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PeterB,

I feel for you, this sort of thing and IHS is really hard. Stay strong. It does get better, and her behaviour will ease up.

One thing I found that helps is mindfulness. Every time I know I'm entering a room with STBXW, I mentally prepare myself to be aware, focus on any conversation, and not let her get to me. It doesn't work all the time, I do forget. But it means I'm ready for any bad behaviour or attempted fights. I've seen a notable reduction compared to just after BD.

I also mediate, but that is something I've done long before BD1 and BD2. If I don't, I can't regulate my emotions.


Me: 47 w/ S10, D12, D3
Current T: 12; M: 11 years; BD1: 11-11-18; BD2: 22-04-22; STBXW: 41
Previous M: 4 years; Big D: 2004; XW: 48
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Things are as 'usual'. Looks like she continues to be in two minds but just the existence of a mind that might make her stay, also leads to a purposefully maintained equal and opposite mind. The former is unconsciousness and rather inconvenient for her, being that she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.

She still snaps at non-issues and her reactions are strongly negative when I have to request her to do something differently for our son (say, need to feed dinner early today because of such & such. Note that dinner is generally her responsibility except when she can't). There is no attempt whatsoever to understand my reasoning or to even communicate reasonably if she does not agree.

Yesterday morning he woke up early and woke her up, so she was in a surly mood, and unsurprisingly launched cutting comments on me during breakfast. Eg: That I'm sleeping well, while she is not. She actually knows that I'm not sleeping well. I average 5 hrs and on the best of nights, I get 6 hrs of sleep as I have had sleep problems since last year and have always been a very light sleeper. Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.

She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him). I take him to the playground 3-4 times a week but when the need arises, she diminishes that by saying that taking him to the park is a joke. Even here she actually knows that I have been systematically working on his gross motor skills in the playground and playground is a place that he really enjoys, and it is one of the few situations where he demonstrates some appropriate play skills (his general play skills are quite underdeveloped atm).

I am happy with my responses and behavior at home. I have not got even a little angry and not even mildly argued in any situation. But also making sure that I am not a door mat. GAL is going quite fine and feel quite motivated on several things. I am trying to maintain once a week meeting with friends and while it is not fully realized, success rate is improving.

Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.

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Man that’s tough to read, Peter.

Bottom line is a woman cannot love a man she doesn’t respect and clearly she’s not being respectful. I don’t think she has any fear of losing you because you tolerate her continual abuse and sh!tty attitude.

I’m going reiterate my previous message to you, call her bluff.

If she wants out so bad, ask her to leave and help her pack. And if she wants to meet up with the OM, then use that as fuel to propel yourself into a badass new life without her.

There has to come a time where you draw a line in the sand for your own self respect.

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Originally Posted by PeterB
she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.
Standard Operating Procedure around here for Wayward Spouses. Have you ever read Sandi2's thread on the Mindset of a Wayward Spouse? If not, you should... you'll likely recognize a lot of similarities and better understand their perspective.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.
Ummm...no. She doesn't get to decide this unilaterally. You two have to come to a mutual agreement, likely 50/50, or a judge will decide. Too bad so sad for her if she thinks she can dictate the result. Stand up for your rights and preferences. You've met with an L, right?

Originally Posted by PeterB
She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him).
It's certainly OK to vent here - it's a great forum for that & but try to focus on you and your child and don't give her the luxury of you caring what she thinks. Just be the best dad you can be and the rest will take a care of itself.

Originally Posted by PeterB
I am happy with my responses and behavior at home. I have not got even a little angry and not even mildly argued in any situation. But also making sure that I am not a door mat. GAL is going quite fine and feel quite motivated on several things. I am trying to maintain once a week meeting with friends and while it is not fully realized, success rate is improving.
Awesome! Keep it up.

Originally Posted by PeterB
Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a PA was already established in your sitch? Maybe there had been a break from it for a bit, but it sounded like the EA portion continued and the PA would likely reoccur when the opportunity presented itself.

PeterB it's one of the hardest things to grasp in this entire saga but you simply can't control her. If she's going to go meet up with AP, you can't stop it. They'll find a way no matter what. I know it's awful being your wife, and being married with a young child, but do what you can to let go:

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Doesn't matter if you're religious or not - drop the "God" part if not - but the concept of serenity and letting go of things you can't control is the right mindset.

Focus on yourself and your son. Easier said than done, trust me I get it.


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OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
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Peter, I am still sensing in you a tendency to apply logic and meaning to her moods, actions, and words. You have to understand that there is no logic. And that her actions and words will thusly be illogical.

