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cardinal,

Originally Posted by cardinal
That was not something I could be indifferent to. I responded that I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight with no notice and without him here, nor was I okay with someone I did not know having a key.
It's completely reasonable you would not want a person you do not know to stay in your house, especially when it's H's friend and H won't be there.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I requested advance notice and also said I was not comfortable without certain precautions because we are still in a pandemic.
I wouldn't even mention the pandemic angle - it's reasonable even without a pandemic.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Luckily I am in much better shape to understand nearly three years into this that this is more gaslighting, and though I may feel the guilt he's trying to heap on me, it's just an old reaction, not reflective of anything I am actually doing wrong.
Good!

Originally Posted by cardinal
btw his best friend might be crashing here tonight, just FYI.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight
Originally Posted by cardinal
Finally I got a couple of thumbs ups from him, but also he could not tell me how often she would be here--"randomly."
This "best friend" you don't know is a female? This seems...

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm not sure if I need to talk to my L about a roommate agreement or what.
Seems to be you'd be within your rights to refuse someone entering your house without your husband there to allow it. Not sure about when he is there - in which case you also might not what someone there - you might ask your L for advice there so you know your rights.

H did say this was all ridiculous because he's hopefully moving out soon anyway, so at least I know that's still on his mind. Though his idea of "soon" is usually very different than mine (see: BD 2019).

Originally Posted by cardinal
Maybe he's just got to blow up at me a few more times on his way out the door. If anyone has any good reminders/mantras on how to stay strong through the next leg of this, I'm all ears.
He's acting with extreme disrespect. Take the initiative and back up his stuff for him and show him the door. Looking back I wish I had acted stronger in the beginning (as do many of us here).

Originally Posted by cardinal
One more note to say I think it helped that I was reading about fierce self-compassion last night and about saying no. Yet I am still picking apart all of the words I chose and wondering if I could have chosen better ones, if I could have seemed even calmer. That is not exactly fierce self-compassion. I am pleased that I said “This is not okay” rather than “you can’t….”
Good to be reflective and work on it, but also...

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am also reminding myself that even if I said the perfect thing perfectly, objectively phrased, whatever that would be in this scenario, it wouldn’t matter.
Very true.

I would get the same reaction from him. Still working on getting sucked into trying to control for his reactions, I suppose, but I am more aware of that than I once was.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I’ve learned so much about myself through IC and reading and meditation and from this board and friends in the last few years, and I am grateful for all the growth that has come from this experience, grateful for a lot of things that at one point I couldn’t imagine being grateful for.
Awesome! :-)

Hang in there...


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
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Good job standing up for yourself. Indifference in appropriate situations, i.e. the small and semi-small stuff, will usually carry the day ... This was not that kind of a situation, and you handled it beautifully.

I think BL has a point. I apologize Cardinal, I'm somewhat out of the loop on the current state of affairs with your sitch, so I hope this isn't something you've already stated -- can you kick him out? What's the current status? I gather he said he'd leave and now has excuses to stay?

Is is worthwhile to contact your lawyer, explain the current sitch and kick him out? This is mental abuse.

We come here hoping to save our marriages; well, some flat out cannot be saved. Sometimes a couple has to break apart to come back together better, stronger, and more deeply in love than before. Sometimes a couple just has to break apart, period.

Looking back at my own sitch, the mental and emotional abuse that went on from BD, through selling our family home and even after the D was so intense and constant that I'm not sure how I survived it. Certainly having him across the country every other week gave me a much needed break, and coming here was also a life saver. I do not know how you are able to live with this, and give you full props.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
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also:
Originally Posted by Cardinal
I’ve learned so much about myself through IC and reading and meditation and from this board and friends in the last few years, and I am grateful for all the growth that has come from this experience, grateful for a lot of things that at one point I couldn’t imagine being grateful for.

