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ScottB,
Originally Posted by ScottB
It was quick, 15 minutes. I felt a little cold and distant.
Hopefully another milestone in the process of bring you more detachment and closure.

Originally Posted by ScottB
There was a moment I debated being snarky to throw shade at her, but what’s the point.
I've been tempted at times as well, but have held back - it's fun to fantasize in our heads in the moment, but likely won't make you fear better afterwards. Best to take the high road.

Originally Posted by ScottB
She began to cry at the end and getting on the call it looked like she had been crying. I guess her grieving also makes sense, and I recognize how different the two of us are - it’s just hard for me to comprehend crying during the divorce proceeding that I fought for and wanted.
It just goes to show sometimes they're spinning as well. It's easy for us LBS to know our struggles and see them as happy and sure of their decision, but often they're struggling internally just as much. I remember my ExW always looked good and happy and when I said "how is easy for you" she said something like you have no idea how I cry in the car and I also happened across a social media board with quotes full of how people were going to perceive her and how she has to heal...etc. Sometimes the happy/confident façade is just that.

Originally Posted by ScottB
It is nice that it’s starting to feel like spring. Love the longer days. Hope to snowboard one more time or two and then go n to biking and kayaking.
Agreed! Can't wait for Spring and sun and more outside activities. Keep up the GAL...

How are your kids doing with it all?


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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I once read a story about a woman that had an affair, left her husband for the other man, then even falsely accused her LBH of sexually abusing their daughter. The last charges never stuck because there was absolutely no evidence that it ever happened.

At the final divorce settlement, after everything was done, she said to him as they were leaving that she was fully convinced that they would end up back together one day. After all that she did she still said that to him. I will never put anything past a WAS/WS. But you are 100% right that her tears make no sense. Typical WAS/WS.


M(52), W(53),D(17)
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Originally Posted by SteveLW
. I will never put anything past a WAS/WS. But you are 100% right that her tears make no sense. Typical WAS/WS.

Her tears make perfect sense.

I cried when the divorce happened even though I left and I filed. Because it was done. For me all that I thought my life would be died that day. And as exciting as it was to have a whole new life with a lot less awful in it it didn't override my grief for the family I wanted for my daughter.

I cried when my exH found a GF that he could change for. It didn't last. But it still hurt. I cried that he would do things with and for her that I begged for for 10 years. You couldn't pay me enough money to go back to my ex, or that life. And I was happily living with my current H when exH had the wonder GF who D19 and I grew to love.

Just because you don't want something because it's toxic for everyone involved doesn't mean you can't be hurt that things didn't go as planned. It doesn't mean that even if you're the one who was finally able to see how bad the cycle was and you were brave enough to pull the trigger that it brings you joy or simply apathy to be done.

Steve, no body wants to hurt their kids like that. Or make their own lives more difficult. And yeah there are a lot of WAS and WS that are so deep in their own crisis nothing makes sense, but most aren't. And most aren't total sociopath's like your little story there. In fact almost none are. Scott's exW is a human being with feelings. A flawed imperfect person just like Scott. Who made some really bad choices, and probably made some really healthy ones too. Like moving to legally end a toxic MR instead of dragging it out ad infinitum seeing as this will they won't they misery business was going on for YEARS. Normal humans don't stop caring about their exes because they left them. They just cared about themselves more. And sometimes that's for the best in the long run.

There's no such thing as a typical WAS/WS, only common behaviors. They aren't a monolith of illogical, irrational, and impulsive decision making. She cried because she was hurting. Because she's a human person and divorce is hard on everyone.

Last edited by wayfarer; 03/01/22 08:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Just because you don't want something because it's toxic for everyone involved doesn't mean you can't be hurt that things didn't go as planned.
Wayfarer I understand in your first marriage your exh wasn't willing to change. In Scott's case he seemed to do everything possible including meeting with an author of a book. Is this a case of too little too late? So you are convinced this is best for everyone including the children?


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
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�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
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A marriage that can't be repaired is either already toxic or will with absolute certainty will become toxic. And the longer one or both people hang on the more toxic it becomes. The thing about falling in love, marrying, having kids, then falling out of love is they know everything about you. They know what they can say and do to get in your good graces. They know what to say and do to push you over the edge. They know what they can do to poke the bear just enough to make themselves look like the victim. They know all of your insecurities and quirks. No body knows how to emotional manipulate you than the person you planned to spend the rest of your life with. And no body is better at actually following through with that manipulation than a person who doesn't actually want to be married to you or a person who desperately wants to keep you in the MR at all costs. That MR is absolutely no place for children so yes this is what is best for everyone.

Also being willing to do everything possible only matters if both people can see a way out of MR 1.0 into a MR 2.0. You can't force anyone to see the same future as you. Especially WAW/WW. Women if they aren't in crisis will think about leaving for years before they actually make their first attempt to go. And almost always they are saying what they needed and wanted in all those years. But there comes a point where there's no going back. Even if they wanted to, the level of resentment is so high and the levels of love and attraction are so low getting a brand new personality and a new lease on life isn't enough. Nothing is going to be enough.

