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SuperDave:

At least according to what I have read. Practice makes perfect with women. The more they get in touch with their bodies, the more they will want sex.

#271241 04/12/04 03:58 AM
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Hey. I been dealing with a nasty little spy-ware called sandboxer. It keeps me off my own computer and I think it's in the broadband line. Plus, I'm back to work and we are in deep financial dodo. CeMar, you didn't tell your wife the "corpse" thought did you? I'm still crying over my H calling me a mummifed corpse when refering to our love making because I don't make a enough noise in bed. I know the lack of noise on my part dates back to my first H and his "teasing" me at a party in front of all our friends about how much noise I made back then. Then the children started invading and I "learned" to be quietier. Plus, he has a script I must follow if I want to prove I am having fun. I just don't think of sex in same terms he does. I am willing to unlearn the quiet but he doesn't have time to teach what I should already know.

I think ordinary men feel that you should get it, get over it or fix it and leave them alone. I think average men feel that if they have to change their approach that it is not worth it. I don't mean average and ordinary like a put down I maen it like that's the way you have always been and your Dad was the same way and Mom never complained and I thought you said being married would be fun kinda immature whine. Maybe that's why we "all of us HD and LD" have to learn to put our feelings aside and learn a new and better way of communicating. Even if it means, doing things way different than our parents did.

Please don't say the mean things. I'll be up crying all night over someone else and my H will use it as proof that I care more about other people than I do him.

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Whatwillbe,
I'm sorry to read about how your husband hurt you. It must be very difficult to open up and trust somebody who acts as though he cares very little about your feelings.

Cemar,
I don't think it's a good idea to generalize about women and sex. My vulnerability comes mostly from being molested once or twice when I was a very young child combined with my upbringing.

My husband and I have talked a lot this weekend, and he says that he did sometimes feel rejected by me. On the other hand, he wouldn't call that feeling of being rejected a "crushing blow" to his self-respect or a feeling of being "destroyed bit by bit". He's self-confident and successful; and he knows about my issues from childhood and even has some of his own. In fact, his reply to my apologies was to tell me not to worry about it, that it's all water under the bridge, and to bring me roses.

There is a disparity in our sexual desire with him desiring it more often than I did. When we do make love, it's usually quite good for both of us; and he knows that he can ask for almost anything (manual, oral, intercourse, combinations, different positions) and get it.

Also, perhaps I'm different from most women, but I suspect that I'm not in that I'm finding that my desire for my husband increases as the amount of physical intimacy with him increases. That does not, however, translate into more orgasms with him or even the desire for more intercourse. It simply means that I want to be intimate with him, to touch him, to be touched by him, etc. Dr. Harley in his book, His Needs, Her Needs, explains to men that their wives often don't need or want to climax. I'm sure some women do, but I often don't because it takes too much of my focus and attention. My husband knows that he can bring me to orgasm if that's what I want, but he knows that often I don't want that, that it's often more relaxing and fulfilling for me to concentrate on pleasing him or to concentrate on other senses (touch, taste, smell, etc.) while we're making love.


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers

To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken.
C. S. Lewis

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Michlynn: I'm sitting here wondering how I could get your thoughts/philosophy into my W's head. First, I want to congratulate you on being motivated, and on finding your desire again. High FIVE! Second, I was thinking that the "vulnerable" thing may be what is going on with my W. She is fiercely independent and I think that sometimes she sees sex as letting me get TOO close to her, invading her private world. She's never been a very vocal lover, which is fine (but different than my past experiences), but maybe that's because she's afraid to "let go" with me. So now, she comes up with all these excuses, reasons, etc. to NOT ML with me, so she never has to feel vulnerable.

Just rambling...but very interested (as CeMar is), in finding out more details on your vulnerability ... how you dealt with it early in the R when we are all lusting after our partners; how you started feeling vulnerable with your H; what made you decide to change.

Hairdog, whose anti-depressants haven't kicked in this morning.

