Dialoguing is a written conversation technique that is taught at Retrouvaille weekends (www.helpourmarriage.org). Each spouse has a notebook. You decide on a question together. It is usually phrased, "How do I feel about ________?" Both spouses take 10 or 15 minutes to answer the question in their notebook. You are taught at the weekend what kinds of things to say, that is, to talk only about yourself, talk about feelings, not thoughts or beliefs, and lots of other ground rules of writing. Then you exchange notebooks and read what the other has written. You read it twice -- once with your head and once with your heart. And then each spouse takes turns asking the other questions about their feelings. Again, you are taught how to ask questions to elicit feelings, not thoughts.
Dialoguing is a tool that brings couples closer together because they get to understand how the other feels about things without arguing. If you understand how the other feels, and if you care about that person, then you will do things to add to their good feelings and not hurt them.
Retrouvaille is a wonderful program of self-help taught by other couples who have been there, been through the misery of an unhappy marriage, but have healed their marriages. They show you how they did it. Then it is up to you and your spouse to follow the path they show you. Dialoguing is something they suggest you do daily. HFF and his wife has been to Retrouvaille, so they know how to do this, but they have slacked off.
I don't know your circumstances Marcum. It is for couples that are both willing to go to the weekend with an open mind and a willing heart. (Uusally, one partner is much more willing than the other). If you and your wife want to improve your communication, then this program is for you. I can tell you it saved my marriage and changed us as people. We are both less self-centered and just nicer to each other than were before. All married people should learn what they teach at Retrouvaille weekends.
All of these posts sound all too familiar. My sitch is much like CW68's. In that we are "separated" living in the same house, have dinner & kid time together, and looking for alt. housing for us to share. Same whomever is w/kids stays at the house. W still unhappy w/this as she wants to feel like she has her own space. Likes being a Mom, but we have been so disconnected for so long that she sees me as a stranger. I have been withdawn and not so open w/my communications w/her for a long time, but am activly working on that. (depression issues w/me too.working on that too) I am more than willing to take resp. for my parts in this, but she does not do that for her part. I like the notion of the marriage sabbatical, but she is already starting to date a new guy...which I technically don't know about ;-) (I'm not an idiot & snooped a bit) I am pretty sure she rather get a D but since we have kids, I think she is going thru the motions of a separation for now.
ME 33 W 37 Together 8 M: 5+ disconnected: 5 D: 2 D: 3
There are different approaches. I did it right after the worst fight we ever had, when we both knew we were unable to help ourselves, and I just quietly said, "There's a marital retreat I've heard about that's supposed to help people like us. I think we should go." And he agreed, so I booked it. Others have had a lot more trouble getting agreement. Pointing out that the children deserve for their parents to really make an effort to keep the family together is a good reason. Some people make it part of a bargain -- you do this thing that I want, and I'll do something else that you want. Sometimes asking the partner to do it for you, so you can have closure, or so you can feel that you two have tried everything, works. And since the workshop focuses on communication, not marriage counseling, many people just suggest going to improve communication, whether you continue on the path to divorce or not.
Retrouvaille usually discourages couples with one spouse in an active affair from coming. This is not a hard and fast rule. But their space is limited, and they know that couples with no outside partners have a better chance of reconciling. The only thing they ask of both partners is that you come "with an open mind and a willing heart."
Marcum, Sara makes some great points. It really depends on where you are with the relationship and how you interact. In my case, W was still involved with OG when I made the request. We had both been to lawyers and W wanted to go to a mediator to do the D. I was hesitant on the mediator, but I told her that I would agree to that if she would go to the weekend. We also talked about the using the weekend to improve communication regardless of whether we stayed together and also I wanted to be able to say that we had tried everything before giving up.
The timing worked out such that the A ended about three weeks prior to the weekend. We went into the program very skeptical about the outcome, but it really made a huge difference and we made a lot of progress. It obviously did not solve all of our issues, but I do believe it was well worth the time involved.
So this was my first full week of W being out of the house, and it was....
