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Originally Posted by LeeChild
By the way, I have been reading this board for 2 months as well as some other good sources prior that gave good advice-- the same sort of counter-initiative philosophy as here at DB.

Good! Keep it up. There are good books out there on validation.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Other than a few failures here and there, I have remained consistent, and loving. Validating her feelings, telling her I understand but disagree and letting her know, each time that I am here, waiting any time she wants to talk-- that I strongly prefer reconciliation.

Say you validated her feelings and understanding her is great! Saying you disagree with her not so much.
W: Lee I never loved you or was attracted to you.
L: I hear you and understand you feel that way
L: I disagree you loved me and were attracted to me

Do you see how the last sentence is you saying "YOUR WRONG"?
Originally Posted by LeeChild
This was after the bomb drop back in Feb when I spent an inordinate amount of time making the best case I could to work on my issues -- not even addressing hers since I felt the best philosophy is "I go first/I can only work on me" and that I would set a loving example.

Or you could have just worked on your issues because you can only control you Lee. You can't make her change or like your changes.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I've also worked on myself physically. I went from mostly sedentary to working out EVERY day. I have lost 25 pounds, gained muscle and endurance and I look better than I have since I was 25 (I am 42). and that's for me and my health, not necessarily her although the side effect of looking better to her was possible.

That's great Lee! 25 pounds is alot. Keep working on you.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
But none of that mattered to her. And that is when she switched gears to, basically "You are ugly and boring and I never really liked you or was attracted to you and I even liked ______ better, so THERE" (which is the same way a 4th grade girl breaks up w her boyfriend, weirdly).

Yeah my guess is she's mad because you are making changes now when it's too late and you will look great for another woman. Nothing you can do about it.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So, just for context here, I know I am new to posting, and I was taking a "Parable of the Prodigal Son" philosophy to all of this, trying real hard, giving enormous space (I NEVER tried to find out where she was etc.), communicated consistently, mostly didn't lose my cool. Doing MOST of the best practice DB type stuff. but it hasn't mattered.

Unfortunately Lee by the time you find this place it's usually too late to prevent the D. That doesn't mean you can't reconcile later. That's why you don't want to burn any bridges by sending nasty emails.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So I think it's okay that I express some emotion here through some emails that I don't really plan to send but sorry if that offends some people's delicate sensibilities.

Absolutely! Most newbies actually send them first and then come here.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
When your wife runs off with a conman, savages your sex life with tales of a bald dentist from 12 years ago, then calls the cops on you in an attempt to frame you, one TENDS to get a TAD bit emotional.

I'll bet. I certainly understand why you are so upset.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I dunno-- maybe I am the crazy one.

No crazy just emotional right now. When people make decisions based on emotion there are sure to be consequences.

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Originally Posted by HaWho
Writing letters you never intend to send can be a great way to express and expel the anger. It’s so important you burn that anger off so that you can get yourself strong and healthy no matter the outcome of your relationship with her.

What resonates with me is how frequently she is talking about being bored and needing the unexpected (to the point that she is self destructive). Based on the family molestation and incest I suspect she is a chaos kid. If you aren’t familiar with this, look into it. These are adults who feel most comfortable in the same chaos that was swirling around them as children. Calm, peaceful environments are actually unsettling to them because they are unfamiliar. They misread it as boring.

Until they face it, they will create chaos because it’s familiar and comfortable.

You are doing great. Keep feeling what you are feeling. You will get through this.



Thank you so much HaWho.

Yes, of course in reading about MLC I've run into that term and it very likely applies to her. She is also the youngest of 3 sisters, the baby and simply used to getting her way. She was successful early on, always made straight A's, took herself out of that lower middle class situation, and was used to doing as she pleased for most of her adult life (and there isn't anything really wrong w that). I was always very proud of her btw.

