My Story P3...Acceptance of the MLC Madness

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

You are correct, “dropping the rope” refers to emotional detachment. We either let go or get dragged around.

On most of his actions I have found a certain balance, I can control my feelings and most moments I can look or think about him and say, OMG, how far gone are you, and don't feel pain or anything.

Excellent! That is a most wonderful result.

To help you solidly and promote this to other aspects: It is not our feelings we directly control, we only influence them. One can control their thoughts and actions/reactions.

If you or anybody else can give me some advice on how to reach this stage, please do so.

Realizing the extent of one’s direct control and one’s much further reach of influence allows one to achieve their desired results with far less fruitless endeavours of trying to control that which we cannot. This rationalizes the process of detachment and indifferent. And internal things that are rational are controllable.

Indifference happens in time. And like you said, sometimes we require a little push to get us going along. An external influence to resolve and accept some internal item we don’t yet understand.

I know, it is out of my control, it is a sympton of MLC etc. but that doesn't seem to help. Must be my difficult point to overcome.

Precisely.

(((Hug))) It’s ok. Perfectly normal and healthy. The answers most present themselves when one is calm and not actively searching. As counterintuitive as that sounds.

There is only one thing though whereby I loose it and that is when I start focusing on OW2. Why, because I absolutely don't have a clue what kind of R they are having and this is making me nervous/anxious at times.

A few strategies and ideas to promote and influence furthering indifference. I’ll be specific regarding indifference towards OW2 as well.

Rationalize the process. See your control. See what you do influence. And see what is triggering you.

When you “loose it” and start focusing on OW2. Stop! Imagine a big bright red STOP sign. And do what it says. Stop!

This is actually a strategy of detachment. And we know how entangled indifference and detachment are. However, one needs detachment before indifference.

Let go or be dragged. You can see it happening when thoughts of OW2 come up. You are unwillingly being dragged about.

Another tip. Schedule a time to be attached. A time to think about and ponder your feelings about H and OW2. A time to actually feel about this situation.

This scheduling has certain tangible benefits (in no particular order ): Schedule a time, like 10 minutes, from 7:00 to 7:10 to allow yourself to be attached. Set an alarm. And do to. Force it. Like cessation of smoking, it weans one off their spouse. It makes it less desirable. A forced time of feeling this stuff also makes it less triggering from some random external event. You are triggering it, everyday at 07:00. Not some outside influence. And that which you can trigger, you can control!

These ten minutes once a day will quickly become all the time time you spend / waste on OW2. Seriously, the remainder of your day will become all your’s. Then, let go those ten minutes. And by the way, by then you will most likely have already stopped. However, if not, set the alarm for 5 minutes, then 3, then zero.

Scheduling also makes it real. The situation of OW2 happened, or is happening. It is real. Treat it as such. A lot of time the default is to first ignore this ugly and horrible thing. That a pretty normal response. And that ignoring becomes the norm. We need to face it. Indifference isn’t ignoring, it is facing a situation and becoming so healed and confident that it no longer hurts.

Yes, you absolutely don't have a clue what kind of R they are having and this is making you nervous/anxious at times. Ah, our imagination. Now where’d I put that big red stop sign?

I’m going to submit that the male ego is just as fragile as the female ego. I get it. I’ve been replaced too. It’s horrible! Letting go one’s ego is a difficult thing. Our need and desire to be right, to be vindicated, and such, is very powerful and strong. Be stronger! Trust me on this. Letting go your ego and needs to prove brings far more power and strength than you can realize right now. And letting go one’s ego tempers that strength with understanding, compassion, and forgiveness.

One of the biggest strategies, not just for indifferent, for life, is having and seeing your destination. I suspect you see how most of my posts deal with the vision of our lives. To live a great life, one needs to see it first.

The destination is acceptance, forgiveness, understanding, compassion, empathy, etc. Living in the light. A clear destination allows a better path. And all journeys are made of small steps. We at times many not realize the small steps we take, yet after a while we are amazed at how far we’ve come. Keep your headings noble and good. For everyday you walk your path, even if you don’t see it.

