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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1479448
06/13/08 01:54 AM
06/13/08 01:54 AM
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In response to this post

Smartcookie- Look inside one wife , who's trying not to walk

I think this should be required reading for LBS.
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Hi Smartcookie,
I have been reading your posts for a while now & FG's responses to you and then yours back. It has been entertaining to see the interaction between the two of you, read the wisdom from both sides and the insights gained by me in doing so.

I have wept reading your story as yours could be mine, except I walked away. I thought, finally someone on these boards that understands what it means to be in my shoes and this post sums it up for me totally.

Thank you for your articulation of WAW's POV. I agree this should be a sticky for those LBS to read when trying to 180 and LRT and GAL and every other DB technique they read about here. They need to DB with this perspective in mind.

From one WAW to another almost WAW, thank you again for your words & insight into 'us'.

Peace to you.


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1479453
06/13/08 02:00 AM
06/13/08 02:00 AM
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the next posts are between a LBS Lodo & myself. I'm going to add his into these so they make sense to the reader as I refer to questions he asks in my response. Hope that is ok Lodo? If not I'll go back & edit out.

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Hi Lodo,
Thanks for the kind words. I wish it was so easy with my H & me. But if it was I guess I would not be here now would I?

I remember reading another WAS's postings I think it was smartcookie and crying (& until lately, I have not been a cryer)because she so wonderfully articulated my feelings & thoughts in a way that I wish my H could hear how it was & still sometimes is to me.

I guess we get different things from different people's postings. Some of yours give me hope that people can see their role in the breakdown of the marriage and truly take responsibility for their part of the separation by making changes that are true to their values & beliefs.

I keep wondering though, even when LBS & WAW finally talk it all out, give it (the new "R") more chances... is there such a thing as incompatability.. or does the DB philosophy believe that once compatible (that's why you got married right?) always compatible?

Can I love him as a person, be his friend, and still not find enough things in common for values, recreation, intellectual pursuits, work habits, parenting, money matters, etc. for it to 'work' as a life-partner?

I remember my IC asking at one time.. if you were sitting across the table from him over dinner, would he be someone you'd want to have ask you out for a 2nd date? And my immediate and intense reactions was 'hell, no', I'm not even sure why I'd be on the first one.

Has he changed, yes he most definately has changed. Do I believe the changes are for him... some of them, yes. Others, no. I see him saying.. look at what I did or what I am, and then as you so clearly put in another post, gawking at me to see if I noticed.

uggg.. maybe I should start my own thread. I am finding my self getting long winded about my sitch are here a lot.

Thanks for listening.

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Hi Bridgestone,

I've been affected by smartcookie as well.

I keep wondering the same thing about WAW & LBS. In my particular sitch, my W is determined to get D - I'm a "wonderful person and we connect on many levels" but she doesn't think she can be the person for me. What does that mean? That she's changed. That marriage for her is different than what she thinks it is for me.

A long-term relationship is a compromise and I don't think we truly appreciate what that means. It's really hard. It's accepting someone for who they are and knowing that there are things you'll never like in them. Are those things big enough to throw the whole thing away? I think my W is currently saying "yes," but will those things still seem so huge when she starts trying with someone else? Only time will tell. My W and I are basically compatible, we have a solid friendship, and we communicate well. She asked me if that was enough to sustain a relationship. I think yes, she thinks no. What would you say? It's hard for me to see basing a long-term R on anything else and I don't see Rs as being self-sustaining. I think my W thinks they need to be more self-sustaining - those things in common should just come naturally. I think you have to work at involving each other. Both of you. Working hard.

Parts of people who are compatible will always be compatible, I think, and parts won't be. You can concentrate and work on the parts that are compatible, or decide too much has changed. I commend you for concentrating on the parts that work. You have to do that to figure it out. I wish my W was willing to do the same.