Also, I think she sort of shined in my adoration which I was happy to shower her with constantly. I felt loved and appreciated in return so it didn't seem one sided to me. But now I am wondering if she seeks people who do this, and once she uses up that energy, she is out. I am not sure, this is speculation at this point and I want to be careful not to pathologize her clinically just because she wants a divorce from me even if I suspect some sort of venerable or covert narcissism now. But that stuff can be a bit like reading a horoscope-- we latch on to what seems to fit, and ignore what doesn't.

In some ways she probably feels she really tried this and thought she wanted this traditional sort of life at the point that we got married, but it turns out she did not.

Quote

You have read about MLC. There is a triggering event or events that usually occur around 18-24 months before bomb drop. Events that are significant to the person. A marriage, a death. Things of that nature.


DnJ is quoted in the above

W mother died when she was 23-24. Cancer. She sort of abandoned her mother during this time. This created estrangement with the middle sister who moved back to th country to take car of the mom. The sister reached out to me and we talked about this. W was the "apple of mom's eye" but she abandoned her, out of sight out of mind, when she was sick.

W admits as much, says she was young. Had a fiancé that she broke it off with) didn't know how to handle her Mom's illness and how it made her feel so she just stayed away--similar to how she stayed away during our divorce. That's why I still think an affair might not be happening. Abandoning and avoiding is in her nature and in this case may not be a sign of affair (although given the other evidence it does seem likely).

Anyway -- about two years ago, my father, who adored my wife, got cancer. My wife became really close to my family and really seemed to take to being embraced by them.

But twice in a row when Dad was first diagnosed, he asked us both to visit, W agreed but when it came down to it, she said "I am tired from work why don't you go alone".

This hurt my Dad's feelings. Dad died a few months later.

This really dug at me -- but I reasoned that maybe my Dad's cancer brought back trauma from her mother. Also later on she spent a lot of time with my Mom in the hospital, so that square everything in my eyes.

Anyway, in retrospect, she is now saying this has been going on for 2 years.

Could my father's death have been a triggering event for her?

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Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D

Check out the question/comments I posed to you above.

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Originally Posted by LeeChild
Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D

Check out the question/comments I posed to you above.

Lee I would caution you not to try to diagnose her. You do not MLC because that typically runs 7-10 years.

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I wrote a letter to my XW--against the board's wishes. It did absolutely nothing. Now, I was at the point where I didn't have any expectations that it would help. Nonetheless, it was a complete waste of time. It didn't take me long to realize that I needed to put my primary focus on detaching. Thinking about and writing long letters doesn't help at all with detachment.

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Sure, your father's death might have been a trigger. My exH (who I now realize in retrospect is a narcissist) also was really scared of death and dying. Turning 40 (and later turning 50) were real triggers for him. What might he be missing out on?? Life is short!! He might never find his dream Asian wife if he doesn't hurry up and dump his loving wife of 24 years now! Something or someone else out there might be able to fill the hole in his psyche.

It can be hard to diagnose a person in crisis, but if you look back and see signs of narcissistic behavior way prior to her crisis, you may be correct.

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Hello Lee

Yes, your Dad’s death would be a likely trigger. That kind of thing brings forth just how short life is, and how we just never know how much time is truly left. Compounded for your W is her guilt of not going to see her loving father in-law. And now she can’t, which brings up even more pressure and guilt and regret and so on.

Of course, the hidden (or not so hidden) pain of her Mom’s cancer and death. And that she abandoned and ignored her Mom while she was ill. Her Mom’s death, the grief, the guilt, the regrets, were buried away for years. These were likely uncovered and became more triggers rather than being the hidden trauma(s).

I would think there is something even deeper, given her family’s history. Something from when she was younger and she did not have the emotional tools to handle it. An authority figure of some sort. She then grew up blaming and hating herself for something that really isn’t her fault. And she probably doesn’t even realize or know what that is, yet.

W did stay away from her Mom while she was ill for probably some reason.

