgoing or aggressive than normal, confusion, agitation, and hallucinations may occur. Don’t take it with alcohol as it may increase these behaviors..."
Here's what happened to one (file under "more outgoing" and "memory loss" effects)
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Wow. That was an interesting discussion. From my POV I think I've communicated to WAW that, all else being equal, I'd prefer an R with her, at least at the present time.
But there's this 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to really confront, but which we've alluded to up and down in the SP threadlines before. And it's this: "Which" WAW do I prefer an R with? It strikes me as being possible -- for some, perhaps, even probable -- that at the end of the DB road one realizes, "I don't like WAW that much." Or, "I don't like who WAW has become."
So it clearly is a fine line to walk. And I'm walking on the "wrong" side of it -- betting the Don't Pass line at the craps table. I'm doing Tough Love here -- I'm pushing her toward the door harder than she ever thought likely. I absolutely want her to confront it all, and I want her to confront it on my schedule, not hers. Because she'd wait to get comfortable with this or that -- I say bugger that, try it when you're uncomfortable. In the previous thread (I think), @Forrest Gump and I had a testy exchange over power.
When WAS comes to you and says ILYBNILWY, s/he's taking Absolute Power over the sitch. And one of the reasons (IMHO) that LBS freaks and does all that nasty icky stuff we do, is the feeling of utter powerlessness. I felt that way a long time (in relative terms). And then I decided not to. Now I'm wielding the power here and WAW's game is off-kilter.
Bad DB kung-fu? Maybe. I don't care. "Emotional jiu-jitsu," a phrase we encounter in the DB lexicon, implies using the WAS's energy, weight, etc. against them, just like the IRL martial art.
So my POV is this: Okay, fine. You want to walk? Walk! Here, let me pack your bag! Wait, you forgot this! Okay, see ya! By the way -- I'm Teh Awesome! And you'll figure that out pretty quickly. And then it will suck to be you. [And yes, I did actually use those words.]
So, yeah, that's a bit of a silly way to put it, but you get the point. I wasn't exaggerating or putting on some Rambo Courage when I said in a previous thread that I'm open to ALL possibilities. Look, maybe she was right all along! Maybe she ISN'T the one for me.
That's how I'm rolling, anyway.
Does it work? Hell, I don't know. Here's an e-mail exchange WAW and I had today, suitably mashed to preserve anonymity while maintaining the topical integrity of the respective notes. WAW will be red, I will be blue. (Because the Good Guys are always Blue Force! Hooah!)
Dear {Mrs. SP},
I know this isn't a "happy" birthday for you but I'm wishing you a Happy Birthday anyway, because, as you put it, I'm a selfish bastard -- if it weren't for your birthday I wouldn't have known you and I wouldn't have known D and S, and that's some pretty great stuff to know. So Happy Birthday. To You. For Me.
Ever since you dropped the Bomb, you've been harping on this "you never knew me" thing. Maybe you're right. But maybe you never knew me, either. Curious, eh? But that's the past, and I don't live there anymore. Whether I knew you or not in any "real" sense is irrelevant now. We are where we are. But there are a couple things I do know about you -- or at least about what I believe to be you.
I believe you are a good person with a good heart.
I believe you're struggling and sad and conflicted and confused and confounded and confronted and dizzy and lonely and scared and committed and determined and anticipating -- and and and.
And I believe that you can come to me -- if you want -- for support, for friendship, for whatever it is you need me to provide. I know that idea sort of freaks you out. But that's because you're not listening to your heart (and I don't mean that in the Hallmark way) and are listening to that conflicted, sad, struggling brain of yours. Which brain, by the way, is dead wrong. You won't be taking advantage of me, you won't be giving me the wrong impression. You're divorcing me -- how much more of an impression do I need?
And I've heard you say you're afraid of being vulnerable. Nahhhh -- you've got a great self-protection fortress there. Not just one wall -- plenty of walls. So you can open the outer gate, and I'll meet you half-way, parlez. Truce. Christmas in the trenches.
No Hidden Agenda. No Expectations. No field of daisies, slow-motion running, and Vangelis soundtrack.
It'll just be me coming through the gate, just to give you a smile, or just to listen, or just to share with you what I believe.