We all require a certain level of understanding before we can will let go. Rationalize the irrational. Understand yourself. And in doing so the world turns a sharper focus.

OW2 is a symptom of H’s MLC. She is also a person. Remember, indifference is facing a situation and becoming so healed and confident it no longer hurts.

Your anxiety, nervousness, and fear regarding OW2. Currently, your triggers exists outside of your rational thought and control. Therefore, thoughts regarding OW2 influence unwanted feelings and anxiety.

Some truths: You are imagining a far better picture than H and OW2 are living, or lived. You are comparing yourself to OW2.

So, let’s rationalize this. See it clearly. Feel it clearly. Become indifferent in the very best meaning of the word.

You know H’s life. He shows regret. He’s told you some of his demons. He is a troubled man. Any relationship he would attempt is a shadow at best. One cannot have a meaningful wholesome relationship if they do not love and have a relationship with themselves first. H does not love himself. The rest fall apart after that.

The truth of a relationship with such a broken troubled soul - it is built upon a foundation of sand. Sand is a terrible weak foundation to build upon.

OW2 is drawn to H. She is equally or more so broken and troubled.

Turn your comparing around 180 degrees. You have been comparing you to OW2. Compare OW2 to you. She falls short on so many desired traits and convictions.

You are far more loyal, loving, faithful, honourable, compassionate, whole and healed, than she. You display it. You live it. You have the very life and family OW2 is desperately after. Your boys love you! Because you are you! (Strength and confidence.)

The truth, there is no need to demonize OW2. She is not worthy of such. She is, in fact, worthy of your forgiveness. Oh my, that is such a big leap. Yes?

Trust me. Forgive OW2. It is for you. Realize you forgive the sin, not the person. So, in fact, it’s love OW2 and forgive her sins. Believe me, it’s not as far away as it sounds. When one understands something or someone, empathy flourishes. How can one hate someone who is so understood? When you cross that threshold and discover and understand, it all becomes so clear. In the act of understanding you find love / truth and all their once held power disappears. That is a different kind of indifference. One that becomes you. One that is whole and healthy.

Forgiveness of OW2 is just another waypoint / destination along your journey. Another noble goal of which you can base why and which small steps to take. Those noble steps influence indifference and more importantly will allow healthy unwinding and emotional understanding.

And that is all acceptance really is - emotional understanding. It is quite a journey.

D

[kml]

And let's be fair to OW2 - she may have NO IDEA that he isn't already divorced, or amicably separated. You don't know what he's been telling her.

[Eagle3]

Well, those two replies gave me a lot to think and act! about this week.

The first 2 days I applied the method you described to me DnJ, amazingly the desire to think about her faded and was completely gone the 3rd day. For the rest of the week I didn't even think about it for a minute and mainly put the focus back on myself and the children. So thank you for that!

About the fact that I don't know at all what kind of R they are having/had + the fact that I really don't know at all what he told her makes it much easier for me to distance myself from this.
I know that I sometimes unconsciously create truths of my own. (thak you kml for pointing that out)

S17 has been having a hard time recent weeks. I had noticed it myself, but came out in the open after 2 of his teachers sent an e-mail about his behavior of the last few weeks. H also received these emails.

It took days before S could communicate openly. I know I have to be patient with S.

First he expresses this in frustration, this goes from making nonchalant remarks or showing arrogant behavior, both in school and at home, then he starts telling step by step what is wrong.

Apparently he's been having a lot of difficulties with his F's behavior lately. When he showed heavy MLC behavior he struggled with that for a long time, but then gave it a place, after all it has been going on for 3 years, but now that H has been awake for several weeks, it is difficult for him to take a position on how to deal with it.
On the one hand he is happy that his F is so calm and open and shows a lot of behavior from the old H, on the other hand he is afraid that it will only be temporary, so he actually wants to keep his heart closed but then actually not again.
He is also having a hard time with the impending divorce.
He doesn't understand that I'm giving up, after 3 years of fighting for the M, and now that H is finally making progress, the D is on the program. He cannot understand that either.

