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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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Hi all! thanks for the comments on the school, I will take it easy on him.

I had a terrible day yesterday, my best friend told me he saw W a couple of times with OM on the streets, all my friends were very shocked that it affected me a lot but I tried to not make many questions, I called my sister to relax and then went for a long walk.

When we exchanged the kids I asked W where she stood in terms of us, she gave S7 youtube on the phone and stood there telling me again that I had destroy our M for five years, that she was never going to come back to me and that she could make a mistake but her decision was final and she had accepted she was going to live a life without the father of her children there. I told her I understood her pain and frustration but I saw things differently and I still thought we could work together to get a second chance on a new M. To this she replied that she wanted a D. As we were chatting S7 came out of the car to tell her OM had called her 4 times and asking who he was.

I tried to stay calm but I lost it, I asked her who that was and why she did not have the courage to ask for a D before starting a R. She said it was just a friend, that I had jealousy issues and that for any person in her life she was not going to give me any explanations. I told her if this is how she wanted to end things it was fine for me but I never wanted this and saw S and D very differently. I stormed out with the kids and asked my sister to help me with them. I got them ready for bed and prepared the backpacks, put them to sleep after a nice story and I have spent the worst night in many months. I have not slept a bit thinking about what to do next, how to regain control of my life and how to face the fact that there is OM.

I want to file, but I am a bunch of nerves right now so I wanted to come and write here and ask for support. I have gone through hell and she keeps saying that I destroyed our M and there are consequences in the form of her lack of feelings. Sometimes I feel like I am a very sad man, all my friends keep telling me to see the evidence, move on and close this chapter of my life and yet I think about the rules, about W saying cr@p right now, about not giving up and showing my children our family is worth the fight but aside from W and her OMs. I dont compare myself with OM, I dont want to know anything about him, I just feel it is very sad this is the course of action she has decided to take after all we have lived.

I woke up today with a different mood, I had to be happy for my kids but now alone in the office all is coming back onto me. I will talk to my lawyer today, I feel like the best is to file. I know I messed up big time yesterday, I will go back to NC and my PIES. Thank you all for your support and time!

hugs! Pack


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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Oh sorry I forgot to mention in my update. W went on and on again on how I want to punish her we cannot talk about the kids. She told me the kids are number 1 for her and she wants me to get to a point where I accept we will never be together but we can talk about the kids and how things are going at home so the other can adapt. I told her I understood where she was coming from but I could not offer that and she said she was giving me the space because I still think about R. She also mentioned I dont have to change for her because she simply knows she will never be happy with me.

About those conversations and sharing everything about the kids, I feel like for my own detachment it is better not to have them. Am I being reasonable about this or should I sacrifice for the sake of the kids and try and be friends with her on that sense? I just think of her and OM and I want to be away, very far, and take my kids with me. Must be the oain speaking, I need to think about what I can control now in my sitch.

Last edited by Pack_19; 02/01/21 08:29 AM.

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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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It seems you forget everything you have read and learned under pressure. If your friends were shocked how it affected you I wonder what your reaction was in front of them. And even though you weren't near your W you still said all those things to her the moment you met her. It's as though you have been reading up on how to destroy even the slightest chance you might have on a possible future relationship with someone who leaves you.

I mean Pack, by all means go back to NC and work on you because that is all you should and can do, but please stop talking about not giving up! Please stop mentioning the rules because you break those rules over and over and over again.

Even if you had been cool, calm and collected in every interaction with her, even if you had been a perfect example on what one should do when DBing correctly, it could have taken a long time before she believed those changes and even then, as you know, she may not have changed her mind. But instead you have pushed and pressured her so many times now that I don't know what else anyone can say to you.

I really wish you the best and I am happy to hear you have friends who support you but please listen to them and move on. Forget about the one sentence you are holding on to from Sandi's list of rules "never give up". That's only applicable if you do everything else correct.


Me: 38
Stbxw: 35
No kids
Mini bd: February 6, 2019
ONS confirmed Sept 7, 2019
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Hi Pack, sorry to hear about your setback. I think this may be what we call a "trigger". Something is said or done to bring back those old feelings at the beginning of the sitch. As I recall, this has happened once before and you asked her about her intentions.

I don't fully understand just what your W wants to discuss about the kids. Unless there is something about their schedule, health, school, etc., why is it necessary? At any rate, I still feel that email is the way to handle it. At least, until you are able to emotionally let go of reconciling with her.