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On division of assets, do the big things first. Agree on a method for valuation.
For the small stuff I scheduled a long day with XW where we had a babysitter and we started at the back of the house, went through every single box and drawer till we were at the other end of the house.
Long rough day, but it was efficient and after we had an agreement on everything. Even old family photos and pictures that the kids had made.


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
March 2020: I filed for D
Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
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Wayfarer: I thought your first post was excellent. Vulnerable, introspective, and honest. Thank you for sharing.

I do disagree with some of your second post. I’m generally concerned with the popular notions of “toxic” relationships that seem to be selling a lot of books these days. I believe in marriage as a place where two people accept each other and there mistakes and grow, both personally and together. But that’s just my perspective, not everyone needs to share it and it would seem my Ex didn’t believe it was possible with me.

So I started working through the annulment paperwork with the Catholic Church. If you would like to find it Google Form 100 Catholic annulment. It’s got 30 questions and it found some of the to be really good and insightful, though a bit sad.

I would describe it like an investigation of a crime scene or an old fashioned school report on the marriage. It includes detailed questions about courtship, family of orgin, communication styles, and the history of the marriage.

It will take me hours to complete properly but I’m already learning and seeing places where the marriage failed and where I failed in the marriage that I hadn’t recognized before and I wish I had.

I think my IC has really helped me become more empathetic as well as a desire to do so and some books that I’ve been reading. I credit some of Gottman, Brene brown, the book “the lost art of listenning”, as well as studies of the enneagram.

Wayfarer, what’s really sad to me, as Michelle points out in her book, is that I have been working on making the changes my Ex wanted for years. But, like you alluded to in your second post, she viewed all of it as a grand manipulation. If i did good it was manipulation, if I made any misstep it was Scott’s true self - now that attitude does create an air of toxicity. But if my ex could have paused and maybe trusted, maybe gotten vulnerable, and maybe stuck with it, she could have had the relationship she wanted.

Or maybe not.

But from my perspective

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I believe in my heart that I will be a better dad going forward and a better partner for someone else.

And that’s okay too.

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ScottB,

Being catholic I have a question. Will they contact your XW before granting the Annulment or does only one need to apply? I think my wife intends to apply after the d is final. Just wondering if I will be subpoenaed during the process. I’m thinking if the church knows what I know they would have her committed.

T


Me55 (53@BD)
W52 (50@BD)
S22 (20@BD) S20 (19@BD)
Married 23 Together 28
BD 9/29/19 (came home from weekend fishing trip and wife had moved out with no warning)
W filed 10/19/20 (Informed me via text)
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wayfarer,
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Just because you don't want something because it's toxic for everyone involved doesn't mean you can't be hurt that things didn't go as planned.
Wayfarer I understand in your first marriage your exh wasn't willing to change. In Scott's case he seemed to do everything possible including meeting with an author of a book. Is this a case of too little too late? So you are convinced this is best for everyone including the children?
A marriage that can't be repaired is either already toxic or will with absolute certainty will become toxic. And the longer one or both people hang on the more toxic it becomes.
Why is the assumption the marriage will always remain toxic? Isn't it the general consensus around here most marriages can be save if both parties are willing to work on it? My understanding is ScottB was willing whereas his now ExW ran off with another man. Not saying he's completely blameless in the marriage, but isn't she ultimately responsible for not coming to the table with him? And who is to say if she had come to the table with him it would've have potentially be a better result for their kids, him, and even her in the long run?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
She cried because she was hurting. Because she's a human person and divorce is hard on everyone.
Completely agree here.

Taz,
Originally Posted by Taz
Being catholic I have a question. Will they contact your XW before granting the Annulment or does only one need to apply? I think my wife intends to apply after the d is final. Just wondering if I will be subpoenaed during the process. I’m thinking if the church knows what I know they would have her committed.
ScottB may have more up to date info, but my understanding is both parties are asked to be a part of the process and if one party does not participate then only the filing party is granted the annulment. Granted it was decades ago but my uncle and aunt got divorced when I was young. It was scandalous at the time because no one in my family got divorced (guess I'm the scandalous one now!). Anyway, my uncle refused to participate in the process because his view is they absolutely did have a valid marriage for many years and it was silly to pretend otherwise. Anyway, my understanding was my ex-aunt (are they ex-aunts or just aunts?) was granted an annulment and my uncle was not because he did not participate/do the paperwork. How one of them was not in a valid marriage while the other one was is beyond me. At this point I'm leaning towards my uncle's view on the matter, though perhaps that'll change if I ever want to get married again.

ScottB,
Originally Posted by ScottB
So I started working through the annulment paperwork with the Catholic Church.
Originally Posted by ScottB
It will take me hours to complete properly but I’m already learning and seeing places where the marriage failed and where I failed in the marriage that I hadn’t recognized before and I wish I had.
Don't mean to dissuade you my uncle's/my views on the subject. I think it's great you're going through the process and glad to hear you're growing through it.

Originally Posted by ScottB
I believe in my heart that I will be a better dad going forward and a better partner for someone else.
There's no doubt. You're putting in the work and will be a better man for it.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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