This resonated deeply with me.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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BL and buttrfly, thank you for the reassurance that I was indeed not overreacting. Funny how even though I knew this as it was unfolding, the doubts do rear up again. I am totally fine and have been for a while with him leaving; there’s no marriage to save, and he’d need to do a lot of internal work before he would be a good partner to anyone. Unfortunately, his name is also on the lease, and my L has informed me in the past there’s no way to remove him, short of coming to a divorce agreement, which we would be negotiating if he would share his disclosures so that we are on equal negotiating footing. Sigh. I will be reaching out to L to see if there’s anything else we can do to increase the chance things will move along. Now I need to work on shoring up my boundaries so that his angry reactions to my boundaries remain his. He can feel his feelings; I don’t want to take them on.


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Good Morning cardinal

Wow. H is certainly working to push your buttons. Well done remaining calm and not taking the bait.

You are spot on with your assessment of this scenario. It’s wildly inappropriate that H thinks having some stranger sleeping over is ok.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm glad this exchange took place over text, because I could consider my words and appear calm. I thanked him for agreeing (kicking and screaming) to my requests. I can also read the exchange to my IC or anyone and again receive reassurance that, no, haha, nothing I said was unreasonable.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am pleased that I said “This is not okay” rather than “you can’t….”

Yes, this taking place over text is a good thing. It gives you a pause to choose proper wording and, maybe more importantly, provides a record. This is not a he said, she said, situation. You have it in writing. That is extremely valuable.

Keep conversations with H to the text format as long as you can. Luckily, H doesn’t want the voice to voice conflict and is choosing texting. The finesse part of dealing with MLCers/WAS/STBXH or W is letting them think it is their idea.

I’m very proud of you. You stuck to your guns, stayed calm, and pushed back. In the end, no random stranger.

I’d speak to your L. Get it in writing who is allowed to be on the premises. And who is not.

I’d also install one of those door chain locks. You know the little brass chains that slides into place and only allows the door to be opened about 2 inches. As a person going to sleep in her house, with her H away, it is perfectly reasonable to “extra” lock the door. This is not “changing the locks” so there is no legal repercussions. I’d definitely do this.

Any random unwelcome or unannounced friend of H’s will met a door they can turn a key in, but would need to bust it down to get in. At that point, the homeowner/person on the lease, can easily call the police and things will get sorted out real quick.

Originally Posted by cardinal
That was not something I could be indifferent to. I responded that I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight with no notice and without him here, nor was I okay with someone I did not know having a key.

I think you handled this pretty indifferently.

Indifference doesn’t manifest with inaction. You did not get dragged around by your emotions (detachment). You remained clear and calm, and numb towards H’s feelings and behaviours (indifferent). You acted upon your rational thoughts. And took appropriate action.

Earlier, I stated you stuck to your guns, remained calm, and pushed back. Yes pushed back. Not enforced a boundary. Let me expanded.

A boundary is an action you would take. In this case: H, if a stranger enters my house, I’m calling the police.

Stating the boundary is like pushing back, enforcing a boundary is calling the police.

You handled it like a pro!

Now, get that door chain.

Have a great Sunday cardinal.

D


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Cardi,

So good to hear from you and grateful for the update, even if spurred on by a difficult situation. FWIW I think you are handling this all so, so well. I love DnJ's idea of a door chain for your own safety. In/re the visitor while you were home-- I also am so impressed with how you handled it. I think it probably would have felt good in the moment to introduce yourself/play loud music/etc., but probably in the long run you're closer to your goal of getting him out the way you handled things.

For those who haven't followed Cardinal, she's definitely put in the work of really understanding herself and what she needs, and FWIW I have faith that she's making the right decisions for the right reasons, even though this current situation is so difficult. She can't kick out her H and this house is extremely beneficial for a whole bunch of reasons, including its affordability. She's researched moving out and staying in her current town or moving back to her hometown, and decided to stay the current path to keep her home. (At least, this was the last I recall.) Though I do wish wish wish he would GTFO and let her start her new life in peace. And maybe at some point she'll decide that her path is better sought by moving out herself. Cardinal, do you remember to keep checking in on yourself with all of this?

