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Hello Andrew

I haven’t popped in on this side of the board for a while. Been busy with work and kids visiting and whatnot. Thought I drop in and see what you’ve been up to.

Certainly plenty of commotion over here.


Dunning-Kruger effect. Really Andrew?

Originally Posted by AndrewP
I've occasionally referred to this place as a "diary with hecklers".

Heckling? Purposeful aggressive comment designed to interrupt and jeer? You and I have very different views it would seem.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
I often wonder if some of these people behave like they do here in real life…

The same beliefs guide me here and in real life. Compassion and forgiveness are more than words on this screen. So, yes. I’m me.

Are you you?

Better online? Worse online? Or same online?

Originally Posted by AndrewP
A lot of people have gotten wrapped up in the fact that the two women I dated were just separated and not fully divorced.

Your girlfriend and fiancé were both grown women and made their own choices. You also made your choices.

I know you’ll recall my illustrating how you filled in the role of OM from the other side’s point of view. A still married women dating another man.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
What do I want though? I still don't really know what I want that I don't already have. Companionship would be nice. Some friendly booty from time to time perhaps. I know that I'm again deep if not deeper into a rut than I was before.

I believe in you Andrew. I seriously do.

I also believe you do not want a relationship that follows those two examples. You do not want to hurt anybody. You are an honourable man.

I am sorry you see yourself in a deeper rut than before. Perhaps, if you don’t want anything that you don’t already have, don’t look for it. Be single. Embrace it. Find your way out of your rut and back to solid level ground with clear horizons and headings.

When you can see to the horizon in all directions you’ll have a much better view of all that is possible. I’m pretty confident you’d find your answers rather easily then.

Just some nonprofessional care from a friend.

D


Now: Me54 XW50 S24 S23 S21 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello BL

WAS, walk away spouse. They walked away from their marriage, their families, their responsibilities, their vows. WAS are not emotionally healthy people. These are not folks from an amicably agreed separation/divorce. These are self focused, this is my time, I don’t care who gets hurts, people trying to escape an often irrational and emotional prison of self.

Can they be healthier and date / marry successfully sooner than the LBS? No way. A true WAS will have issues, problems, drives that they need to work through, and then resolve all the damages they caused, and then reconcile where their new life is at, and so on.

That being said, some LBS do get mired on their path and get stuck. Some for a very long time. So yes, it is possible a few WAS find healthy and wholeness before their left behind spouse. Still, generally speaking the WAS has a head start, yet they got a whole lot more ground to cover.

D

I disagree slightly DnJ... sounds like you are describing a wayward spouse. In which case I agree completely with the above. They are damaged and in a lot of cases need more time than the LBS to recover and form healthy relationships (if they ever do)

A WAS is a bit different. A WAS tries for a period of time to get through to their partner that their needs are not being met. I think they actually might have a great deal of self awareness and might even want the marriage to work but their partner is simply not up to the task. Here is what MWD describes as a WAS in an article I found:

MWD "uses the phrase (WAW) to describe women who give up on unsatisfying marriages to emotionally inept and hard-to-reach husbands."

I think, based on the quote above, we have more examples of WAS on these boards than we initially think. Not saying they are majority, but based on stories I read here, I think this scenario is not uncommon. I can think of a few cases were I am almost positive the above is the case rather than a spouse going a-wall.

I think an actual WAS might have the head start and not as much ground to cover compared to a LBS. But agree, a WW/WH has a whole lot of ground to cover.

I think it is an important distinction even if most think it is semantics.

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Originally Posted by pinn
I disagree slightly DnJ... sounds like you are describing a wayward spouse. In which case I agree completely with the above. They are damaged and in a lot of cases need more time than the LBS to recover and form healthy relationships (if they ever do)

A WAS is a bit different. A WAS tries for a period of time to get through to their partner that their needs are not being met. I think they actually might have a great deal of self awareness and might even want the marriage to work but their partner is simply not up to the task. Here is what MWD describes as a WAS in an article I found:

MWD "uses the phrase (WAW) to describe women who give up on unsatisfying marriages to emotionally inept and hard-to-reach husbands."

I think, based on the quote above, we have more examples of WAS on these boards than we initially think. Not saying they are majority, but based on stories I read here, I think this scenario is not uncommon. I can think of a few cases were I am almost positive the above is the case rather than a spouse going a-wall.

I think an actual WAS might have the head start and not as much ground to cover compared to a LBS. But agree, a WW/WH has a whole lot of ground to cover.

I think it is an important distinction even if most think it is semantics.