And the gawking, yes, us guys are really good at that. We aren't so good at being subtle, so when something is bothering us we want to change it as fast as possible. I recognize that changes I made 4 months ago have slid away, so I guess you're smart to be wary. But I'm glad that, unlike my W, you continue to engage him and give feedback about his changes. One question I have, though, is if the burden of proof should all be on him. Relationships take two, so are there changes you should be making to be more accepting of who he is? Would transcending the present turmoil and reaching a place of comfort that will never be as exciting as new love - is that worth the compromise?

I guess I'm divided about all of this. I tried going dark to move on but emailed W yesterday. I am who I am - a nice person who can't play games and I miss her. I miss her conversation and deep down I know she misses mine even though she's trying hard to put it out of her mind and heart.

Have I done enough to show her someone who "gets it"? Obviously not. Should I keep trying? I don't know. I'd decided there was nothing more I could do and I deserve someone who would be there for me as much as I've been there for them (my W has always been focused on her self & career), so was ready to move on. Then I re-read various posts and DR about truly being patient, knowing when you have no more to give, etc. and have been going back and forth. Should I be friends with W or go dark to separate emotionally? Should I keep trying with blind determination or move on? Of course my sitch has the added complication of OM and I don't know how big that wrench is, but I see similar things in your postings that address my inner struggles. Is this how you feel as well? grasshopper posted that the LBS can be as much a WAS as the WAS - I guess that has stuck with me these last few weeks but I don't know what to do with the info.

Sorry for the rambling. Hope you have a great day!

lodo


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1479455
06/13/08 02:02 AM
06/13/08 02:02 AM
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almost done (for now \:\)
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Hi Lodo
I'm listening, but a bit distracted today as my major professor needs for a summer class are pressing, the weather here is a major concern, and I have two hour drive each way today to get to campus to deal with the summer class issues.

I'll re-read this right before I leave and then ponder your thoughts & questions on my drive. I'll check in later tonight.

Right now I can tell you that you & my H have said the same thing about how the R could be enough... best friends with sex is how he defines what is enough for him to be in a marriage relationship. Is that what I'm hearing you say is enough for you?

I don't agree with that. Maybe women & men define best friends differently, I don't know about that. I need to think about that and your question about being more accepting of who he is.

Have a good day.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Hey bridgestone,

what are you studying? I'm working on a master's and have to do the summer school thing too.

I didn't mean to indicate that best friends with sex is enough. I think the best friends part is what carries you through those periods of losing other connections and hopefully sustains you while you start reconnecting in other ways. But those reconnections are vital. How they happen is tricky, though, and I guess that's where I was heading.

For instance, my W was annoyed because I stopped being enthusiastic about going to parties. But the parties she always wanted to go to were with her colleagues who only talk about their work. I tend to be somewhat shy at first in social settings, so had a hard time mixing and she'd never stay with me and help me mingle. So it wasn't enjoyable for me. I liked the people, though, and enjoy going to parties.

So how to reconnect on doing things socially in that situation? Both of us would have to give something because it won't happen naturally - I'm not in her field and she doesn't have my shyness. But if we made an effort to understand what each other needed and then tried to meet those needs, it'd work.

So not sure if that's a good example of what I was thinking or not, but no, best friends with sex isn't enough. You need to meet each others needs. But I don't think that comes naturally - I think you need to work on it and communicate with each other about what those needs are, how they can be met, and how far you're willing to compromise so that the other can realistically meet them.

lodo

PS - one other question. In my sitch, I'm in a master's program and W reinstated into a PhD program. So times were pretty intense at our house. 9 years ago she started a master's and broke up with me 3 months later saying she didn't think we had enough in common. Last fall, 3 months after starting her PhD, she moved out saying we didn't have enough in common. Since you're in school yourself, how much do you think the new experiences and pressures of school add to the dissatisfaction at home?


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

http://tinyurl.com/ybqkan8 = Current Thread

Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1479458
06/13/08 02:04 AM
06/13/08 02:04 AM
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last one

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hi,
thanks for explaining a bit more what you meant.

I agree that compromise is important. communication is vital about those needs & how important those needs are, is it a 10? or a 2? on a scale of 1-10.