BL, I would be careful not to impose your own wishes and situation upon Cardinal. You may look back and wish you had acted differently, but what is right for you may not be right for Cardinal. She's put in the time and work to understand what she needs and wants, and as she wants to keep the house and not screw up the divorce proceedings, she cannot pack up his $hit and leave it outside. Her H is not functioning with a full set of marbles, either, so cannot be assumed to respond rationally to anything. What might feel like disrespect from where you sit might not matter a whit to C because she's not emotionally attached to him anymore. In general, in these situations it seems that the more you can remove your own emotion and ego from the situation and deal with it logically, the better off you are... and packing someone's stuff and leaving it on the porch is rarely driven exclusively by rational thought processes. In my situation, I feel the exact opposite as you-- I'm incredibly grateful to this board for helping me not respond out of emotion because I was very close to throwing my H's stuff out on the lawn, and if I had we would be in a very different place right now.

Cardi, you are amazing. Sending hugs and strength your way. What are you baking these days?

xoxo May


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Cardinal,

I'm sorry you are having to continue to deal with this. Make sure to raise the safety issue with your lawyer, for it may impact your available remedies with respect to removing him. I live in a state where it is possible to get a kick-out order for a spouse/partner even in a rental situation. Perhaps this wasn't available previously because criteria for it were not met (it may also of course be that your state doesn't have such a provision, but your lawyer should be able to tell you if it makes a difference).

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may22,
Originally Posted by may22
BL, I would be careful not to impose your own wishes and situation upon Cardinal. You may look back and wish you had acted differently, but what is right for you may not be right for Cardinal.
Fair point. All of our perspectives are shaped by our own personal experiences and comments here can reflect those. It's up to Cardinal how she chooses to proceed. Just trying to lend support.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
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DnJ, I did have a pretty good Sunday! Thank you. I did some clean up in the yard and was remembering how I used to find comfort in weeding when things were crazy. smile

((may)) Wow, thank you for that recap. I think I really have done the work, and I also appreciate your reminder to keep asking the questions. That's one of the (many) things you were so good at in your sitch, always examining, always asking what it was you really wanted or needed at any given time.

BL, no worries. I do wish I would have embraced the D much earlier after BD, but I have been on my own timeline and needed the time it's taken to learn things and get where I am. I mean, I fantasize about throwing his stuff out sometimes! If only that would work (and a judge would approve).

Own, I am loving reading about your life post-D. I will have to update my L and see what she says. She did recommend we send a letter demanding disclosures within a short period, since he is well past the deadline now. She can spell out what will happen if he doesn't comply, and it'll mean filing a motion and an award of attorney fees for me. This will hopefully get his incompetent L moving.

I am fretting over the timing, whether she should just send it asap since he's already angry (the usual passive aggressive door-slamming and silent treatment, it seems). Or whether she should wait until I get back from a trip. I'm afraid of what he could do with the pets while I'm gone. I think this fear is irrational, but I feel weird not being here when all this is going down, on the heels of his getting angry about house guests. Then again, I really don't want to delay this any more!


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May,

I was looking for your last thread to post it on there but it seems you haven't got one going anymore, so sorry to put it here, but I just wanted to say that I think the support you've given on here for Cardinal is just really beautiful and genuine. This will have done her a lot of good.

@Cardinal,

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am fretting over the timing, whether she should just send it asap since he's already angry (the usual passive aggressive door-slamming and silent treatment, it seems). Or whether she should wait until I get back from a trip. I'm afraid of what he could do with the pets while I'm gone. I think this fear is irrational, but I feel weird not being here when all this is going down, on the heels of his getting angry about house guests. Then again, I really don't want to delay this any more!

As D always states, the answers will reveal itself in due time.
You'll know what to do, and it will be the right decision, at least for you it will.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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