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Am I being reasonable about this or should I sacrifice for the sake of the kids and try and be friends with her on that sense?


Paco, don't listen to her. She always criticizes you deeply. She doesn't want to have talks about the children.....for their sakes. She wants to have the talks for her sake. Remember, since the beginning, she was the one who pushed to have regular discussions. I think she uses the kids as an excuse to keep a line attached to you, not b/c she wants to be in a MR with you, but to keep tabs on your life. It's difficult for me to explain, but I see it in WW all the time.

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I have gone through hell and she keeps saying that I destroyed our M and there are consequences in the form of her lack of feelings.


B/c you let her words affect you. She has a sharp tongue and can shred your heart. She has taken no share of the responsibility of the marriage breakdown. It's seldom all one-sided.

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yet I think about the rules, about W saying cr@p right now, about not giving up and showing my children our family is worth the fight but aside from W and her OMs.


The "rules" were written to help newcomers have some sense of direction and interaction in their sitch.

Your children are too young to know or understand about the concept of the family being worth the fight. This is your guilt talking to you, b/c you've taken 100% ownership for the M breakdown. You've taken to heart everything your W has said, except one thing. Know what that one thing is? You don't accept she is through with you and doesn't want to be in a marriage with you.

For your own sake, I hope you will let it go. I think you've done an amazing job in all areas of improving your life. Just imagine how much better you would feel if your were free from the shackles holding you to a lost dream.

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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hi BenB!

I just got sad and I guess they dont want to see me hurting. I am going to work on getting back my control and working on me. It is very hurtful to see the difference between S and D is not there and to hear over and over again that it was all your fault and that I am never going to be there because of my mistakes that have these consequences. I can focus on myself and my changes but I cannot change the fact that she is seeing OM and I need to feel the pain and let it go. I have an IC session tomorrow. I cannot believe I messed up something so important in my life.

I am going back to NC and focused on myself. I am thinking about getting the A2 license for motorbikes and I restart today my weight lifting routines. I was also thinking about reading DR again, maybe it gets me back to a healthy place.

I will do research on how to control my emotions. Should I believe what she is saying, file and move on or just be and work on getting me back to a nice and healthy place removing myself from the situation?

I know I have made many mistakes, I just wanted to save the kids and myself from all the pain we are experiencing. Thanks for bearing with me, please keep posting. I will re-read my thread today, time to dust off and stand back up.


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi Pack, sorry to hear about your setback. I think this may be what we call a "trigger". Something is said or done to bring back those old feelings at the beginning of the sitch. As I recall, this has happened once before and you asked her about her intentions.


HI Sandi! thanks for coming over! ((hugs)) I had a big one yesterday and you cannot imagine the feeling when S7 walked out of the car holding the phone as OM was calling, I wanted to just get over her on a instant but it does not work like that. S7 is too young to understand anything. When we got home I showed him the lego guitar as I finally managed to make the software work and he was very happy. I saved the day for him and S2 but what a mess on my side.

Originally Posted by sandi2

I don't fully understand just what your W wants to discuss about the kids. Unless there is something about their schedule, health, school, etc., why is it necessary? At any rate, I still feel that email is the way to handle it. At least, until you are able to emotionally let go of reconciling with her.

She means to talk about how the are doing at school, the new things they do at home, how they behave, if anything happens to them. She told me that she does not do that because she knows I think about R and hence I see the conversation as a way to get to her and I was not able to put the kids first. I had to stop her there to tell her my children were priority 1 in my life and that did not involve sharing anything with her. She also said all I had done for 1.5 years was tell her she was a lousy mom and hence I had not changed a bit. I told her sometimes I do communicate in an aggressive way, I apologized and told her I never thought anything less than she was a great mother.

Did I blow this up Sandi? I dont think OM is going to fill the void in her, I also dont think she has done the work to look into herself and take the responsibility of her part. Her words were, I have accepted the father of my children will not be in my life and that is all your fault. But again I am not the person to show her this.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Paco, don't listen to her. She always criticizes you deeply. She doesn't want to have talks about the children.....for their sakes. She wants to have the talks for her sake. Remember, since the beginning, she was the one who pushed to have regular discussions. I think she uses the kids as an excuse to keep a line attached to you, not b/c she wants to be in a MR with you, but to keep tabs on your life. It's difficult for me to explain, but I see it in WW all the time.


