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Oh Eagle,

I’m sorry…and I wish I could just hug you. It’s like salt on an open wound.

I agree with DnJ that things are not always as they appear. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting.

I wonder if he was sloppy with the card charges or if he is looking for that jolt…that jolt in a reaction from you that you still care? For his own ego or selfishness? As for your MIL, it doesn’t sound like she is the one you should look to for the reality of the situation (considering you mention past issues and distance). It might be hard to explain her rationale, and it could be very selfish and have nothing to do with you. I know it still hurts, but maybe feeling the love and connection you have with the rest of the family will help you to focus less on your MIL and the perceived replacing of you? I suspect that their opinions matter more and you feel safe in their feelings for you?

I struggled with feeling replaced as well when I heard that my STBXH brought OW to meet the family around the holidays. But later, I found out that even though they were polite and let her in for STBXHs sake, they also were curious and wanted to see for themselves if she was worthy…and in the end, they told me that she doesn’t compare. But of course this was months after I had my big cry over it suspecting that I’d been replaced. I’m even divorced yet and she was doing holidays with the family! Ugh. So again, perceptions can vary and in the end, it’s your relationships that you maintain with the family yourself that matter the most.

Sending you hugs. And congratulations on the house!

El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hi Eagle. How are you? I was thinking of you and wondering if you are okay.

((Hugs))
El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Dear El,

Thank you for checking in on me.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I wonder if he was sloppy with the card charges or if he is looking for that jolt…that jolt in a reaction from you that you still care? For his own ego or selfishness? As for your MIL, it doesn’t sound like she is the one you should look to for the reality of the situation (considering you mention past issues and distance). It might be hard to explain her rationale, and it could be very selfish and have nothing to do with you. I know it still hurts, but maybe feeling the love and connection you have with the rest of the family will help you to focus less on your MIL and the perceived replacing of you? I suspect that their opinions matter more and you feel safe in their feelings for you?

TBH, don't know and don't care. I only did what I thought was good for me, and that is letting him know I don't want anything to do with that anymore. In regards to MIL, she really is a lost, bitter and tormented soul. And I'm glad I don't have to deal with her anymore. She caused enough pain.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good afternoon,

I finally got the final date when I can move into my new home!
As from the beginning of July I am officially the sole owner of a beautiful home and the decorating can begin. I look forward to it.

Lately I've been getting a lot of compliments on how good I look. (I’m bragging here, LOL)
Normally I don't pay much attention to that, but I have to admit, it feels good.
The reason is because of course I do a lot of sports since a year and this pays off, but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.

It isn't always easy, but luckily the huge emotions are limited to when I'm at the therapist and has little to no effect outside of that.

I've also been thinking a lot about my past (both with EXH and without EXH), my present and my future. I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.

So I can get up in the morning, get ready and think about EXH and the past we had together and how I still miss it. In the car I then think about the fact that this past is effectively the past and that I must be happy that I no longer have to be with a person who would never have interested me in the first place in the form of who he is today.

And then I feel genuinely happy. Sincerely happy for what I have in my life today.

Would this be the first stage of acceptance?

As you know, our S's had no contact at all with EXH until recently. Twin S14 1 wants absolutely nothing to do with his father and he does not deviate from that today. EXH therefore no longer sends him messages. Twin S14 2 has always replied when his father sent him a message, but has said so far that he is not yet ready for meeting up with his dad in person.

However, S17 has taken the plunge. He is the one who looked up to his father immensely and somehow still believes that his nice personality is still there somewhere, although it is not coming to the surface today. (is his perfect right to believe that, even though it's been causing him a lot of pain in recent years)

This was in response to an email I sent to EXH about S17.
I waited a long time and hesitated to do this, but I did. As you know, S17 is having a very hard time in his final year. He rebels (not at home, but at school) and EXH found out about this through some e-mails sent by the school. I have been talking to both son and school for weeks and we are making progress. EXH, however, wanted to talk to me about that situation which I initially brushed off (albeit because, see my previous posts, when he last left he made it clear to the children and me that he didn’t want to be involved in their education anymore as this was too difficult to handle for him…)

But forgiving as we are I sent him an email. Not for him, but for myself and for S17 in which I gave a clear explanation of the facts but where I have emphasized the following:
“It's easy to judge
It's more difficult to understand.
Understanding requires compassion, patience, and a willingness to believe that good hearts sometimes choose poor methods.
Through judging, we separate
Through understanding, we grow.”