The strange thing is that I actually have the same feeling in many areas. So you can see how strongly children experience all of this, especially when they are older and aware of what is going on.

I told S17 that I'm not giving up, but that most likely the reason for his awakening is actually the fact that he is starting to realize he is losing everything. I also told him that his F wanted the D, he only didn't want to arrange anything. Then there is the fact that there is only progress in H's behavior towards reconnection with the kids, not towards me and S has difficulties to understand this. I told him that this could take a long time, and possibly will even never happen again.
But that what is happening now is maybe the way forward, even if it involves a D.

H called yesterday to talk about S. I told most of the above honestly (definitely the 1st part about the feelings S has towards his F, but skipped the last part about what I told S about not giving up, I only told he had difficulties with the D, nothing more) and he was again very understanding and understood S17's response perfectly.

He suggested talking to S himself if he was open to it, this over the phone (H still lives abroad) or F2F. S has to choose what he feels most comfortable with. If S wants, H will fly over next week to talk about it, the two of them together on a night out.

Something different.
Somebody gave me the advice to gently ask H if it was not better to put the D on hold for a while, since he is making progress. I have my own opinion, and would like to know yours if possible.

Yes, I do still want reconcilliation if H is becoming his new self. The one I see currently I really like but I don't want to push him away with reconnection or reconcilliation talks. I think he is the one who needs to start showing his interest, or do I see this wrongly?

Thx.

[Gerda]

Hi, Eagle -- Sending you lots of love!

It looks to me like you are doing a lot of heavy lifting for you H. Trying to fix his relationship with your kids or explain his behavior. Thinking about pointing out truths to him to shift his course. I know you don't see it that way but for someone like me who went completely dark, it really looks like you are still tied to that in many ways.

The D has nothing to do with his choice to stay or leave. You can D and restore or you can not D and restore.

My advice would be to be there for your kids but don't get involved in trying to influence anything. Just let your S talk about his feelings and ask him questions to help him decide what to do. Don't tell your H anything about your kids unless he initiates the questions. Write long letters to him about not getting a D or ask God or the universe or the forest trees to convince him to stop, but then burn or bury the letters. Don't tell your H any of that stuff. Lighthouses don't talk or ask ships to come see their light. They just beam light in the darkness. It's great that you said very little about your S but I would say even less. You can say things like, "I am not sure about that. When you next see him, sounds like a conversation to have." Or "S is very private but perhaps he will talk to you about it some time."

I personally wouldn't talk to him about this stuff at all! He destroyed the family and now he wants to chat about it? No! That's what therapists and pastors are for. He needs to do that work himself!

Think of the stereotype of the psychiatrist saying, "Hmm." You can be that if you must allow these conversations to occur.

Remember, the D is a business arrangement. It's about property, not love or care or faithfulness. At least in most states. Don't try to stop it for the sake of saving your M. Your actual M is a separate matter. Your H knows you are open to his return. You don't have to keep trying to remind him, and he has to work for it when he's ready, if that day ever comes.

[Eagle3]

Hi, Eagle -- Sending you lots of love!

Hi Gerda, so nice to hear something from you! Hope you are doing well and sending lots of love back your way!!!

It looks to me like you are doing a lot of heavy lifting for you H. Trying to fix his relationship with your kids or explain his behavior. Thinking about pointing out truths to him to shift his course. I know you don't see it that way but for someone like me who went completely dark, it really looks like you are still tied to that in many ways.

I really appreciate your opinion, but TBH, indeed, I don't see it that way. As long as he was monstering, not showing any remorse etc. I never accommodated the R between the children and him. It was also their decision at a certain point to end their R with their Dad.

This created a huge awakening for him.

Yes, he destroyed the family and has given trauma's to the children and to me which will never be forgotten. I have gone dark a few times over the past 3 years when I couldn't handle his behavior anymore, but that was more for me, to prevent me from going downhill the same way he did.
I don't have the need to go dark currently though.