Really good! Certainly missed the kids, but I kept quite busy. Fortunately, my sister and her husband just opened their restaurant, so I have a place to go. I was out everynight with friends, had a great time and met some new people. I'm probably going to sound like an alcoholic here, but I already know the bartenders at the restaurant by name. It's just that I've been sitting and eating at the bar when I've been there, not drowning my sorrows with alcohol. It's easier to talk to people at the bar and has been fun.
Yesterday, I did something new. I went kayaking with friends of mine on the Deleware. It was a beautiful day and lots of fun.
Kids were back with me last night. It was nice to be able to tuck them into bed again.
It's been a couple of weeks since I last posted, so I thought I would update. Things are going well. Not so much with the relationship, but with me. Been keeping busy both on my weeks with the kids and my weeks off. The weeks with the kids are generally hectic. Need to get them from school, then off to one activity or another. Back home for dinner, then homework and bed.
Just a little set up before I journal on the events this weekend...
W moved out on 4/19. In the weeks leading up her moving out, our discussions relating to the separation and how it related to our relationship were very positive. We talked about it being time to reflect more on ourselves, but would also give us a chance to date each other and get to know each other again. We talked about having movie nights together and she suggested several times that I might need to get a babysitter once in awhile and sneak over to her apartment for an occasional rendezvous. Sure sounded very positive to me going into it. Kicker is that she also suggested that I should go out and date other people so that I could be sure about my feelings for her. That I would find out if I really want her back.
The reality is that she has become more and more distant in the past couple of weeks. There were kisses and hugs when she first moved out, but that stopped pretty quickly. She never calls me for any reason other than to discuss issues about the kids or money, and when she talks to the kids on the phone, she rarely asks to talk to me afterwards.
So this weekend... I know I'll get bunches of criticism here, but I took my W's suggestion and set up a 'date' this past Saturday to go to a wine festival with a woman I had met last year when we were on the verge of divorce. I invited her to the festival as well as another guy friend of mine. The day was very nice. Weather was great and we had fun hanging out and drinking wine. We started talking to another couple there and spent the rest of the day with them. We ended the night by going to my sister's restaurant for dinner. Good day all around and I really enjoyed myself.
Normally on Sunday evenings, we do a family dinner with the in-laws and we had discussed that this would be a good location for us to switch the kids. The past couple of weeks, I didn't go for one reason or another. She called me early in the day to find out if I planned on going there to get the kids or if she should drop them off with me on her way home. I called and told her that I would be there to get the kids. This was the first Sunday since her moving out that I would be eating there and I was filled with apprehension on my drive there. I was thinking that the evening would be very awkward and uncomfortable. When I got there, I was relieved that I was warmly welcomed as I always am. W and I spoke quite a bit before dinner and everything seemed great.
After dinner, W and I were left alone at the table and she asked me how the wine festival was. I hadn't told her that I had gone (she hadn't asked either), so I was a bit surprised that she knew. She explained that she had seen a flier at the house when I was out. She asked who I went with and I told her the events of the day. I also mentioned where we had gone to dinner. She commented that she still hadn't been to the restaurant and then mentioned that she probably wouldn't be welcome there. I replied that under the circumstances that my sister probably wouldn't receive her very well at which W got visibly upset and left the table. She went outside to put the kid's bags into my car. I followed her outside and we talked some. She was mad about this 'double standard'. That it is perfectly acceptable for me to bring a girlfriend to my sister's restaurant, but W can't go there. That her family accepts me, but my family does not accept her. She said I can come to family dinner and look like the 'hero'. Her family still loves me and it is not fair to her. Her brother talks to me like a friend, but criticizes her for her actions. She is trying to do the right thing, but she can't win. She still looks like the bad guy even though she is trying to do things the right way.
She even mentioned that my family has never really accepted and loved her. I was thinking about this on the way into work and think she's way off base here. My family always loved and accepted her. I think there is a bit of revisionist history going on. W is the god-mother of my niece for crying out loud. Is that not acceptance of her? We are identified in wills as guardians of several of my nieces / nephews. Does this not show love and trust?? I do have more of a connection with her family primarily because there has been more contact there. Two of my sisters live out of state, so we don't see them very often. Unfortunately, under the recent circumstances, my W has fallen from the good graces. Is this not to be expected? Is there some reason given the circumstances that I should not have contact with her family?