A lot of LBSs get trapped into the: "She is nice, things must be improving! Oh, now she is mean its the end of the world!" My WW was rarely disrespectful or intentionally mean. Obviously, the things she was doing were not nice, but she wasn't doing them to be mean, she was doing them to try to be happy. If she had to hurt me to be happy, well so be it. But she usually was friendly, gracious, polite, even nice. But she firmly had 1 foot out of the door and was actively looking for EAs and PAs.

I would advise you not to assign meaning to what she says or does. She is angry because you exist. You could be the perfect husband and father, and she will still be angry because she sees you and the marriage as antithetical to what she wants and what she thinks she needs to be happy. WWs would wish their husband and marriage away if they could. But they realize that it will take effort and time to actually leave and D, and then if you have kids they know that you will still be "in the picture". This frustrates them. So they lash out. They rewrite history and even current events! They make "I never" and "you never" statements often. They are trying to find a way, against logic, to make their wants and perceived needs a reality.

As far as your question. Obviously this question is rooted in over-attachment. "If she goes it will end the MR." "I need to know if she PAs there." This is a cheeseless tunnel! As BL said, focus on you and your son. Assume that her trip in August is as much about meeting with OM as it is any other reason. Here is the thing, she will never admit, even if you end up D'd, that this trip is about the A. Even if you could know or have evidence, she will deny. Liars and cheaters lie and cheat. This is why discussing the R is not a good idea, you cannot believe anything she says. You are even seeing this in your interactions with her (IE you sleep well, she does not, she does everything, you do nothing).

This trip is outside of your control. What she does on the trip is outside of your control. Knowing if she meets with OM is outside of your control. You should assume she is going to meet with him, then make your decision about how to proceed thusly.

I have a friend who discovered and had evidence that his first wife, now ex, met with her OM at a hotel. He even knew the room she was in had a single bed. His EX admitted to sleeping in the same bed with the OM but was willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that they did NOTHING further. To this day, if you were to ask her, though he is remarried and she was, if not still, she would deny. Because that is what liars and cheaters do. They will defend their lies against all evidence until the end of time.


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Originally Posted by Thornton
Man that’s tough to read, Peter.

Bottom line is a woman cannot love a man she doesn’t respect and clearly she’s not being respectful. I don’t think she has any fear of losing you because you tolerate her continual abuse and sh!tty attitude.

I can't prevent what she thinks or says but I am enforcing my boundaries properly. One of which is to leave as soon as I hear something that is insulting. Does she fear that she will lose me? I don't think she does. It's a bit hard to do that in a coparenting scenario and still running the household together. I am not sure if I can do anything other than 180s and GAL - which might not give her the impression that she will lose me.

Originally Posted by Thornton
And if she wants to meet up with the OM, then use that as fuel to propel yourself into a badass new life without her.

Yes, that is for sure. But I do not know if she is intending to meet him. Regardless though I am expecting that and staying calm. I do have a boundary that I will D her if she meets the OM.

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Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
she cheated, has revised our MR beyond recognition and mercilessly trashed me in front of the people who matter to her now.
Standard Operating Procedure around here for Wayward Spouses. Have you ever read Sandi2's thread on the Mindset of a Wayward Spouse? If not, you should... you'll likely recognize a lot of similarities and better understand their perspective.

Yes I did, more than once smile. All of Sandi2's material has been really helpful.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Another example I remember: That we should separate, and she will keep him 3 nights a week.
Ummm...no. She doesn't get to decide this unilaterally. You two have to come to a mutual agreement, likely 50/50, or a judge will decide. Too bad so sad for her if she thinks she can dictate the result. Stand up for your rights and preferences. You've met with an L, right?

I have talked to a lawyer already. I am not paying too much attention to this statement because it was said randomly and besides, I am quite resolute that any negotiation of separation or D terms will see me come at it with everything I got. No compromises there and I will absolutely look after myself.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
She continues to ignore the time I spend on him and in spite of obvious evidence, pretty much continues to think that she does everything for him and I do not do anything (including spending 1x1 time with him).
It's certainly OK to vent here - it's a great forum for that & but try to focus on you and your child and don't give her the luxury of you caring what she thinks. Just be the best dad you can be and the rest will take a care of itself.

I am not affected much by her thoughts anymore but sometimes I tend to think what it entails in a possible piecing situation or post-reconciliation if any. I assess whether piecing is even possible under such behaviors.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Last but not the least: she is telling me that she wants to travel to her hometown and will likely do so in August. I understand that there is a good chance this bit of travel will end our M, but I am relatively calm. I have decided I will not come in the way of her travel at all. However, I feel I need to know if she PAs over there or even meets the OM (He does not live in her hometown, but they are from the same town. Obviously, if they want to fu*k they will meet there). Any comments/advice regarding this development will be really appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a PA was already established in your sitch? Maybe there had been a break from it for a bit, but it sounded like the EA portion continued and the PA would likely reoccur when the opportunity presented itself.