The past few weeks H is really trying to fix the R with his children and he asked me to support him with that.

He has been talking openly about his behavior of the past years and knows he has been very wrong.

I know talking is not enough, the actions must be there as well and therefore I was very cautious in the beginning but but since I also see the actions and the way he currently handles his R with his children I can only support this.
It's not that I'm trying to fix his R with his children, he needs to do that himself, but if he asks to talk about certain things I simply answer his questions and then we try to come to a possible solution that works for all parties. As long as this can be done in a gentle and a polite way, I don't see why I would not support this.

Is it possible this will shift again, of course, and I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean that I don't have to apply the unconditionals now. When it seems to go again in the other direction I will immediately go back to what I did before that.

Remember, the D is a business arrangement. It's about property, not love or care or faithfulness. At least in most states. Don't try to stop it for the sake of saving your M. Your actual M is a separate matter. Your H knows you are open to his return. You don't have to keep trying to remind him, and he has to work for it when he's ready, if that day ever comes.

Here I fully agree with what you are saying. These are two separate things. It is simply because I regularly get expectations again (heart thinking) but I know I better follow what I've started (mind thinking)

Have a great day dear Gerda!!

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

I am glad thoughts regarding OW2 have lessened.

Sorry to see S17 having difficulties. Yes, MLC and divorce has many casualties among the innocent bystanders.

Apparently he's been having a lot of difficulties with his F's behavior lately. When he showed heavy MLC behavior he struggled with that for a long time, but then gave it a place, after all it has been going on for 3 years, but now that H has been awake for several weeks, it is difficult for him to take a position on how to deal with it.

Recall it took son time to come to terms with Dad’s MLC behaviour. And it will take time to understand and come to terms with Dad’s current behaviour and his path of flipping and flopping until it becomes permanent, if it indeed does.

Uncertainty is a difficult facet of life we all come to terms with. Kids and young adults are changing and rebelling and testing. They especially test their parents, to see if they will be there for them. Son hopes and wants to hope regarding Dad, yet has valid reservations. It makes perfect sense not wanting to risk heartache again. Betrayal is a tough thing to move forward from.

And that is one of the biggest thing with kids and all this mess. They are kids and still maturing. Their emotions are young and they do not let go with a well-developed emotional understanding. Heck, it takes us years to figure this out too.

He is also having a hard time with the impending divorce. He doesn't understand that I'm giving up, after 3 years of fighting for the M, and now that H is finally making progress, the D is on the program. He cannot understand that either.

The strange thing is that I actually have the same feeling in many areas. So you can see how strongly children experience all of this, especially when they are older and aware of what is going on.

The path at times is very counterintuitive and does feel and appear wrong until one realizes it actually isn’t.

If I may, it is not understanding that is what S17 is struggling with the most. It is empathizing.

Empathy is an emotionally mature quality. Something that one usually gains command of later after adolescence. Teenager are busy being heathy teenagers and their intellect is the major growth area.

S17’s non-understanding is more a lack of emotional understanding or lack of empathizing with you. Not all that shocking, how many 17 year old boys know what it feels like to be a Mom going through a divorce.

This is also similar for you. You haven’t divorced before from a MLCer that might be awakening. We all don’t know what or how to feel during first times of anything.

I told S17 that I'm not giving up, but that most likely the reason for his awakening is actually the fact that he is starting to realize he is losing everything. I also told him that his F wanted the D, he only didn't want to arrange anything. Then there is the fact that there is only progress in H's behavior towards reconnection with the kids, not towards me and S has difficulties to understand this. I told him that this could take a long time, and possibly will even never happen again. But that what is happening now is maybe the way forward, even if it involves a D.

Good. The best way to alleviate son’s questions and concerns is through discussion. And son will lead at whatever pace he needs and ask age appropriate questions. Just got to remain calm, be factual, not demonized his father, and so on.

First he expresses this in frustration, this goes from making nonchalant remarks or showing arrogant behavior, both in school and at home, then he starts telling step by step what is wrong.