I also get this feeling, like as if talking to me about the kids reinforces in her head that she is a great mom and that she is doing the best to keep our children happy. How is she ever going to realize her loss if the moment she wants to talk about the kids I run there and sit with open ears? Can you explain a bit more on this keeping a tab? Why? is it not obvious to her that she is wining this battle to move on? I dont think I will ever be able to be her friend, I dont want that, I am sorry if this affects my children negatively, someday they will understand. Just today, S7 asked me why I worked from home and not in an office anymore. I told him to be closer to them, and gave him a hug.

Originally Posted by sandi2

B/c you let her words affect you. She has a sharp tongue and can shred your heart. She has taken no share of the responsibility of the marriage breakdown. It's seldom all one-sided.

Try to tell her this and she will say you are calling her a liar, you do not understand her pain and never listened to her. She told me she had cried and been unhappy for the 5 years of our marriage and I never talked to her, I am just amazed how deeply she believes all of this is true. maybe this helps her see OM without any remorse. Thanks for the comment Sandi, sometimes I need someone to remind me this.

Originally Posted by sandi2
You don't accept she is through with you and doesn't want to be in a marriage with you.

For your own sake, I hope you will let it go. I think you've done an amazing job in all areas of improving your life. Just imagine how much better you would feel if your were free from the shackles holding you to a lost dream.


And in such a short time, maybe I would be better off by thinking I did not lose anything. You should have seen the sadness in her eyes but the certainty in her words when she said "I am sure we cannot be happy together, I have tried everything" and then she said "now you see me as your W but all 5 years we were M you did not". Sometimes I think she says these things only to hurt me, why else? Can she not see I am a shade of the man I was? I swear upon the many times I have fell that I was doing a good job at GAL and NC and focusing on the kids and my changes. Then she goes off to some guy, everybody sees them because Seville is tiny and I go back to feeling like a failure. What am I doing with my life? I have worth as a man, father and husband and someone will see it. Thanks for your support!

((hugs))
Pack


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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She means to talk about how the are doing at school, the new things they do at home, how they behave, if anything happens to them.


Yeah, that's what married couples do.......have chit-chat about the kids that day. Sorry, but she wants what she wants from you and toss what she doesn't want. Maybe she feels somewhat insecure about her parenting skills, IDK. As I previously stated, I think it's just her way to keep her nose in your life....via the kids.

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I had a big one yesterday and you cannot imagine the feeling when S7 walked out of the car holding the phone as OM was calling,


I saw one of my adult children go through that experience. It's awful.

Quote
She also said all I had done for 1.5 years was tell her she was a lousy mom and hence I had not changed a bit.


She talks out of both sides of her mouth, b/c she also told you not to change for her, b/c she wasn't going back to the M. Neither of you can communicate well with each other, due to the high emotional charge. She's still very angry and takes it out on you, by blaming you for all her unhappiness. It's not your job to make her happy! It never was!

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Did I blow this up Sandi?


It depends on what you are working toward. Obviously, your conversation with her left no doubt that you are still waiting for her to decide to give the M another chance. So, if you were trying to not show your cards, you failed. Now what do you do going forward?

See Pack, you haven't let go, and until you drop that emotional rope you have tied to her.........you aren't going to be as happy as you could be if you let it go. Will it take a divorce for you to let go?

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I dont think OM is going to fill the void in her, I also dont think she has done the work to look into herself and take the responsibility of her part. Her words were, I have accepted the father of my children will not be in my life and that is all your fault.


She says the same old cr@p every time. No, she's hasn't done any work. As long as she blames you for everything, she won't see the need for her own change. She may never have a change of heart. That's the realization you need to understand.

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Can you explain a bit more on this keeping a tab? Why? is it not obvious to her that she is wining this battle to move on?


It's a strange thing about WW's. On one hand your W has contempt for you, while on the other hand she wants to keep a line attached. Women are curious and some are very nosey. If she doesn't hear through friends how you are doing or what you're doing......she'll go through the kids. She wants to know all about your personal life, and just you wait......when the kids get older, she'll be asking them all kind of questions about daddy. They are her link to find out if you are moving on, and if you are seeing another woman, or if you break down and cry in front of the kids. These are simply examples, and may not be any she would choose. If you read other threads, you'll often see the WW living with another man, yet wants to be friends with her LBH. That's what your W wants. But you can't be friends if she has such a hard heart against you.

