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McRamone #2926398 11/16/21 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
I don't see her taking a big risk--you're eagerly waiting to show off changes you're making for her to appreciate. She can cancel the separation for as long as you're delighted for her to return. She's currently in the power position and checking in 2-3x this week.

Originally Posted by McRamone
given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here."
I would nix this. If she wanted space on that evening, she wouldn't be asking to come over. It's not your job to enforce her reasons for a separation you don't want and don't support. Does her coming over Wednesday and/or Sunday work for you? Make choices and express them.

Traveler #2926400 11/16/21 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
I don't see her taking a big risk--you're eagerly waiting to show off changes you're making for her to appreciate. She can cancel the separation for as long as you're delighted for her to return. She's currently in the power position and checking in 2-3x this week.

Doesn't DB talk about your changes? I'm not eagerly waiting to show of my changes. You act like I'm sitting by the door just waiting. Not the case. I'm trying to live my life. I'm working on them regardless if she comes over 3x week or No times a week.

She knows that she is risking me deciding not to be married anymore. I've made that clear.


Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here."
I would nix this. If she wanted space on that evening, she wouldn't be asking to come over. It's not your job to enforce her reasons for a separation you don't want and don't support. Does her coming over Wednesday and/or Sunday work for you? Make choices and express them.

Thanks for the insight. I feel like the advice is all over the map here.

McRamone #2926401 11/16/21 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Doesn't DB talk about your changes? I'm not eagerly waiting to show of my changes.

I feel like the advice is all over the map here.
There are advocates for slightly "softer" and "harder" approaches--but on many points it's cohesive. The goal is to make changes for YOU. In your previous post where you wrote, "I'm torn. I would like to see her and want her to show I'm changing." Been there, done that. Changes made to win someone back tend to be more temporary and tend to generate resentment. So, I'm pointing it out. So you follow the best possible track. The smallest, consistent changes are more meaningful than grand shows that fall apart with anger as soon as her applause doesn't materialize or goes away.

If there's a point where there seems to be disagreement, just ask. (:

McRamone #2926402 11/16/21 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
[quote=CWarrior] Thanks for the insight. I feel like the advice is all over the map here.
Mac there are several posters here with all different life experiences so you will get different opinions from different people. CWs is a walk away spouse himself so his advice is sometimes different then others.

DB-ing is very hard. And men and women are different. Even MWD will tell you that it's harder to turn around a WAW and WW than a man. Also, there is a tendency on these forums to get stuck in waiting mode. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship.

You need to make it clear that she doesn't get to play happy family when she is the one who left. You need to be clear and hardcore that there are consequences to her breaking up the family unit.

McRamone #2926403 11/16/21 07:29 PM
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Hi McRamone,

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So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.
Honestly.... it *is* manipulative. You trying to behave in a certain way in order to try to make her feel a certain way. That being said-- the GAL, etc is not in order to attract her back, though that may be your initial motivation. It needs to be for YOU. You being healthy, you being centered, you finding the things that you love about yourself that you might have lost being subsumed in a relationship. I think this is really important. I think it is difficult because most LBSs are mostly motivated by what they think will bring their S back, therefore the advice "the fastest way to get your W back is to go in the opposite direction" and "fake it till you make it" is common. If you really focus on yourself, you'll find that eventually you aren't doing these things in order to show her how much she should miss you, but because you genuinely enjoy them, that you are able to be balanced and happy even when you are S from your W, the fear will lessen and you will be in a much healthier mental state. A side effect of that is that many times, it will pique the interest again of your S-- but again, it does need to be genuine, not manipulative.

Same with the 180s. Perhaps the biggest motivator is to fix your relationship with your W, but I think you can have incredible benefits for yourself when you break out of your own mold and the role you usually play in your relationship with your W. You say that you're usually resistant to ideas and get hammered in MC with this. What's the harm of the next idea that comes along (as long as it isn't dangerous) to say-- okay! Sure! Let's try it! My H during the BD/affair time really hammered on this piece that I didn't like to "do things" as much as he did, which is mostly because I was the one making sure that the house was clean, the kids did their homework, etc. and so ended up being cast in the stick in the mud role. So I said, F it. I picked the kids up early from school and we skipped soccer practice and went out and had fun. If he suggested a hike and there were 10 reasons why not, unless those reasons were critical, I said sure! Let's do it. And I'm so glad I did-- not because it showed him anything about me, really, but it helped me rediscover a love of spontaneity that I had somehow lost with getting so bogged down being a working mom.