This is because the last few years EXH was just really hard on them about their studies, their grades, and never effectively asked about their personal lives, it was always about performance, performance, performance and judging when not good. (and if it was good no compliments were made)

Short response from EXH the next day: your mail makes sense to me, I'll do something with it.

Hence the question whether S17 wanted to meet. And S17 agreed.

I won't go into too much detail about it but S17 was completely drunk when he got home (very unlikely for you as this is not allowed in your country, relatively possible with us as you can legally drink from 16 years old)

BUT of course absolutely not normal for a father to do this with his oldest son after no contact for 3 months (and ever at that age). Complete manipulation of son, asked about our new home, my current activities, activities of Twins14, has praised him into heaven how good he is and made promises (trying to buy love) which has a huge influence on S17.

I know it's up to S17 to find his way with his father. I was very angry about the fact that he drove home in a drunken state with his bike (EXH just let him leave like this) but unfortunately I have little influence on what has been said. As this has been going on for several years now, he most probably will be banging his head against a stone wall again and Mom will have to be there to catch him.

I assume it is what it is…EXH still lost in the MLC madness and wants to have control over our lives through S17 who takes the bait at the moment.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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I just peeped in on the boards right when you posted this Eagle. I want to send you a huge hug and a lot of love. I loved reading about your growing self awareness, your conversations with yourself in the car -- I do that too all the time though I often talk to God, it helps me direct my thoughts toward something better than me!

About the rest of your post -- I was reading along sort of normally but thinking about all the checkmarks of NPD your description was hitting. When I got to the drunk part, my jaw literally dropped and I felt like crying. Thinking of your son on his bike on the way home, drunk and confused in his heart even if he didn't realize it, that just kills me. I work with teens and just love their souls so much, they are almost always in so much pain just from waking up into this world, even without the terrors inflicted by the MLCer! I don't care if it's legal there, that is so messed up. My H is also an alcoholic and would do that the first second he could, he already encouraged my D to drink wine when she was like 10 and drinks a bottle or more of wine in front of her everytime they are together.

Is S17 in therapy? I am the child of a family that literally had three people with cluster B disorders, two diagnosed and one never diagnosed -- my mom, my brother and my father. My fear now is that my kids will be drawn to marry such a person, just as I was, without having any idea that that was driving their attraction, so I just focus on trying to get them to get a clarity of mind and a self-confidence I never had. I think the only hope for our kids is to process everything and be able to see more clearly, I didn't do that and looking back, it's astonishing how clear it is that I married my wounds and then had no idea that the way my H treated me was not normal or okay, even long before BD, maybe from the earliest days of our dating. So that would be my advice to you, get those kids into therapy so that they can process this pain and understand boundaries and what kind of relationships they should seek in this world. Even before H, all of my relationships followed this pattern.

I want to paste something below about children with an NPD parent. Do some research on that if you haven't already, it will help you understand what your child is going to face and what he will need to do to heal. I assure you it's all real, this describes my upbringing and the effect it had on me exactly, just didn't understand until very recently that the way I felt and functioned was not normal. I even believe that my cancer was tied to this chronic stress.

Lots of love to you and especially to your sons. Thank god they have you to bring light into their lives.

6 Common Traits of a Narcissistic Parent and The Trauma Symptoms They Can Cause

1. Self-Importance
The word that comes to mind is “grandiose.” The narcissistic parent will exaggerate and lie about themselves. They’ll demand your attention while neglecting your needs. Worse, they often view their child’s increasing independence and autonomy as a threat to their own interests. If so, they likely squelched and sidelined your talents, interests, and growth and kept the focus on their dreams.

Being raised around someone who takes up all the psychic space can lead a person to feel chronic shame, worthlessness and unimportance.

2. No Respect For Boundaries.
A narcissist seems incapable of recognizing that other people have needs. As a result, they will not respect the boundaries their child sets. In fact, a narcissistic parent is adept at making their kid feel guilty for even daring to set a healthy boundary. Their wishes and demands are framed as something you owe them and should want to do. Guilt and manipulation are common ways that your boundaries are breached.