Yes they were spotted together so I am assuming that they were in PA. After she came back from her hometown her behavior on the phone and at late nights were highly suspicious (high likelihood of phone sex). Behavior with me was consistent with having an extramarital affair. That I hadn't caught on to it at the time is testament to the blind trust I had in her. I pieced it together only after BD and then used some intel to be sure of certain things. PA lasted for a week. Now its about 6 months of no PA. Last 3 months I have not seen suspicious behaviors on the phone, but it could be that she got cleverer at hiding it.

Originally Posted by BL42
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Doesn't matter if you're religious or not - drop the "God" part if not - but the concept of serenity and letting go of things you can't control is the right mindset.

Focus on yourself and your son. Easier said than done, trust me I get it.

I'm not religious but this quote sounds great to me. This forum and DB principles have taught me to be mindful of what I can and cannot change. This has been a game changer. Negative thoughts around my sitch still come up all the time. Thoughts like why we landed up like this, this situation [censored], what will happen to my ASD son after we D, my wife cheated on me etc. My ability to deal with them is improving though. The fact that I have not got into depression and feel highly motivated on GAL activities makes me feel good.

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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Peter, I am still sensing in you a tendency to apply logic and meaning to her moods, actions, and words. You have to understand that there is no logic. And that her actions and words will thusly be illogical.

I am mostly unaffected by her ramblings but that is because I have been practicing mindfulness and some DB principles. I think it will be helpful to remind myself that she is guaranteed to be illogical. Lack of logic is even beneficial to a WAS.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
A lot of LBSs get trapped into the: "She is nice, things must be improving! Oh, now she is mean its the end of the world!"

This is a much needed clear and concise encapsulation of this syndrome. I see that some of my mental responses can be characterized by this syndrome, but I also feel that I am not really trapped by this. The meanness is probably just this - "They are trying to find a way, against logic, to make their wants and perceived needs a reality.". End of the day, these are mere ripples in a river. These perturbations will not change the river's course.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
...she usually was friendly, gracious, polite, even nice.

Probably crumbs. These are easy as long as the goal of finding an A is on track.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
As far as your question. Obviously this question is rooted in over-attachment. "If she goes it will end the MR." "I need to know if she PAs there." This is a cheeseless tunnel!

I need to know because I had set a boundary - one where I will D her if she PAs again. If I don't know then it will be tough to go down that road (based on suspicion alone, however credible that suspicion might be).

Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is why discussing the R is not a good idea, you cannot believe anything she says.

Yes this is another of my boundaries. No R talk at all. Neither can I believe her, nor is it beneficial to me in anyway.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I have a friend who discovered and had evidence that his first wife, now ex, met with her OM at a hotel. He even knew the room she was in had a single bed. His EX admitted to sleeping in the same bed with the OM but was willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that they did NOTHING further. To this day, if you were to ask her, though he is remarried and she was, if not still, she would deny. Because that is what liars and cheaters do. They will defend their lies against all evidence until the end of time.

Lol this is hilarious. Will keep this in mind. Actually I am reconciling with the mindset that I don't need to know anything more. She did cheat - I already know that 100%. I also know that she blames me for her action to cheat and will not take responsibility for it. Why bother to discuss this. Not beneficial to me.

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Peter, I like it! That was a very strong response. I know that our resolve ebbs and flows, so do not be surprised when the things we've discussed above come flooding back. I know I had good days, and I had bad days in my DB journey. As time went on it swung from more bad than good days, to more good than bad days. I think you are well on your way in that journey. But, as with all of us, there are still some cracks. We find ways to convince ourselves that we need to know what the WAS/WS is doing. And we can come up with some very good reasons for it. But if I could count on my fingers the number of LBSs that came here saying that a PA, or another PA, was the final straw, but then found out about a new PA and hedged on that I would need 17 hands to count all of the fingers.

We want to know because we WANT to know. Understanding this and admitting this helps us move forward. I was an obsessive snooper. If you read my threads you will see that was my biggest struggle in becoming emotionally detached. Obsessing about where she was, what she was doing, and whom she was doing it with. And due to my background I could read an electronic trail to piece things together. BUT, it was holding me back from being fully detached. I could make excuses for why I needed the intel, but as the vets here taught me, I already had all I needed to know to make an informed decision, but I still obsessed about what she was doing. Deep down it was a wishful thinking that she wasn't engaging in the things that I suspected. But as I said to you above, it was really a cheeseless tunnel that I kept impulsively running down.

What I can tell you is worrying about what she is or isn't doing on this trip is not emotional detachment.


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Peter

So I disagree with the last poster that a PA is a cheeseless tunnel for you if it is a true boundary for you. I believe you that if she PAs again you are done. The only thing you need to do is to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

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