Oh, I see you have a seventeen year old boy living at home.

He is expressing himself, rather healthily methinks. It’s when it remains bottled up I’d start getting concerned.

S17 tells you step by step what is wrong. This is wonderful! Don’t fret about his path to eventually getting to that point. He is after all a rebellious teenager. And you are one of his trusted loved figures he needs to test and rebel against. Oh my goodness, adolescence is such a pain. Lol.

Yes, I do still want reconcilliation if H is becoming his new self. The one I see currently I really like but I don't want to push him away with reconnection or reconcilliation talks. I think he is the one who needs to start showing his interest, or do I see this wrongly?

That view is right on the money.

H needs to approach reconnection and/or reconciliation. He needs to. As much as he was driven and needed to run, he has to find the need and drive to return. And that will start with a tiny whisper of doubt within him.

You have already seen his doubting of his path. And you have seen him revert back and run a bit. Like a teenager testing you, he is ensuring you are not going to yell or turn on him. He is growing and is looking for assurance and acceptance.

Like a timid squirrel H will bolt if pushed or frightened. He is becoming stronger and is remaining in the moment longer and longer.

Be patient, keep moving forward, be that lighthouse / role model, and H might just decided to catch up.

Somebody gave me the advice to gently ask H if it was not better to put the D on hold for a while, since he is making progress. I have my own opinion, and would like to know yours if possible.

I think it not a good idea for you to ask to put the divorce on hold while H is demonstrating this awakening and making palpable progress. Although I do have other considerations I’d explore.

My reasoning, like everything, is for you.

Unless I missed the mark, you’d like to slow down the divorce to explore just how awakened H actually is.

Now, H’s awakening is quite likely from the very real loss he is feeling. The impending divorce is a big part of that. I’d not remove that, just maybe slow it a bit. Again, to be clear, this is not manipulation of H, this is because of you wanting to do all you can to save your marriage. This is an action for you, not a reaction to H’s behaviour.

A quick caveat, if you need financial protection or security proceed with the divorce. Of course, three years in you got things well sorted out. I think your need is rather mute at this point, as you’ve already covered all your bases.

So, IMHO, reconciliation talks could be an interesting avenue that you could explore. Tread carefully! Very limited pushing and prodding.

If this is an idea you’d like to explore, first make a list of items, responses, demonstrated behaviours, and such that you’d need to see to realize H is moving in the correct direction. Do this before any conversations and while rational and logical. Some small steps or series of steps that would be indicative of wanted progress. And, if possible, what is behind H’s movement. Internal awakening or due to external forces? That kind of thing.

You may slow the divorce process if you wish. I’d not stop it, and depending upon timelines may not even slow it down. That being said, depending upon H’s behaviours, and consistency, and your assessment of his steps, you have right up until you sign the dotted line to stop the divorce.

Currently, H is willing to settle and purchase the house. And he appears to be rather amicable. That may change.

Therefore, explore his awakening, yet continue with the divorce. Anything short of Godly remorse, dumping OW2, and truly significant behaviour change doesn’t have H hitting rock bottom. And he needs to hit rock bottom.

As you correctly stated, H needs to come to you with reconciliation desire and demonstrated behaviour. To start showing interest. And he ain’t there yet. So, no need to for you change your rational path. As much as it feels differently.

D

[Eagle3]

His awakening still continues.

In the meantime he has been back in the country where he currently lives for 2 weeks and he is really not doing well.
He realizes more and more what has happened in recent years and depression has once again taken the upper hand, but in a different way from what I saw in the passed, much more realization now, not playing victim anymore as he used to do when depressed.
He is very unhappy there and I suspect that he might lose his job. (luckily he gets a huge severance pay when that happens)
He has moments when he is still very withdrawn and angry, but these are very short-lived, especially when I talk to him about it, he allows that now.
His cycling between the different phases is present in unseen speed. (excited, angry, withdrawn, childish, depressed)
It's so obvious that I can recognize it even from such a distance just from the messages he sends to the kids and me.
The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.