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michlynn:

My wife is more ND, I think maybe you were slightly LD. My wife has told me that if she never has sex again that would be ok with her, it's just not that big a deal for her. She is "Willing" to meet my need for sex, and that is flat out not good enough. She grew up in a rotten home, no father around, and no mother around most of the time after she turned 9. From the age of 9 on, she pretty much raised all the other children in her family. I believe that she was sexaully assualted by one of the mothers boyfriends. She definitely was neglected for most of her childhood. When I married her though she was HD, we made love everyday. As soon as the first kid was born after 2 years, the sex drive dropped offsteadily and hass never returned, which is what I have been hoping for. That plus some physical problems and it seems like my wife has EVERY excuse possible to be LD/ND.

As far as being different then most women, michlynn, I think that you and your husband are lucky in that you are in the good 50% of the female population, the ones that actually like sex. My wife is in the other 50% of women, the ones that have no real desire for sex, the ones that are making their husbands lives a living h#ll. There is nothing worse then to live with someone that does not DESIRE you. I am glad to see that you and the hubby are working out your issues, he is a VERY lucky man indeed.

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Hairdog,
I've been thinking about what you said and am still trying to figure out what's going on with me. I may not be on this board much today since I'm trying to finish up my parents' tax return and then will have to work on my husband's and mine, which is going to be a pain this year, since we have several entries on the dreaded Form 4797 this year.

Things are still going very well between my husband and me with lots of physical affection. We didn't ML last night but only because it was very late by time we went to bed and he has to be up at 6 am. But, I feel like a mess emotionally. On an anxiety scale of 1 through 10 with 10 being the point where I completely avoid caffeine and reach for the Xanax to prevent a panic attack, I'm probably a 7 right now. Yet, I also feel very happy and satisfied (my love bank or love tank is as full as can be). So, I'm happy and feeling emotionally fulfilled but I'm also on the verge of a panic attack. So, what's going on with me? Darned if I know.

Believe it or not, I'm probably more of an optimist than a pessimist although since the birth of my first child I've been a major league worrier, so it's not the happiness that's making me feel vulnerable and scared. The only thing I can think of now is that it's because this happiness and fulfillment is because of my husband; and I can't bear the vulnerability of being dependent on him. I'm scared of being needy and vulnerable (as you can see, the key word here is "vulnerable").

And, whether I'll admit it or not, I love him so much that I need him; and I don't know how to handle that. It scares me, and I don't know what I'd do if I lost him (and I'm not just talking about him leaving, but losing him to a drunk driver or something like that). I think that I'm strictly a one-man woman, and he's the man.

You asked how I dealt with the vulnerability early in the relationship. I have to think about that. Our relationship started like others that I had with one big difference. He's the only man I've known that I didn't want to leave after making love. I had a hard time literally sleeping with a guy after making love with him. He'd usually want to hug or touch, and I'd be hanging off the edge of the bed. I felt more comfortable in my own apartment but would have preferred that my lovers leave after ML. It's as though I really needed the emotional and physical space after ML. But, with my husband, from the first time we made love (we'd dated for 2 or 3 months first), I'd wake up in his arms and hugged tight against him and it didn't bother me. In fact, I loved it, and felt safe and protected for the first time in my life that I could remember. And, as good as it felt, it also made me feel uncomfortable. And, as time went on, I hated and fought against wanting him as much as I did.

He's often said that I run hot and cold, and he's right. But, I don't deliberately or consciously do so.
Hairdog, like I said, I'm still trying to figure this out myself. Meanwhile, what I love about Michele and other counselors such as Willard Harley is that they emphasize action (in other words, just do it) rather than saying that you have to understand why you feel the way you do before changing. The only catch, of course, is that you can only change yourself. I know that I've hurt my husband; I know that I'm responsible for a lot of the problems in our marriage; and I know that I want to change. Thanks to Michele and Willard Harley, I now know how to identify some of the problems and how to make good changes. I couldn't bear to hurt my husband anymore by starting to make changes and then going back to the old ways again. And, fortunately for me, he's very responsive to what I'm doing so it makes it easier to maintain the changes. I just need to make sure that I don't backslide.