Interesting responses from you both Pinn and DnJ. BAsed on my experience and others who seemed to have experienced the same thing. I know, in my case at least, my STBXW probably falls in the middle. She had certainly been through the WAS stage as you quoted from MWD, but then she progressed to a Wayward like person. Lying, cheating, etc.

Perhaps it depends on the quality of the person's baseline character as to whether they progress from a WAS to a WW/WH. I know from my mum's experience, she had the characteristics of a WAW but never showed any of the behaviours of a WW, she waited 15 years before starting a new R (that I knew of anyway).


Me: 40 W:41
T: 14 M: 11
S: 5

BD & OM Jun 2020
W moves out Aug 2020

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You are right pinn, I was thinking wayward even though I typed walk away. Thank you for correcting and clarifying. WAS vs WW/WH is an important distinction.

Apologies for any confusion.


Now: Me54 XW50 S24 S23 S21 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

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Quite a bit of philosophy generated recently on here and on CW's thread. Interesting reading. Can't say as I agree with everything but that's no surprise to anyone.

Part of my disagreement is that the pool of people in the discussion has a built-in bias because the greater majority are LBS like myself.

Certainly I will agree that when my divorce agreement was finalized that it was certainly a kick in the feels that took me some time to recover from even though I knew it was coming. It was the culmination of a journey where I felt that I had failed. On the other hand, getting the actual piece of paper was a relief and a feeling of freedom.

But that was my lived experience and not that of others. Like many here, I strove beyond the bounds of what many around me felt was rational to hang on to a marriage that was over long before I admitted to that fact.

Does that mean that I was in a position to form a healthy relationship with someone else prior to that demarcation point of having the agreement in hand? For me, probably not. But that is my own opinion about me. I cannot speak for others including my XW who had an actual negative gap / overlap in her relationships. Is her relationship with OM healthy? No clue. I do know of couples who did start relationships that way who are going strong years later - not that that I'm an advocate of that. Given that I have a certain soft and squishy-ness to me, I do hope that my XW is doing well in her chosen life despite my occasional darker wishes for karma to pay her a visit. I have no knowledge of her situation but the fact that she and OM have bought a house together and are still going nearly 6 years later does say something.

I think that for any person who is arriving on the doorstep of a new life with a new partner, that the baggage that accompanies them has to be taken into account. For those who are struggling with their past, that baggage is disorganized and can create problems and chaos. Some people though are very good at compartmentalizing and dealing with that. I know that in my case that one of the dichotomies I struggled with was how my then wife was able to seemingly manage just fine with a husband on one side and OM on the other as seemingly two separate things - not that I have any understanding of how her mind works. I do know that cognitive dissonance can be a coping mechanism. I certainly used it.

---

Not much to report here. We had another bank of nasty storms roll through last night that involved me only getting about 5 hours of sleep as the power to my CPAP machine failed and came back. Such storms this late in the season are unusual here.

Work has been busy. One of my colleagues who happens to be a Sikh has invited me to his house-warming party and I'm trying to figure out if gifts are appropriate and if so, what I should bring. I asked an Indian friend - who is Muslim and not Sikh and he's given me some ideas. Gift cards was his opinion which is at odds to my normal. Normally I would bring food - ideally something home-made. But that's my culture.

The discussion on CWarrior's thread about smooching has been entertaining. My XW was certainly not a French kisses sort of person. Absolutely no exploring of tonsils or molars. It was good - I enjoyed those times with her. We were consistent, on target and there was always a true warmth in the exchange. She used to insist I kiss her good-bye every morning when I went for work even though most mornings it involved me waking her up do do that which I hated doing because she worked hard too.

In the limited dating experience I have had, I've tried to keep up but perhaps I'm just an ole' grandpa who thinks that there's more artistry and creativity involved than trying to emulate a tunneling machine. And even though I still have all my own teeth, I don't want to end up wondering whose I've ended up with after crazy


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Quite a bit of philosophy generated recently on here and on CW's thread. Interesting reading. Can't say as I agree with everything but that's no surprise to anyone.

Part of my disagreement is that the pool of people in the discussion has a built-in bias because the greater majority are LBS like myself.

Certainly I will agree that when my divorce agreement was finalized that it was certainly a kick in the feels that took me some time to recover from even though I knew it was coming. It was the culmination of a journey where I felt that I had failed. On the other hand, getting the actual piece of paper was a relief and a feeling of freedom.