Late last week it had unseen heights (suicidal tendencies) that prompted me to tell him to return to his homeland immediately to be closer to us and the family.
He listened to this and will return this week.
This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.
Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this. I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.

I have followed the advice given to most people here and so I made clear rules and forwarded them to him.
This goes from open communication, treating me and the children with respect, indicating if something is not going well in a respectful way, to the division of the household tasks, not drinking, as well as psychiatric help.
For the latter I have given him some time until he is ready for it himself, the rest will be with immediate effect. He has agreed to everything.

If he does not follow one of the above agreed rules, he has to go to a hotel.

I also have everything in writing.

Nothing was discussed about the D, everything continues for the time being. The agreement will still be signed mid-December as planned.

Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.

Thanks.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

It certainly appears that H is experiencing a significant internal shift. This will be as disorienting to him (and you) as much as when he first shifted into running. The speed between emotional states - excited, angry, withdrawn, childish, depressed - is still much beyond his rational influence. Perfectly normal progress, and rather healthy steps towards healing (not stuck running is a good thing). There will be a length of time as he finds himself and becomes comfortable in his own skin. And there will likely be falls and setbacks.

Impending holiday festivities is a common driver for crisis individuals to peek out of the tunnel. In H’s case it’s propelling him along his awakening path. This type of pressure is a good thing for an MLCer. It is mostly self-regulated and does not come from the LBS.

It is a very good sign to see H letting go playing the victim. Remaining on that trajectory will certainly be beneficial for him. Let’s hope he does.

Late last week it had unseen heights (suicidal tendencies) that prompted me to tell him to return to his homeland immediately to be closer to us and the family.
He listened to this and will return this week.

A nice compassionate response by you. Your heart is in the right place.

The depth of depression an MLCer will experience is incredible. Like their at first unrealized pain and trauma(s), their depression is dark and all enveloping. They will be consumed by it, and they need to work through it.

That level of depression brings tendencies - really more thoughts and feelings than actions; more imagined than crafted into real. These tendencies are normal and seldom followed through. The ones that usual follow through are the ones who do not speak about their tendencies. We do not know they are feeling suicidal. For those who we do know - one’s who have shared - the risk is lower.

H listening and accepting your offer to return home is interesting.

The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.

Do you mean you’ve never experienced this with H for the entire marriage or more just MLCer H?

Either way shows an interesting growth on H’s (and your) part.

Everything in life, including any possible resolution of marital strife (yes, even MLC), requires effective communication. Both a willingness to listen/hear, and the ability to find a way to translate your intended message for the target recipient. It looks like you and H have a bridge somewhat built now. Strengthen it. (Gently )

This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.

How long did you give him or expect him to be under your roof? (Unmet expectations and all. Do realize and keep them at zero.)

Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this.

Do not make life altering decisions based upon feelings.

I do get why you are doing what you are doing. However, does this better capture your “feelings”?

- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like think I have to do this.

Or better yet.

- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like believe I have to do this.

While clarifying, it’s not the risk you are trying to acknowledge/justify it’s the consequences. And that little word “but” is pretty indicative of contrary ideals being smushed together.

Is this a statement you can say?

- There is a chance of some undesirable consequences which I am willing to accept.

Thoughts, beliefs, convictions, and realization. Make your decisions based upon them. By the way, I do believe you are leading your decisions-making properly; you’re just running it through your emotional filter to see how you feel about it. And that is the risky part.

I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.

Nicely done stating the boundaries. And even in writing. That does, hopefully, illustrate H’s willingness to adhere to them.

Telling H what he needed, although went over well, is not generally a good idea. Yes, you may actually know what he needs. Problem is, he needs to discover what he needs. Or perhaps learn to articulate it. For example, H coming to you and requesting to be close to his children.

Remember MLCers are not like us LBS actively looking for betterment and enlightenment. They will eventually get to that phase after depression and withdrawal.