Cemar,
I'm sorry about your sitch. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

I enjoy sex and I'm very comfortable with it; but I wouldn't say that I have a high sex drive per se. In fact, the first time I had sexual intercourse (when I was in college), I remember being slightly amused and wondering why it was such a big deal especially since I'd been having orgasms for quite some time from long make-out sessions that included minimal or no direct stimulation.

One of my major regrets is that I wish I'd let my husband control the frequency since his drive definitely is higher. If something happened and we couldn't have sex any more, I wouldn't be out cruising trying to find somebody for sex. If the physical urge was there, I know how to obtain physical release. I just can't imagine having sex (probably better identified as ML) with anybody except my husband.

Like the majority of women Willard Harley discussed in his book, His Needs, Her Needs, sex doesn't even make it into my top 5 emotional needs. Affection, including physical affection (and I'd classify ML with my husband as just one of many types of physical affection, including those sessions where I'll happily "do him" while he lies back and doesn't need to do anything himself), is my top need. Unfortunately, my top need is one that I'm often fighting against, which, in turn, has often left my husband deprived of one of his top emotional needs (I think that sex and affection are probably tied as his top 2 emotional needs, which is why I understand what you're saying when you say that you don't just want sex, you also want affection).


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers

To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken.
C. S. Lewis

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Mich:

What you have posted to Hairdog is what I was talking about in the other post I made to you.

You are a cyclical person. You are a person who constantly says, come closer, closer, closer...[panic attack] what the hell are you doing so close!! Back off!! They back WAY off. You feel comfy for a few days, or weeks. Then you start feeling lonely. So you invite them to come closer, closer, closer...

See the cycle?

Understand that what you are facing now is the enemy of your emotions. The only way to break this endless cycle is to 'fall back.' Resist nothing. You have a firm belief in the idea of 'control.' Control is an illusion.

Acknowledge your panic. Welcome it in your space. But do not allow it to 'take over.' Set it over there in the corner of your mind. Tell it it doesn't have to leave, but it cannot take over either. Tell it the two of you are going to have to learn how to co-habitate.

When you feel it creeping up on the scale-o-meter, you are going to have a find a way to divert your attention from it. Exercise is often a good way to do this, and I mean strenuous exercise. Do you jog? Ride a bike? Exhaust yourself physically.

Right now, you are in the midst of battling yourself. Let that be OKAY. Do not seek to rid yourself of this stage, but seek to learn how to LIVE with it. Once you accept it for what it is, yet refuse to give in to it, it will go away.

Corri

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Cemar you are obsessed with yourself , instead of always focusing on your own sexual needs open up your eyes and your mind and hear what your wife is telling you. If you love your wife like you say you do and you seem to like to read, so for your next book may I suggest Allies in Healing (When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child) Just maybe, after you have read this book you won't be so thickheaded and really start to hear her. Maybe spend a bit more time with her instead of crying the blues about your lack luster sex life here as you don't seem to get any of the good advice most people hear have been giving you. If you still can't crack that thick head of yours open after reading this book then maybe you should leave your wife and let her find someone that really does care about her. You can then pursue a life in the adult industry and take care of your HD needs.

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Glenn68:

I am not obsessed with sex. When I talk about sex, I mean sex and affection. They go hand in hand, restore one and the other might follow. Right now I get neither. Now I am trying to build a great marriage with her. I realize I need to spend time with her, communicate better with her, and I am working on this.

Now for the child abuse, she was never hit, just severely neglected. She may have also been raped, she claims it was only attempted by a drunk. Can you give me a short review of Allies in Healing as to what it might do for my marriage?

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Corri,
I can understand how you came to your conclusions based on what I've posted. And, what you said really got me thinking about some of the dynamics in my marriage. But, in thinking back over the years of our marriage and remembering what my therapist said (that my biggest issue is trust), what you said made me realize that I'm not cyclical because I don't invite my husband to come closer. I allow him to come close, but I'd never invite him. He's always been the pursuer, which is more comfortable for me.