Let me remind you -- I believe you are a good person with a good heart.
Oh, and I believe in you. It's been a long road -- nearly 22 years -- and there's a lot of road ahead. But today is for today. And today is your birthday. So Happy Birthday.
WAW replied:
I'm sure you know that was the nicest birthday card I have ever received. You're right -- I am feeling all of those things to be sure. I wish you were right about the other stuff, though. I used to think I was a "good person" and that I had a "good heart" but now I just don't believe it. How can I in light of what I have done to you and our children?
If you'd be interested in exploring this, once I move I hope we can spend some time together and start over. I don't know where it will lead, but I would sure like for us to get to know each other again. I really want you to have a place in my life that is bigger than just my kids' Dad.
I can live with that. Bad DB kung-fu or not.
Oh and @Sara? You've identified the major weakness in my mojo. That one -- that "just take her and do the deed" one? Struggling with it.
Oh and @Sara? You've identified the major weakness in my mojo. That one -- that "just take her and do the deed" one? Struggling with it.
It depends on where you see the line. Is it a six foot fence? A two foot fence? A line in sand? If you can bring the line down to the ground, then you just reach your hand out and touch her. The rest just follows. But you can't reach through a high fence. Damn, man! Any other man talking to a woman as vulnerable as your wife was there would have had sex with her. And she would have welcomed it. But the tone of the letter says she is still vulnerable. Maybe it is better to wait, and do it at the new house.
Yeah, it's not so much about the line as it is the vulnerable.
This will sound totally weird, and I don't mean to misappropriate a very serious word, but the "just take her" thing in the context of not being "really" intimate -- trusting friends, lovers kind of thing? -- seems sort of, well, date-rape-y to me. Taking advantage of. That doesn't come out right, but no other words come to mind at the moment.
At the risk of fueling gender stereo types, I'm wondering if this approach would strike the right sentiments and invoke the response it seems to be with your wife, if the scenario were reversed ? Obviously we are talking here about two specific individuals and a specific marriage, not just dynamics between a man, and a woman, not trying to reduce it to just that, really.
But, IMHO, it almost seems like within the unconditional love you are offering, you are also doing a bit of that confident man, sweetheart i've got you figured out but am so self aware that I welcome you to take the space to figure it out for yourself type of thing. And, ps. I already love you for who you are. I'm that good. Don't feel cold in the shadow of my superhuman emotional awareness. You'll get there and if you'd like to meet me on the other side, you might be that lucky.
Don't get me wrong, its fantastic. And, it seems to be working. But, if you are not carefull, she might begin to resent it a bit that you seem to understand things about her that she might not understand yet herself. I don't think it sounds like she does...in fact, email above clearly states that you are right on and she is appreciating/responding to that.
Because she is a woman and, while I am the last one who likes to admit it, we do like to be taken care of to some degree. And have our emotions affirmed. But its a fine line between that and feeling parented.
And, getting back to my origional question, in my experience (not just my own sitch but beyond) men often, not always, but often do not respond as well to having their feelings identified and affirmed...at least not initially. Validation goes a long way, miles, but empathy before they themselves have digested what they are feeling and are ready to announce the place they are in is not appreciated. You have to tread very lightly, a line so fine between understaning where they are coming from but not taking any action or even saying so...comes off as feminie patronizing.
Why does it seem less that way in the reverse? Or maybe it doesn't. Maybe just as many women balk at this. Maybe it is all just based on the individual. Anyway, if your wife were not responding to this, if she was like, thanks for being so concerned with how I feel but I'll figure myself out thank you very much and I really don't want you around while I do it, what would be your next step?
Last edited by traveldane; 06/17/0902:06 AM.
Me 30 H 33 together:10 years married:5 years Separated: 1/23/09 living apart 5 mos and counting "when you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on"-FDR
But that's the exact opposite of the way I see it. The revealing of the vulnerability is intimate. Your answers to her are intimate. What is not intimate and loving about this scene? To me, it is the absence of the culminating act. To my mind, there is no higher compliment than when I see my husband across the room pointing at me with....you know what. Sex is loving. Or at least it should be.