H & I are very different about what are our MC called our absolutes. That became abundantly clear in counseling. We never made it to the compromise part or even understanding of mine, for various reasons.

I am in a PhD program for the past 7 years and yes it added pressures that played many roles directly and indirectly in our splitting.

Misunderstandings of what I needed for support when trying to complete dissertation resesarch with a full-time job, 2 teen-agers, a 2 hour commute, a spouse with an 80 hour a week job, and a major professor who is certifiably nuts became rampant in the relationship and his anger intensified because I was not meeting his needs the way I used to. I changed the rules of the game, he did not like the realities of what he agreed to do when I went back to school.

I will now lose my job because I did not finish my PhD in time to keep it. It needed to be done by this August, it will be done by December. There is much bitterness over that.

There are not many jobs in my area that can use people with my experience & education level. Moving to where those jobs are means moving my D. away from her Dad or me away from her. I'm not ready to make that choice yet.

As a plaque above my kitchen sink says.. it is what it is.

-----
Oh bridgestone. I've gotta tell you how much your post hurts. In so many different ways. I'm supposed to be preparing for a presentation tonight, but had to stop and respond to this.

Communication? On a scale of 1-10, communicating needs is 10, but I think we're guilty of always letting it slide. Saying "I won't rock the boat over it this time", but those times build up and then it's too late. The saying "never go to bed angry" is pretty much the truth - I'd rather stay up all night and figure out the compromise then let it build up.

Your absolutes? Not sure what that might be - can you give an example? If your husband never understood yours, is he trying to now? If so, is he doing a good job or a crappy job?

Your description of the program is what tore me apart. I work at a university and see so many of these situations play out. You'd think I would've appreciated my own, but no.

My W tends to retreat when she gets busy, and rather than offer her support, I took offense. I didn't understand what the experience was like and I bet your husband didn't either. Even if he'd done his own PhD, it's different when you're in the experience.

And I'm sorry, but how the hell do you work on a PhD with a full-time job, 2 teenagers, a 2 hour commute, and a spouse who's never there?! That is craziness! My god, what have you been going through? And how have you survived?! With prof on top of everything you must have felt cornered and crushed at the same time.

So I have to admit that 9 years ago I wasn't supportive when my W changed the rules of the game after starting school. I didn't support her. And I suppose I didn't support her when she started her PhD, though I thought I was just giving her space. And I was pursuing my own grad degree work and thought she understood I needed support/understanding too. Anyway, that was the final straw. She slept with OM a month later. The kicker is that he is a major part of her thesis and if she wants to pursue the narrow field she's in, she'll be encountering him for the foreseeable future - my demand that she never contact him again fell on deaf ears since it threatened her career.

Is losing your job a for sure thing? We've had many students in the same position, but most of them have been able to work out a deal. If not, yes - you should feel bitter and I'd say you're justified. So then what happens?

You don't need to make the choice about moving yet, but I think you should eventually make the move. I've lived in a small community where the quality of life was high but job options were low and it drove me crazy after 10 years. Now I'm in a place where there are great job options and I can make enough to travel. Much better. I have friends, though, who are doing the opposite. So far they've made it work, but I can see the strain starting to accumulate.

Thanks for responding. I must say it is always nice to come across one of your posts. Take care, lodo


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1479594
06/13/08 05:17 AM
06/13/08 05:17 AM
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lol - you're going to lock your own thread before anyone else gets a chance to post!

Welcome to your own thread - I just got out of class & am hoping you're sleeping well and there are no storms rolling through.

lodo


Divorced: 10/26/08
Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: lodo] #1480019
06/13/08 04:47 PM
06/13/08 04:47 PM
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Hi,
Finally a beautiful day here with sunshine, not rain clouds. I am headed out this afternoon with a GF to check out the flood damage.

I am feeling badly today as I was in a foul mood yesterday and said some hurtful things to H. I need to apologize for them, something I am terrible at.

I know this goes back to family of origin issues.