So yes, your Dad’s death is a triggering event. The real question that is nagging at you is, what it triggered. Is this MLC? Right?

Mid life crisis has a few significant hallmarks, some of which your W is displaying. Very significant personality change. New values and behaviours. Throw morals out the window. And so on.

Depression is ever present. The MLCer will plunge into running behaviours in an attempt to drown the depression. However, in the darkness or night, alone in their bed, their demons come out and play. For no matter how far and fast they run, one cannot outrun themselves. And that is what the MLCer is trying to do. Run away - from themselves. They just don’t and cannot see it.

A pretty significant hallmark of MLC is confusion. The MLCer exhibits confusion. They flip and flop. Their attention spans are like that of a gnat. And their memory is like Swiss cheese - full of holes. There is so much turmoil ongoing in their mind, so much irrational pressures, the rational part gets shoved to the side.

Crisis people are running on their emotions. Everything is about how they feel. How something makes them feel. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they cannot handle anyone else’s feelings. That is a big reason for the no pressure advice. They just can’t handle it.

Running behaviours usually take on a rebellious, adrenaline seeking, illicit slant. And there is not much limit to just what they might try. Drugs, sex, booze, fast cars, illegal activity, and so on to name a few. MLCers have two sides to their emotion problem which they are trying to drown. The feel too much, and they feel nothing. Both at the same time.

The MLCer does a weird time travel as well. Living in their tormented past. They will recall things from long past like it was yesterday. And then spring forward to the present or some other time of torment. This particular characteristic explains some more of the “why” our own loving spouse can be so cruel and mean and destroy the marriage seemingly so easily. They are not married. They are that hurt lost little child. That young person isn’t married, doesn’t have children, doesn’t want responsibilities, etc. They know or are aware of their grown up adult life, but it doesn’t have any emotional connection to them. You have seen the indifference towards you. Have gotten the ILYBDLY speech. They are a younger version of themselves. An adolescent with the privileges, rights, and money of an adult. Little wonder they go crazy with their behaviours.

This all very confusion for us LBS. Imagine how confusion it is to the person embroiled within such a torment. I would not wish MLC upon anyone. It is terrible.

So to the question at hand. Is W lost within MLC? There are a lot of signs. You know her best, and have seen her behaviour. What do you think?

Time does provide more clues as it progresses. W will show more and more of her behaviour. Her mask and narrative will slip more and more, showing the hidden confused pain within. For example, my XW coming up on four years post BD is barely reaching out to her children. Is still crazy thin. Still behaves strangely. Has even more plants covering all the floor space in OM’s house (she over 500 now by the last estimate from son). Has three MLCer personalities living within her - the dominate one the rebellious 18 year old, the 13 year old girl, and the 7 year old child. And many other weird and strange traits.

It takes a certain amount of understanding to let go. I get that. No one just lets go without explanation. However, MLC or WAW or WAS or whatever, the facts of your present situation don’t change. Your view of your situation can and will change. Knowledge is power. Use it for good. Better not bitter.

Consider what behaviours W has exhibited. Look not to her words, look to her actions. Confused? Forgetful? Angry? Emotional? Irrational? Physical? Tell me about them. Consider how apt MLC appears or not. Then start to work to accept the unacceptable. To believe the unbelievable.

You are asking good questions and are showing a healthy inquisitive mind. Now, sharpen that mind and find your control over self. It is difficult to rationalize our spouse’s irrational behaviour. Find your strength to accept the irrationality of all this - for now. Have faith, you will learn much more as time goes on.

Let go your anger and emotions in a safe manner. Sweating them out doing yard work is a pretty good one. Running, physical work outs, whatever. Physical activity gives your mind something else to focus on; releases feel good chemicals; and uncouples your irrational ties between W and your emotions. I’ve written a lot about the path. That last one is basically training your mind. If you vent when you’re angry that reinforce those feelings. If you go for a run, your mind gets different inputs which are not those previously reinforcing ones. Poof, anger loses its grip upon you. (That was the very short version and explanation. smile )

Hope your day was good.