We kept talking and I mentioned that since she moved out, she has gotten more and more distant. That what had originally sounded like a positive arrangement was no longer a time to work on us. I told her that I was okay living alone. That I was having fun on my weeks off that that I was doing okay by myself with the kids. She also told me that she was okay living alone and enjoying it. I said that was good. That we should be able to be happy on our own as individuals. She countered that point and said something about one day wanting be that 80 year old couple that after one of them passes, the other passes shortly after because they can't live without their spouse. I told her that I thought it was unhealthy to be so connected to you spouse that you can't live without them and brought up codependency. She seemed to scoff at this. She seems to be back at needing the fairy tale, over the top romantic definition of love. She seems to think that since we are okay living apart, that this validates her belief that we don't belong together. When she first moved out, many people asked if she was getting back together with the OG. I adamantly denied this and truly believed that she wouldn't do that again, but this belief is quickly wavering. I have seen nothing concrete to prove this, but her actions towards me are reminiscent of what they were in the middle of the A. Her interactions and dialog with me are limited. Her patience with me is limited. She has no desire to do things with or be with me.
This is so painful to watch HFF. Things were going so well for you and then another bomb. I don't understand your wife's belief that socially unacceptable behavior should be equally accepted with socially acceptable behavior. It is not that she is an in-law that you think your sister would not be happy to see her with a date, but because she is the instigator of your separation and the disintegration of your marriage. But it is still what you think. You could be wrong. Other people will greet her as they choose to. I wouldn't speculate on what others will do or say. Life is not scripted by either you or her.
Yes, she seems to cling to unrealistic fantasies. Why on earth would you be inseparable in your 80's when you are so easily separable now. Chances aren't good. Maybe she thinks you believe fantasies, and if she keeps feeding them to you, you won't even notice reality. She reminds of GH31's wife. You hold still and wait for me, I'll be back when I'm 79.
I am sorry to hear things aren't more positive for the relationship! I don't think we ever stop clinging to hope, but rather we change what we hope for! I am sorry, I remembering posting to you before she left and she was on the forum. Romantic, fairy tale love is not true love, it is excitement. Love is not true love, it is caring and concern. True love is appreciating differences, mistakes, good times and bad times. True love is for the receiver not the giver.
Unfortunately, too many of us don't remember or did not ever know what love is. True love is a decision, not a feeling! Sadly many do not fully understand the difference. Move forward, and trust that it will work out for the best for everyone!
Married:10 years D final 8/28/08 10 minutes is all it took Life goes on and DB was no small part in growing from the Divorce!
This is so painful to watch HFF. Things were going so well for you and then another bomb. I don't understand your wife's belief that socially unacceptable behavior should be equally accepted with socially acceptable behavior. It is not that she is an in-law that you think your sister would not be happy to see her with a date, but because she is the instigator of your separation and the disintegration of your marriage. But it is still what you think. You could be wrong. Other people will greet her as they choose to. I wouldn't speculate on what others will do or say. Life is not scripted by either you or her.
Perhaps unfortunately, I've told my sister quite of bit of the situation. My S at this point is fed up with situation and doesn't want to see me hurt anymore. I think that I have told her too much at this point, which unfortunately makes it difficult for her to accept W back we were work things out. Live an learn.
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Yes, she seems to cling to unrealistic fantasies. Why on earth would you be inseparable in your 80's when you are so easily separable now. Chances aren't good.
That's her point. It sounds like she wants the type of relationship where her heart would be empty if her love were to disappear. Because she and I are both getting along okay, this in itself seems to be justification for no staying together. She has told me over and over that it isn't the fairy tale love that she is looking for, but her actions don't match.
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Maybe she thinks you believe fantasies, and if she keeps feeding them to you, you won't even notice reality. She reminds of GH31's wife. You hold still and wait for me, I'll be back when I'm 79.
I heard something similar from her a while back. A year of separation is a blip in time compared to our overall relationship. If we are meant to be, we will find ourselves back together again.
Sorry, but I don't believe in putting all of my eggs in a basket of chance. I like to believe that I control my own destiny. Yes there is a bit of luck and chance involved, but why sit back and wait for something to happen? I've seen much better results when I take an active approach.