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Try to tell her this and she will say you are calling her a liar, you do not understand her pain and never listened to her. She told me she had cried and been unhappy for the 5 years of our marriage and I never talked to her, I am just amazed how deeply she believes all of this is true. maybe this helps her see OM without any remorse.


She doesn't miss many opportunities to repeat this same old narrative. Aren't you sick of it? Let me tell you, there's some people in this world that just won't turn lose of their resentment and their version of what really happened. There's NOTHING you can do to change her mind. I've tried to tell you that you can't become good enough to win her back, b/c that's not the problem. The problem is her mindset........her hard heart. She chooses to have this mindset. Do you understand what I'm saying? She has chosen to not accept any responsibility and by blaming you for 5 years of unhappiness, she feels justified to see Om and to continue to give you hell. Hatred does terrible things to people.

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You should have seen the sadness in her eyes but the certainty in her words when she said "I am sure we cannot be happy together, I have tried everything" and then she said "now you see me as your W but all 5 years we were M you did not".


Was it sadness or something else? I'd guess it's more self pity, but I might be wrong. The things she said in this quote backs up what I said just above it. Look Pack, she is punishing you. She's paying you back for those 5 yrs. She's not going to turn lose of this attitude anytime soon.......if ever. It's her choice to hold this anger in her heart, and claim she did everything. How could she have done everything and you had no idea she was planning to leave the M? It's crazy talk.

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I swear upon the many times I have fell that I was doing a good job at GAL and NC and focusing on the kids and my changes. Then she goes off to some guy, everybody sees them because Seville is tiny and I go back to feeling like a failure.



Do you want to know what you did wrong? You GAL, went NC (sort of), and made changes to win your W back. That's why you feel like a failure when she turns to OM. This entire time you've done all this hard work for one reason..........to get your W back. You missed all the times we tried to tell you that it won't work if your motivation is to win her back. You GAL, NC, focus on kids, etc.......... for Pack. It's for Pack's happiness and betterment.......b/c you can't be good enough to win someone who refuses to like you. You just can't. You become a slave to the endeavor of changing for them. How exhausting that must be for you!

Until you give it up and genuinely live your life the way you want........you will remain a slave to the past mistakes. As long as you seek validation from your W, you will feel a failure. Why are you giving her that power to determine those things in your life? Okay, so she feels you were a lousy H. That's her problem at this time. You can do nothing about the past. You certainly can't change her mind. It's up to her. So, leave it alone and move on with having a life that pleases you.

I believe you misunderstood some of the techniques of DBing from the start, and I haven't been able to get you to see differently. So how do you think you can get her to change how she thinks?

You can't work on this MR b/c it's dead and the two of you are living separate lives. All you can do is work on your life without her. Until you understand that point, I don't think there is hope for a R. You have to let her go.

DBing is not a guarantee of saving the M. Nothing is a guarantee, b/c there are two people who have free volition.


((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted by sandi2

Yeah, that's what married couples do.......have chit-chat about the kids that day. Sorry, but she wants what she wants from you and toss what she doesn't want. Maybe she feels somewhat insecure about her parenting skills, IDK. As I previously stated, I think it's just her way to keep her nose in your life....via the kids.


Hi Sandi, as always your advice gives me both strength and a slap of reality. Thank you for taking the time to write this post. I will process it deep inside my head. This is exactly how I feel about these conversations, is something you have when you are married. She continues to claim I never talked to her when we were married and honestly I am starting to believe it is true. Was I too focused on my career and making money? did I miss on having bed chats with her? Is that because I was not happy or because our marriage was lacking? I know these questions dont help me, all I can do is become a better communicator and I am working on that day and night.

Originally Posted by sandi2

I saw one of my adult children go through that experience. It's awful.


I lost it, my heart went race mode and I started asking her who that was and how she could have the moral to start a relationship before we are divorced (10 points for old Pack...). I must have looked like a desperate idiot. I am going running now before starting work to get my head in a better place. This will not happen again, I need to be a rock for my children.

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She talks out of both sides of her mouth, b/c she also told you not to change for her, b/c she wasn't going back to the M. Neither of you can communicate well with each other, due to the high emotional charge. She's still very angry and takes it out on you, by blaming you for all her unhappiness. It's not your job to make her happy! It never was!