Stay strong Lee. You got this.

D


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Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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JUst FYI though LC- D's wife is the number one most likely to be seriously mentally ill/drug addicted WAS on the boards (and I've been here a long time and seen it all).

This generous description of factors that D laid out may be triggering your wife is certainly likely. On the other hand, if she's a narcissist, some narcissists (the sociopathic kind) would simply bow out of seeing dying relatives in the hospital because they don't like it and they don't want to do something they don't care to do. (My exH was not a sociopathic narcissist, but more of an insecure narcissist - he really really cared how he looked to others, and by extension, how his wife and kids made him look to other people. He would go see the dying relative so long as other people were going to see it, so he could play the big man. But privately he lacks empathy for the troubles his adult kids are going through, griped endlessly about it when we helped my younger brother out of a jam that was not his fault, etc. Publicly he's the great humanitarian but privately - not so much.)

Only you know, if you look back, if this was a pattern before the crisis of her only doing the things that she enjoyed, and bowing out of things you might have wanted to do. Or bowing out of things that might have required her to put herself out for other people. If any of this resonates you might want to read The Sociopath Next Door - quick and easy read.

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Originally Posted by kml
JUst FYI though LC- D's wife is the number one most likely to be seriously mentally ill/drug addicted WAS on the boards (and I've been here a long time and seen it all).

This generous description of factors that D laid out may be triggering your wife is certainly likely. On the other hand, if she's a narcissist, some narcissists (the sociopathic kind) would simply bow out of seeing dying relatives in the hospital because they don't like it and they don't want to do something they don't care to do. (My exH was not a sociopathic narcissist, but more of an insecure narcissist - he really really cared how he looked to others, and by extension, how his wife and kids made him look to other people. He would go see the dying relative so long as other people were going to see it, so he could play the big man. But privately he lacks empathy for the troubles his adult kids are going through, griped endlessly about it when we helped my younger brother out of a jam that was not his fault, etc. Publicly he's the great humanitarian but privately - not so much.)

Only you know, if you look back, if this was a pattern before the crisis of her only doing the things that she enjoyed, and bowing out of things you might have wanted to do. Or bowing out of things that might have required her to put herself out for other people. If any of this resonates you might want to read The Sociopath Next Door - quick and easy read.



Yeah that's what I am trying to figure out. If it is MLC there would be some hope, if I am willing to wait it out, continue to show love and compassion etc. No guaranteed by any means, but hope.

But with narcissistic personality, there really is no hope. There was no real "love" there in the sense that you or I think of love.

If she has that, it would be some covert/vulnerable narcissistic personality disorder. She doesn't have the overt, very manipulative version. Which makes me think, maybe I am splitting hairs here looking for a label. Depression/MLC seems very likely.

Also divorcing someone can be incredibly selfish, and so is MLC, so right now all of her behaviors so seem more narcissistic but as far as how that paints the history of the relationship, I don't want to re-write with a wave of the hand like she is doing. If I cherry pick here and there-- I can probably find a pattern but I have to weigh that fairly here.

There was also a wonderful person in there that I loved very much who by all accounts seemed to be on my "team", cared for me, was there for me in ways a person with overt malignant narcissism would or could not be.

I did see that she went to see her friend's baby the other day and I know she does not care for babies. So this would have been one as a "show". OR, I mean it all depends on how you frame things, maybe she did it in good faith to support, even though she doesn't like babies.

We all do things for social reasons sometimes in order to "do the right thing" that maybe we truly don't want to do. So what is the difference between doing it for appearances and doing it for support? I want to be fair here, we can all be REALLY selfish from time-to-time and we aren't all narcissists.

I am ruminating too much here.

In review:

Depression fueled MLC: Very likely.
Vulnerable Narcissism: possibly, very hard to discern

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