Again, I think your situation is different than many. Here's my best mind-reading guess-- she no longer feels "in love" with you, you guys focused too much on the kids or whatever. She had an intense emotional experience and realized what she is missing with you. Maybe she is still in touch with that guy, maybe not (you are so cryptic about this part, it would really help us to support you if we had a better understanding of what the role the A/EA played or plays in all of this), but regardless of any potential future with the AP, it highlighted for her the lack of those feelings with you. She wants to make it work with you, she loves you (maybe not "in love" but loves), loves your kids, loves the family, but is looking at life with you just being this slow passionless creep into old age and poof, there went her life. Sounds like she also has a lot of anger/resentment towards you, maybe deserved, maybe not. (If I were you, I'd spend some time here on whether or not her anger is valid. I don't think it is an okay excuse to say "my family was cool with reading each other's journals"-- I get that the first time, but after that you really need to respect her wishes. Are there other areas where you've been inflexible about how you like to do things vs. her way? I have read that many times WWs have tried for years to communicate to their Hs how unhappy they are and the Hs never listen until the W gives up.)

Maybe I'm a sucker but I do think she very well could be totally honest when she tells you that she loves you and wants to figure out how to make this work, and that this separation is her way of trying to resolve her anger and work out some things herself that need to happen before she can reengage with you in a positive way. But this is all her journey and work, not yours. And I think unless she does this work herself and can come back to the M with an open, honest, and authentic desire to be married to you and emotionally connected to you, then you're not going to be able to have the kind of M you both want and deserve. So as hard as it is, giving her this space to process and work on herself is the only path towards R. Of course, it isn't a guarantee. But it is where you have your best shot.

I agree with CW-- what's the harm of having dinner with her if she asks and you want to? As long as you aren't building up your own expectations or putting pressure on her and she's the one asking, I'd be okay with it. Especially given some of the complaints that surfaced in MC, I bet it would be attractive and a 180 for you to make a clear choice of what you want to do and express it clearly-- no "sure, if you want to" answers. I'd say "yeah, that would be great, see you at 6" and avoid any mind-reading or passive aggressive manipulations. But I wouldn't be available every time. How are you guys handling child-care responsibilities during this separation?

Re the hugs/kisses, I'd be playful here. I DEFINITELY wouldn't ever be the one to initiate, but if she does, I'd make it fun. Make her laugh. Don't be sappy or puppy dog eyes. If you can't do that, then avoid.

The conventional wisdom here is that the WS has to hit rock bottom, realize what they've lost, and come crawling back begging for a second chance. It doesn't always happen that way. It certainly didn't in mine. I'd be surprised if your W comes back begging, and if she does because she's afraid she's lost you, it may not be enough of a motivator to spur the hard work in your sitch.

A question for you-- what would make you say enough is enough and be ready to move on?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
McRamone #2926404 11/16/21 07:50 PM
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So much of the advice depends on whether your W is having an affair or not.

McRamone #2926405 11/16/21 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton
Your goal should be to make her feel like you are the one dumping her. You want to appear like you have had some big epiphany, and that you realize it was her all along that was keeping you from finding YOUR happiness. Now... you don't want to act like some cocky a-hole, but more like someone who is relishing being single and growing into a better version of themselves.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
She has to FEEL like she has made a mistake. She has to FEEL like she has lost you. Until this happens, you will be confused. When it happens, you will know. She will beg you for a second chance. When she does, your best response it make her "Qualify" herself. Lots of time before this happens to get prepared.
Originally Posted by McRamone
So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.
I can understand why you don't get it. Some of this stuff is hard to wrap our brains around.

When do you miss someone? When they are around or when they are gone?

This is an emotional issue that needs logic to address. There are no rules to this, but really good guidelines like "sandys rules". Logic tells me to examine what has worked for others.

There are behaviors that others men do that are attractive to women. Some of these men are extremely manipulative. The PUA community is a perfect example. But if you study them, there are attractive traits that you can add to the new you. If you are like most of us, you have a lot of potential to improve. I have been actively working on it for 10 years, and will most likely be working on myself the day I die.