In a sense, boundary issues are the hallmark of early trauma. Inadequate boundaries are one of the most challenging traits of children with narcissistic parents. Many of my clients have struggled to strengthen weak, wobbly or non-existent boundaries. Others were at the opposite end of the spectrum. They needed help letting down their walls and allowing someone in. After what they endured, trust in others did not come so easy.

3. Communication as Warfare
To put it mildly, you will not experience honest communication from a narcissistic parent. For years, your mother or father may make it a habit to put you down, making it clear that they are superior and in control. They will be inappropriately or hurtfully competitive, persistently critical, unfavorable comparisons, subtly humiliating, and more.

Over time, the way they invalidate you and keep you off balance wears down your self-esteem. It robs your relationship, such that it is, of genuine positivity. Instead, you feel confused, rejected, and traumatized by the lack of love and acceptance. Have you experienced a parent who

Talks over you
Makes every conversation about them
Avoids topics of importance to you
Assumes dominant and threatening postures
Never asks about you
Doesn’t listen
Interrogates you
A major therapeutic task for many of my clients has been to learn how to break the deeply ingrained survival response of fawning. This is the tendency to make yourself invisible and focus on meeting the needs of others. It’s a survival strategy that evolves out of our nervous system’s natural ability to submit and withdraw when we feel we are in the presence of a predator and are facing mortal danger.

Other patients I’ve worked with were stuck in constant battle. They sought my help because they had to learn to disengage their fight response. Our therapeutic work involved softening their chronic defensiveness and belligerence. It was making them miserable..



4. Gaslighting
Don’t expect your narcissistic parent to own up to a mistake. They will manipulate you into believing you either misunderstood or made up the whole thing. By the end of the discussion, they may even have you apologizing.

While gaslighting is a term that is being bandied about these days, it’s a real thing. The lack of insight that a narcissist displays is very real and it’s effects can linger for years. For many of my clients, growing up with parents who played mind games resulted in endless bouts of self doubt and genuine confusion about their perceptions. Their lack of self confidence led to chronic difficulty making decisions. Haunted by aloneness, many felt as if no one could understand or believe their story.

Support and encouragement helped them to learn to trust themselves and the safe people in their lives.

5. Playing the Victim
Expect to be provoked into confrontations. The moment you show anger, your narcissistic parent will likely accuse you of attacking them. It’s also very likely they will accuse you of being abusive yourself. Often very narcissistic people will punish you by mounting a smear campaign against you. They may badmouth you and try to damage your reputation. This effectively keeps you quiet, frustrated, and prone to doing their bidding for the sake of peace.

Remember the saying, “hate usually comes from below?” This means that the reason the narcissist lashes out is because they are desperately trying to ward off deep feelings of shame in themselves. One client put it like this “This has left me with a bucket of emotional slime that I’ve spent years wiping off me”. That slime included; chronic anger, helplessness and fear.

6. Abusive Behavior and Neglect
Aside from the more covert manipulation listed above, a narcissistic parent will also engage in openly abusive behavior. Without a hint of compassion or empathy, they may subject you to mockery, humiliation, and physical threats or violence and neglect.

This type of behavior led my clients to battle some of the more classic symptoms of complex traumatic stress disorder. The common symptoms have included:

Emotional numbing
Dissociation
Distrust and fear in relationships
Emotional regulations problems.
Flashbacks- Emotional and physical
Difficulty with relationships
Self loathing- and a particularly vicious inner critic.
Arousal dysregulation of the nervous system. (problems with fight, flight, freeze, submit)
Stress related health problems

Last edited by Gerda; 05/24/22 02:45 PM.

I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Good Morning Eagle

Congratulations! Sole owner of your new home. How wonderful.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Lately I've been getting a lot of compliments on how good I look. (I’m bragging here, LOL)
Normally I don't pay much attention to that, but I have to admit, it feels good.
The reason is because of course I do a lot of sports since a year and this pays off, but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.

Excellent!

Those compliments do feel good. And you are correct, beauty is not skin deep. Beautiful inside radiates.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I've also been thinking a lot about my past (both with EXH and without EXH), my present and my future. I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.