Anyhow, no big deal, this is after all a strange path. One which you are walking really well.

Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.

First, let’s tackle the elephant in the room. The divorce/separation agreement still planned to be signed mid-December and living under same roof and surrounded by love and children and happy Christmas joy. Certainly, some cake and eating it too.

Eagle, I completely support you and I’m confused. I’m pretty rational, imagine how H views this.

I think you want to delay signing the divorce. That’s ok. Actually, given all that is going on, perhaps it’s even better.

H could have come back to home country and stayed in a hotel and only visit during the day to be close to children. Your hopeful arrangements beckon a different outcome than divorced. Might as well have the actions match the words. Delay signing until February. Then reassess.

Now, to be clear, this is risky! However, life is full of risks. And consequences. And benefits.

The pressure of divorce is undoubted propelling H. If he signed and all that was awaiting was your signature… Hmmm. I don’t like the Sword of Damocles hanging over H’s head. Or anyone’s. Fear is not a good, nor lasting, influence for behaviour modification or growth.

A delay should probably be openly discussed and agreed upon. You could, and should, tell H why you are proposing to delay. His demonstrated behaviour.

Positive reinforcement is a good influence for lasting behaviour change. H is demonstrating positive behaviour. (I am figuring there are no OW’s in the picture. If there are, scratch all this.)

As I’ve stated before, this is all for you. Your very question of how to deal with this new unknown territory shows you are not wanting, or ready, to be “divorced and done”. Of course, “done” was not your path. Not yet anyhow. Perhaps H needs to hear that. Perhaps you needed to hear that.

Some advice on how to deal with certain things because it will be completely new to you. Well, your path is not new to you. Keep walking it.

We all make choices and learn from them. The future is unknown and all one can do is the best they can.

H is demonstrating some really positive signs. Your desire has always been reconciliation. There is an opportunity before you. Take it. Gently and slowly. See where it goes. You’ve got plenty of time.

Now that the elephant is dealt with, dealing with H and his awakening. Dig for patience! And then dig some more!

Oh my, at times H is going to appear to progress maddeningly slow. Even appear stopped. People’s progress is internal and only some of it externally shows until later on.

You do you. Keep walking your path. Live, love, be compassionate, be kind, forgive, etc… H will catch up. Look at what he has done so far. More importantly, look at what you’ve done!

Do not go backwards. You love the new and improved and wiser and stronger you. And that is attracting H. However, that is just a bonus, your primary goal and purpose was and is you.

A few certain things that will pop up. H will be moody. He will be depressed. He will withdrawal. Let him. He needs to traverse his emotions and find acceptance.

Communicate openly and honestly. That doesn’t mean telling everything upfront and overwhelming H. Let him lead the pace. You will have to often bite your tongue.

You have questions for him. Answers will come. Do not push. In fact, once (if) you two get to that point those questions/answers actually won’t be as pressing anymore.

Remember, as things come up with H, it’s ok to take time to consider a response or action. To tell him, let me think about that for a bit.

You are doing really well Eagle.

D

[Eagle3]

The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.

Do you mean you’ve never experienced this with H for the entire marriage or more just MLCer H?
Either way shows an interesting growth on H’s (and your) part. D

Interesting question to ask. Haven’t thought about that.
Never anymore while in MLC. Before that he did but I was more of the listener and him more the talker but that definitely changed from my side, seems him as well.
I will follow your advice and strengthen this gently.

This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.

How long did you give him or expect him to be under your roof? (Unmet expectations and all. Do realize and keep them at zero.) D

I have not given a date as yet. I have given him the rules to follow and he knows that if these are not met he will have to go to a hotel. That has been made very clear.
I know I have to keep my expectations at zero, and I’m aware this will not be easy.
As I said before there is hope (and for me expectations and hope are still kind of linked together) but it is not that I can still be BD’d. I can live with or without him.
I definitely reached that stage for almost a year now.

Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this.