I have done some things and been completely shocked at how a woman responds. The new behavior had positive results, So It is now part of me. Manipulation? Maybe? Maybe not?


If you do not want to manipulate her, set her free. Forgive her. Don't take anything personal that she does. Do your thing and she might want to come along for the ride. Most guys do not know how to do this. They supplicate. Very unattractive.

One of the best quotes from PuppyDogTails "The last thing I need in my life right now is ANOTHER WOMAN." That can be your mantra, but you do not need to proclaim that her.


I believe this is a perfect way to interact AT A DIFFERENT STAGE of the relationship.
Quote
W - "I didn't sleep well last night"
M- "Oh was it because of the new mattress you are on?"
W- "No" Then she launched into how it affected her. She missed me, missed the kids. etc. I just acknowledge that is was rough. Then made a joke about how I can sleep in a warm room now (she like to keep the windows open...even in winter and it was freezing)

At this stage this would be better:
Quote
W "I didn't sleep well last night"
M- "Really?"
W- "Yes" Then she launched into how it affected her. She missed me, missed the kids. etc. I just acknowledge that must be rough FOR HER. I then stated how I had a great night sleep.
This is your poker face time. Smile with your eyes and walk out.


Quote
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
So how much of a MR Nice Guy do you want to be? I think agreeing with her is OK. You are still in her frame. Attractive men bring a woman into HIS frame.


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I need advice on 2 things.

1- So later on, she talks about how she's coming over to cook dinner on Wednesday. Then she talked about coming over on Saturday. I want to say this to her but wanted to run it by the people here.

1-"if you want to take the kids and have dinner at your place let me know" However, given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here." Thoughts?

Admittedly, I'm torn. I would like see her and want her to show I'm changing. But really defeats the point of her moving and I think it could cause me problems.
This is where that counter-intuitive thing come to play.

Do your kids have cars? If not, "I have something going on Wednesday, I can drop the kids off at your place around 6 and pick them up at 10 if that works for you"..

Quote
She was also way more touchy than normal. She grabbed my hand at the table when she was talking to me. When she left, she gave me a hug, a kiss and said ILY.

2- I don't know how to respond. Do I say ILY back when she says it? Do I say nothing? I don't go seeking out hugs/kisses, but I don't want to give her the Heisman- arm straight out BOOM.
I would respond different every time. I believe you should be building sexual tension if you are trying to attract her. If she is sleeping with other guys, move on. Be high value. Again, you need to reframe this. You want her pursuing you.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
may22 #2926407 11/16/21 08:44 PM
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[/quote]Honestly.... it *is* manipulative. You trying to behave in a certain way in order to try to make her feel a certain way. [/quote]

Call it what you want but this is directly advised by MWD herself. I don't have the DR book anymore but I can remember reading the LRT technique and one one of the bullet points was ... You need to act like you have had an awakening and now realize you will be just fine with or without your spouse. In other words "Act as if".

And I can personally attest to doing this and it working. My ex begged for me back. Now our relationship once again fell apart because we simply weren't right for each other. But "acting as if" certainly caught her attention, more than once.

LH19 #2926408 11/16/21 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
So much of the advice depends on whether your W is having an affair or not.
That is the truth.

You can give her the benefit of doubt.
You can use her past behavior and current behavior and human nature to make some educated guess.

Either way, you are competing against a real or fantasy guy. Are your behaviors making you look weak or strong?

Just remember, you are competing with single guys with no morals. Woman that are unhappy and blame their marriage (or husband) are easy targets.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
LH19 #2926409 11/16/21 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
You need to make it clear that she doesn't get to play happy family when she is the one who left. You need to be clear and hardcore that there are consequences to her breaking up the family unit.
Most new posters can't/don't do this. So we then offer "softer" options, which in my opinion are less effective.

You have a huge array of ways to interact and behave. Behavior A may have worked well for one poster, but completely bombed for another. Sifting through all the choices and making decisions is part of your learning process.



You have lots of options as far women, but right now you want this one, and for good reasons. We want you to succeed in keeping the family together. All you can do is your best. Ultimately it is her decision. Part of her decision is based on how she perceives you. There are so many layers.
Projecting that you want her but not need her is part of it. Behaving as a high value male.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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