I know for a fact that the finalization of our divorce drove my exh bonkers. The reality of what he'd put in play hit him, hard. He admitted to me that he didn't want this, had never wanted it. It was even more ugly than his leaving. So, no, I don't believe that LBS are the only ones needing a time out on relationships post D being finalized. It hits both people. A monumental loss has occurred, regardless of who initiated it. That loss requires time and space. Rebounds are not pretty, even if someone ends up in a LTR with the rebound person.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
H moved out 4/24/15
D Final 12/23/16

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I swear, bttrfly is going to take out a restraining order on me for stalking, but ditto bttrfly as always. The LBS, which many of us are because we clearly want to put in the work while the WAS didn't, are not the only ones who need a reset. I think the difference, at least from my view, is the WAS don't think they NEED a reset. My XH made all sorts of declarations about how he was living for himself for the first time in his life and not going to worry about making anyone else happy and all other sorts of related musings, but at the end of the day, he couldn't make it on his own and went straight from me to his OW and married her. Now, he's in rapidly declining health, he's isolated from his girls and grandchildren because he moved up north to be with OW and for whatever reason, she's not hot on the trail of moving here like he originally thought she would be. Big shocker, but suburban Boston girl doesn't want to move to podunk Arkansas, population 1000 (and that includes 500 coon dogs). I don't really care if he is happy or not at this point, because he's become a non-entity to me, but from all of the inklings I hear from the girls (I do NOT ask, but they tell me stuff anyway, mainly when they are venting about how upset they are with him about various things) he's not any happier now than he was in the last stages of our marriage, so at some point, he's going to have to wake up and see that maybe the problem isn't solely on the other part of the equation but part of it rests in HIS lap. I don't know.......I just think WAS need that time too, but many of them are too caught up in what they are doing to realize it.


Me 51, H53
Bomb drop 9/29/2014
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
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no restraining order for you Dawn. Just a chuckle and a hug


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
H moved out 4/24/15
D Final 12/23/16

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Originally Posted by Dawn70
My XH made all sorts of declarations about how he was living for himself for the first time in his life and not going to worry about making anyone else happy and all other sorts of related musings, but at the end of the day, he couldn't make it on his own

he's not any happier now than he was in the last stages of our marriage, so at some point, he's going to have to wake up and see that maybe the problem isn't solely on the other part of the equation but part of it rests in HIS lap. I don't know.......I just think WAS need that time too, but many of them are too caught up in what they are doing to realize it.

This.


ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19

8/17-BD
IHS: 1/17-2/19
D FILED (ME): 7/19
D FINAL: 10/20
M23 T25
OW CONFIRMED: 01/21

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Originally Posted by bttrfly
He admitted to me that he didn't want this, had never wanted it.
I never had any direct conversation with my XW that gave me any information about what she actually wanted. I know that when my "I'm done" moment came and I called her and demanded that she tell me if she was choosing me or OM she refused to answer and only cried. Prior to that she admitted to the affair and her intention to continue it but at no time did she ever say that she was never coming back. Certainly she was a classic branch-swinger in that way.

When I did my read-back to 2 years ago - which would have been when "B" had moved in to "her" house with "her" husband and "her" son I was informed by a well-meaning mutual acquaintance that her social media was full of bitterness and anger. This also coincided with the "lurking in the shrubberies" incident.

Now mind you she had lots of anger for our entire marriage that would occasionally go over into rage - but never directed at me, I just sat and listened to it and validated. She did go into a rage during the settlement negotiations that she "wasn't getting the respect she deserved" - I held my tongue that day quite hard. It certainly opened the eyes of the lawyers that she was perhaps not the meek and mousey woman with the mean and selfish husband that she was perhaps portraying. Didn't help that she had been lying to her lawyer prior to that either.

How she is now, how she feels about her situation, I have no clue. I was though surprised early yesterday morning that she cashed her monthly payment in the dark wee hours of the morning. Usually it's mid-late morning or even sometimes the next day. I have the money there as an e-transfer usually at least 2 days in advance but she only deposits it on the legally agreed to day. I will say this about her, once the agreement was in place she has been rigorous in abiding by it's pretty limited conditions.

I could speculate that she is tight on cash - she was very good at economizing, but not very good at budgeting. It was only after a very bad shock that we both worked together and I took on sole responsibility for keeping the books up to date that we got out of all consumer debt - just the year before she ran off with OM. Funny thing is that she had bragged to her friends about his money including the large insurance payout he got when his wife passed.

Not my circus, not my monkeys. 30 more payments to go and counting. Reading back what I've written - she certainly is in a situation of her making alone. Whether happy or not.

---

Had an interesting conversation with my boss the other day. He commented - after we had been talking about risk management - that he knows that he is a generally negative person and looks for things to go wrong and apologized for that. He is tough to work for because being wrong is something I seem to be a fair bit.

Another crazy day here - time to get back to it.

I had a take-a-way lunch today and my fortune cookie said "Your dream will become reality today" - hopefully not one of the bizarre dreams I've been having lately crazy


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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