Logically understading my actions (or in this case inaction), does nothing (or very little) to stop the flood of negative emotions associated with shame and low-self esteem when I apologize & admit my actions were wrong.

I know what I would like for him to do when I apologize, things I think, would make it easier for me to ask for forgiveness in the future.

but based on past experiences with him when I open up & share, become vulnerable,it frequently comes back to bite me in the a$$.

He uses my shared desires, needs, feelings in a fight.. making fun of them, linking them to other failures, etc.

So I anticipate that if I share what I need from him when I apologize, he will use it against me at a later date. This freezes me, keeps me from sharing, being emotionally connected with him. And neither of us gets what we need.

ugg..


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1480047
06/13/08 05:03 PM
06/13/08 05:03 PM
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hi bridgestone,

Being with someone means snapping at them when you're in a foul mood and they need to understand that. That said, you should apologize, as much for yourself as for them.

But why can't you say what you're afraid of and what you'd like to hear when you apologize? "H, I overreacted yesterday because I was in a foul mood and distracted with other things. Please don't take what I said personally. I feel bad because this happened at a time when things are fragile between us, but it also scares me to apologize like this since I feel you haven't appreciated my vulnerability in doing so in the past. What would really help me would be if you responded in this manner, but I also need to understand how you're feeling right now. Can you tell me?"

I mean, that's off the top of my head and it's definitely headed down R-talk lane. It's vital to not have every single interaction be about R, but just be some relaxing, connecting times. But do you think that approach might work?

lodo


Divorced: 10/26/08
Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: lodo] #1480078
06/13/08 05:23 PM
06/13/08 05:23 PM
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hi Lodo
I can do that. I can apologize I can even articulate what I need him to do when I do apologize.

I'm sure i would get forgiveness & even what I am looking for. TODAY.

However, I am scared, based on his past actions, even as recently as a week ago, that things shared with him that mean alot to me are ridiculed, put down, tied to other things that they are not meant to be tied to in an effort to deliberately (his word choice here) be mean & hurtful to me.

I think I am giving him ammunition to fire back at me in a fight later. Why would I do that? Being careful with shared intimacies does not mean being careful with them just in the moment they are shared. It means continuing to care for them at the moment you want to fling them against the wall.

That is what has been lacking from him. As a result, the things I do share are shattered, and I keep from sharing new ones. Not sure how to break this cycle.


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: Bridgestone] #1480101
06/13/08 05:35 PM
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Yep - it sucks to be vulnerable. To trust someone. I'd be scared too.

But that's communicating needs. Asking for what you want. So, what can you do about it? How can you make him understand?


Divorced: 10/26/08
Re: Guilty as charged.. I am a WAW. [Re: lodo] #1480253
06/13/08 07:02 PM
06/13/08 07:02 PM
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Good question..
How can I "make" him understand?


When I ask him for this and he is in, what he calls, his 'good place'. I get sweet, caring, gentle postive affirmation for my needs being met. That gives me hope.

In the middle of an argument it is difficult.

If I call him on it, doing what he promised he wouldn't do, it is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

I know now, after talking with him about his reaction (gasoline on a fire) is that it is about him being angry with himself for letting me down, for failing to do as he said he would.

But the anger ends up directed at me, not at him.

Just thinking about it is enough for me to want to throw up my hands and say I give up.

However,
I did call him over lunch and apologize. I told him I had more to say and an empathetic request to make of him when I apologize in the future.

He accepted my apology and said he would like to hear what that was. He was distant, cool & did not apologize for any of his words or actions. That stings, I guess I can not make him to that any more than I can make him understand.


I told him I wanted to do this face-to-face and that it needed more time than the 3 minutes he had before he needed to go rushing back to work.

We are to go together to a friends birthday party tonight. I'm still on eggshells and feeling protective of 'me' since our argument yesterday.

I hope I can keep that 'edginess' from showing tonight. I want to have a good time... there's been too much loss & grief lately around here, recently & over time not to.


Divorced 03/2010
Mom to two amazing kids

Taking the road less traveled because those encountered on the way may be just as unique.

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