So I can get up in the morning, get ready and think about EXH and the past we had together and how I still miss it. In the car I then think about the fact that this past is effectively the past and that I must be happy that I no longer have to be with a person who would never have interested me in the first place in the form of who he is today.

And then I feel genuinely happy. Sincerely happy for what I have in my life today.

Would this be the first stage of acceptance?

Yes. That is what acceptance feels like.

I suspect you can’t quite put your finger on where that feeling comes from. That “I’m sincerely happy” feeling. If you consider it, you feel this happiness by letting go, realizing, and in short accepting the past. Your beliefs influence and create these feelings of happy and joy and contentment.

Feelings are fleeting. Acceptances is not.

Grief is an emotional journey. Acceptance is emotional understanding.

Acceptance’s foundation is one’s convictions. Build well. Strengthen that which serves, craft that which you aspire to, and discard that which doesn’t serve.

When we start out, we all feel believe we cannot do this alone. That misguided belief is unrealized or hidden within our emotions and pain. Feelings that our convictions are reenforcing and influencing. Slowly, we alter our views and values and beliefs; and we feel differently. We accept.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.

I really like this piece. I spend a lot of time commuting as well. Time well spent “talking to myself”. Lol

Re negotiating/bargaining: This is part the stage of grief. Those huge emotions which you discuss with the therapist. One’s journey is multifaceted. We have many items all at different places along the path. Angry over somethings, depressed about others, accepting of some stuff, and bargaining other items. You might even discover a few lingering within the denial stage still.

However, the way you stated this, it’s negotiating with your own thoughts. Not emotions. Thoughts. (This really resonated with me, in case I’m being to subtle. Lol)

Negotiating with your thoughts is how one strengthens, crafts, or discards their beliefs. It’s challenging one’s deeply held view to see if it’s what they want. Does it serve or not.

I’ve walked beside you for a long time Eagle, and I’d place you more organizing your convictions than grief bargaining. An excellent thing. Beliefs than inspire being happy, and you will find joy and peace.

I am sorry about the sons interactions with Dad. S17 is certainly getting dragged into something, and was pumped for information from what you said.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I know it's up to S17 to find his way with his father. I was very angry about the fact that he drove home in a drunken state with his bike (EXH just let him leave like this) but unfortunately I have little influence on what has been said. As this has been going on for several years now, he most probably will be banging his head against a stone wall again and Mom will have to be there to catch him.

Yes, you will have little influence on what has been said.

Read that carefully. And again. What you wrote. “I have little influence on what has been said.”

Little influence is NOT no influence. You have influence! You make a difference!

Be consistent. Be the role model. S17, the twins, all watch and learn. Sure it doesn’t feel like that. And plenty of times teens rebel, ignore, and try to be cool. Or all grown up. Still, they do watch.

So have faith. And gently exert your influence. You have a power that H cannot wield, the power of consistency. You are the strong stable parent. And your influence, just from living your great life, will accumulate and encourage the boys.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I assume it is what it is…EXH still lost in the MLC madness and wants to have control over our lives through S17 who takes the bait at the moment.

Yes, it is what it is.

There are flavours of acceptance. The initial one is a more resigned accepting of things. That makes sense since one just exited depression. In time, as one accepts more and more, so long as long one doesn’t just dig in to that resignation lifestyle, a more inspired acceptance emerges. One becomes eager for thier future. Inspired by that which surrounds them. And firmly grasps their control of their life.

It is what it is, and it is what we make it.

Great post Eagle! You are doing so well.

D


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Love the person, forgive the sin.
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but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.

THIS!!! When I finally let go of my ex and began to embrace my independence, men began flirting with me in public in ways that never really happened when I was in my 20's (and objectively thinner and prettier). Self-confidence is attractive.

I'm sorry for the effect your ex has on your kids, but happy for you that you will be starting a new life and letting go of the baggage of the past.