And, I think that's the source of the anxiety I'm feeling now. I'm putting myself in a position where I'm vulnerable to rejection, where I'm doing something that feels very unnatural and uncomfortable for me.

I've been trying to think of an analogy, and the closest I can come up with is a dog that's been abused as a puppy. In another post, I used the term "dog happy" referring to how most dogs, including the one we have now, love physical touch such as having their bellies rubbed and being scratched behind the ears, how they'll come up and stand with their tails wagging and a doggy grin expecting and waiting for that physical attention, how a dog that's receiving attention like that gets a blissful look on its face and won't leave until you stop, and now easy it is for us to give attention like that to our dogs rather than to our spouses.

My husband has said that he's like our dog. But, in thinking about what you've read, I realize that I'm not. I used to think I was more like our cat, who's aloof, who'll LET you pet her as though she's doing you a big favor, who'll bite you if you try to pet her when she doesn't want to be petted, etc.

But, I'm not really like our cat either. She simply isn't an affectionate lapcat, and she's very content with her life.

I think instead that I'm like a dog my family had when I was a child that had been abused as a puppy. When we first adopted him, he'd watch us with a wistful or longing look but would run or walk away if you approached him. In the beginning, you could sometimes coax him to come close by offering treats and he would allow you to pet him. His tail would wag (more like a few thumps), and it was obvious that he liked being petted but was uncomfortable. You could never come up on him unexpectedly and pet him or he would turn around and snap or growl at you after which he would stand there shaking expecting to be kicked. After a while, he got to the point that you could approach him and pet him, and he'd even sometimes walk toward you (but never all the way) and wag his tail a couple of times, which was his way of letting you know that you could pet him. But, no matter how much he wanted or craved affection such as petting, he'd never be able to run up to us with complete abandon, tail wagging, expecting to be petted like the dog I have now.

Strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, I felt a kinship with the dog my family had. I was in high school and my family was falling apart with my parents arguing all the time and talking divorce and the kids in the family being ignored. Unexpected high medical bills for one of my sisters had also shifted the entire responsibility of paying for college on me. We lived near a fairly secluded beach (no houses directly on the beach either), and I could walk around there for hours because it was beautiful and relaxing. And, I discovered our dog's "love language"--long walks. We had a yard, so he didn't have to be walked; but I'd usually take him with me for the company and because I sometimes think out loud and you don't look as crazy if you're talking to your dog rather than thin air. And, we'd walk for miles and stop and sit for awhile before starting back home. I'd sit there thinking and sometimes talking to our dog; and he'd sit there next to me and let me pet him with a happy doggy smile on his face and his tail wagging (except when he was happily chasing seagulls). And, at home, I'd walk past him and tell him what a good dog he was and he'd thump his tail a few times and let me pet him; but he never was able to just get up and come to me expecting or asking to be petted. But, he would sometimes run to the door when he saw me and wag his tail, which I assume was his way of saying he wanted to go for a walk.

So, I think the point of this is that I'm like that dog in many ways. Sex itself, meaning the physical part of it, isn't the problem, and I'm lucky in that I've never had flashbacks like some women who have been molested do. Intimacy and trust are the real problems.

But, people aren't dogs; and I've reached a point (my epiphany) where I recognize that I've hurt and rejected my husband by my behavior and attitude and that I can no longer blame him for all the problems in our marriage as before. I've been in therapy, I know that I have a problem trusting, I know the root cause or causes, and I'm tired of just talking and analyzing while nothing really changes. And, what I'm doing now and have been doing since last Thursday is putting myself in a vulnerable position where he can reject me. In doggy terms, I want and really need his attention and I'm finally willing after all these years (and he has shown me over and over that I can trust him) to come all the way to him to ask for his attention and to offer him my attention without being asked, but it's not natural for me and it's extremely uncomfortable (as Michele suggests in her books, I'm finally "doing").


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers

To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken.
C. S. Lewis

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