Do not make life altering decisions based upon feelings.
I do get why you are doing what you are doing. However, does this better capture your “feelings”?
- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like think I have to do this.
Or better yet.
- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like believe I have to do this.
While clarifying, it’s not the risk you are trying to acknowledge/justify it’s the consequences. And that little word “but” is pretty indicative of contrary ideals being smushed together.
Is this a statement you can say?
- There is a chance of some undesirable consequences which I am willing to accept.
Thoughts, beliefs, convictions, and realization. Make your decisions based upon them. By the way, I do believe you are leading your decisions-making properly; you’re just running it through your emotional filter to see how you feel about it. And that is the risky part. D

Damn, I have formulated it wrongly again. Not mother tongue…😊
I firmly believe this is what I have to do.
I told my mother a few days ago that I’m convinced I have to do this, as otherwise I would regret it.
So yes, I can definitely say this statement, without a doubt, I’m not a doubter at all. Never have been.

I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.

Nicely done stating the boundaries. And even in writing. That does, hopefully, illustrate H’s willingness to adhere to them.
Telling H what he needed, although went over well, is not generally a good idea. Yes, you may actually know what he needs. Problem is, he needs to discover what he needs. Or perhaps learn to articulate it. For example, H coming to you and requesting to be close to his children.
Remember MLCers are not like us LBS actively looking for betterment and enlightenment. They will eventually get to that phase after depression and withdrawal.
Anyhow, no big deal, this is after all a strange path. One which you are walking really well. D

Yes, you are right, but I know this is what he wants from what he told me the past days/weeks.
Normal H has always been a person who had difficulties formulating what he wants, definitely when it concerns emotions. He can show it but can’t express it.

Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.

First, let’s tackle the elephant in the room. The divorce/separation agreement still planned to be signed mid-December and living under same roof and surrounded by love and children and happy Christmas joy. Certainly, some cake and eating it too.
Eagle, I completely support you and I’m confused. I’m pretty rational, imagine how H views this.
I think you want to delay signing the divorce. That’s ok. Actually, given all that is going on, perhaps it’s even better.
H could have come back to home country and stayed in a hotel and only visit during the day to be close to children. Your hopeful arrangements beckon a different outcome than divorced. Might as well have the actions match the words. Delay signing until February. Then reassess.
Now, to be clear, this is risky! However, life is full of risks. And consequences. And benefits.
The pressure of divorce is undoubted propelling H. If he signed and all that was awaiting was your signature… Hmmm. I don’t like the Sword of Damocles hanging over H’s head. Or anyone’s. Fear is not a good, nor lasting, influence for behaviour modification or growth.
A delay should probably be openly discussed and agreed upon. You could, and should, tell H why you are proposing to delay. His demonstrated behaviour.
Positive reinforcement is a good influence for lasting behaviour change. H is demonstrating positive behaviour. (I am figuring there are no OW’s in the picture. If there are, scratch all this.)
As I’ve stated before, this is all for you. Your very question of how to deal with this new unknown territory shows you are not wanting, or ready, to be “divorced and done”. Of course, “done” was not your path. Not yet anyhow. Perhaps H needs to hear that. Perhaps you needed to hear that. D

I have difficulties answering this part. I simply don’t know yet if I want to delay the D, and I definitely don’t know what he wants and for this you need to be with 2.
Yes, my desire has always been reconciliation, but this with an H that suits me, can make me happy, treat me with respect and loves me, in short someone who I want to be with, not the MLC H.
This one I don’t want anymore. I still want to be there for MLC H in a certain way but not stay married to him.
If I see he is trying and there is progress, even when it is slow, I would certainly be patient and try to delay the D, but this is not only up to me.
This is also his decision, and until now we haven’t talked about that yet.
This will become clear in the coming weeks.

Would you, in my case, start the conversation about delaying when there is progress noticeable, or would you let him lead (which I think he won’t)?
What if he says, “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”
I want to be prepared.

[Eagle3]

Oh yes, forgot to mention important item. No more OW.
You know I have never known what kind of R they had but this might have to be processed as well.
I'm aware this can have an effect on his behavior. (depression)