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congrats on your new home, Eagle. I'm sure you and the boys will have a blast making it your own. xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Hi Gerda,
Thank you for your cleat explanation about NPD.
The twins are in therapy, S17 unfortunately not as he doesn’t want to go at the moment.
Can’t force him into going either, but luckily he is very open in his communication towards me so hopefully this will be sufficient for now.
As you know before EXH’s MLC hit, which was about 2 years before BD, there was absolutely no sign of NPD behaviour so kids have never been confronted with this.
It was only when MLC hit, ages of kids were 12 and 9 that this behaviour came to surface, which is different of what your children and yourself had to endure.
But I definitely take into account that nevertheless, even if they were older, this still has a huge effect on them, therefore therapy is necessary. I hope one day S17 will see and acknowledge this as well. But it will be on his timeframe.

Thank you D, k, and B for your support.

A bit more of EXH behaviour of trying to control S17…

S17 had to make a task for religion a couple of weeks ago.

However, it was a task that had to be about a certain difficult time in his life (and to process it) and where he had to make this clear through a song and a piece of art and then link this to each other. Since S17 does not like to express his feelings to others and also has difficulty putting them on paper, he asked me to make this task together. We agreed to take his father as the subject.

It turned out to be a very beautiful but also very heavy task. Huge amount of emotion, an explanation of his anger, sadness, how he misses his old dad, why he doesn't understand that his dad doesn't want to seek help for his issues, that there are 2 personalities in him, etc.

Last week, when S17 saw his father, he told about this task to his father in a inebriated state, to which his father asked to read the task. S17 forwarded it a few days ago.

What follows was a message EXH sent to S17. I will post the broad outlines below.

"This was very difficult to read but it must have been very difficult for you to make as well. I would like to let this sink in for a few days and come back to it and then like to meet with you to talk about this. I understand what you are writing and don't blame you. However, I am now ready to ge the necessary help but preferably also by you. That same old dad is still inside somewhere, but he was just pushed away because of his own issues and together we can find him again. That's why I'm asking for your help. We still have a whole life ahead of us and we can make an exception for these last 5 years if we make up for it now and get closer to each other for the next 40 years. I love you"

I would really love to hear your opinion on this as I’m still way too gullible, this seems to be a characteristic which I can’t seem to get rid of. LOL

I also had another question regarding rock bottom.

You have to know that EXH has a log of money now, he doesn't work, OW2 doesn't work either and is constantly traveling and living a life where he doesn't have to deal with anyone. He has also made his R with OW2 public but does not say anything about it to S17 (S17 also wants nothing to do with this and I think this is obvious to EXH).

If he sends such a message to S17 about seeking help, but he still lives it up so heavily with OW2, is this possible?

Hence my initial thought, he may be more self-reflective after all, but the more I read this, the more I think it's another form of manipulation.

Again only words, not actions, and why ask for help from S17, it must be professional help in my opinion, S17 will not be able to help him get over his issues…


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Quick update over today's events...

S17 asked me to help formulate a response to the above mentioned message his Dad sent him.

We came up with the following:

Certainly not easy, but it hasn't been that way for a long time. You write beautiful words that I really want to believe in, but I simply can't anymore. I've heard this from you too many times when there was a glimps of the old Dad that you were going to seek help and every time you changed into that other person and you did nothing. That's why I chose to only know you superficially. You would like me to help you but that's something I won't be able to do, you can only do it yourself, with the help of professional people. What I can do is be there for you while you do something about your problems and when there is improvement, only then can I try to be there for you.

I also had to send an e-mail in regards to the movable property.
At first EXH was not interested at all in the furniture and a lot of things I can't take with me since too large so I decided to search for people who were interested in it. When I finally did, I sent EXH the rates etc. Then suddenly he said he would take all the furniture if sold for those rates as mentioned in the document. Really frustrating since I already did all the work on that.
No suddenly he came back to me today stating I can do wathever I want because I have done so many good things the past years for him. Also willing to pay my half of something that we still owe the authorities in regards to a company which we owned together. (and this is about 50K in total).

Bare in mind we only communicate through messages or e-mails, not in person or over the phone.

There is the awakening again it seems...and this during a holiday with OW2. (I think he is abroad again with her)

I know this is not problem anymore but still affects me and I wanted to mention it here to show how they can shift so swiftly.

Would this be because he is happy with her and therefore turning around? Have you ever seen this in MLC?

Last edited by Eagle3; 05/29/22 07:53 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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