I am learning a lot about this now, meeting my own needs and being happy in a way that I do not depend on any external input to be happy, complete and to have a clear mission in life. She told me I do not put my children first, and that is what she expects from me. I spent yesterday afternoon 3 hours at the doctor to get a vaccine for S2 because we have made a mess with paperwork after W came running back from Germany and I have lost track of many things during the time I was still there and she came to Spain with both children (what a mistake btw, S7 has forgotten everything about Munich and I came here thinking I could get my M back only to see W with OM now, how could I be so stupid and naive... I will learn for the future)

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It depends on what you are working toward. Obviously, your conversation with her left no doubt that you are still waiting for her to decide to give the M another chance. So, if you were trying to not show your cards, you failed. Now what do you do going forward?


I have been thinking about filing, giving up and moving on. I approached her with the idea of seeing where she stands but it is very clear now. I never meant to hide any cards, the day I start rebuilding my life, the day I cut on alimony to fair levels, I file for D with the conditions I want and I take control over Pack's life, that day I will close the door to her. I wanted to check what to do with that door, probably because I am still attached. Not only did I get an answer, I got to see OM call her, which will fuel my GAL power, for me.

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See Pack, you haven't let go, and until you drop that emotional rope you have tied to her.........you aren't going to be as happy as you could be if you let it go. Will it take a divorce for you to let go?
I think so, my sister told me yesterday she cannot wait to see me ask for D, she says it is as if I needed that to finally move on.

Quote

It's a strange thing about WW's. On one hand your W has contempt for you, while on the other hand she wants to keep a line attached. Women are curious and some are very nosey. If she doesn't hear through friends how you are doing or what you're doing......she'll go through the kids. She wants to know all about your personal life, and just you wait......when the kids get older, she'll be asking them all kind of questions about daddy. They are her link to find out if you are moving on, and if you are seeing another woman, or if you break down and cry in front of the kids. These are simply examples, and may not be any she would choose. If you read other threads, you'll often see the WW living with another man, yet wants to be friends with her LBH. That's what your W wants. But you can't be friends if she has such a hard heart against you.

Again, I don't have the values to do this so I don't understand. She is moving on, meeting people, going out with OM when I cannot put my heart in a conversation with a new woman, and yet she wants to see how I am doing. DOes she not know she is destroying me already, does she want to see every piece she has shattered me into? why? I always thought there was love for me left somewhere inside of her, I think that was another big mistake on my side.

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She doesn't miss many opportunities to repeat this same old narrative. Aren't you sick of it? Let me tell you, there's some people in this world that just won't turn lose of their resentment and their version of what really happened. There's NOTHING you can do to change her mind. I've tried to tell you that you can't become good enough to win her back, b/c that's not the problem. The problem is her mindset........her hard heart. She chooses to have this mindset. Do you understand what I'm saying? She has chosen to not accept any responsibility and by blaming you for 5 years of unhappiness, she feels justified to see Om and to continue to give you hell. Hatred does terrible things to people.

I do understand and yes I am sick of this. Actually something I mentioned to her is I cannot believe she has not moved on from that full you are guilty mindset and she said she made a decision being very sure of it, that she might have made a mistake but her feelings now for me were all gone. I think what I need is a lot of space for myself, to get away from these conversations, from any proof of OM and to be with myself and ask me deep inside, Pack, if ever in the future there was a chance to get your family and W back, what would you want to do?

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Was it sadness or something else? I'd guess it's more self pity, but I might be wrong. The things she said in this quote backs up what I said just above it. Look Pack, she is punishing you. She's paying you back for those 5 yrs. She's not going to turn lose of this attitude anytime soon.......if ever. It's her choice to hold this anger in her heart, and claim she did everything. How could she have done everything and you had no idea she was planning to leave the M? It's crazy talk.

I think she feels pity for me and my pain. how attractive right? She did mention a couple of times when we were fighting that she was considering a life without me. When I heard this I became incredibly defensive and pulled away, I know I have made mistakes, I just feel our M was young and deserved a transformation. Perhaps it is too late now, I am not going to sit here seeing her with OM while we are married on paper, I am worth more than a safety net, I am worth a lot, I am a good person with good values and a fantastic sense of hard work and responsibility and I am fun to be with. I deserve more than to be a memory from a deficient marriage and a father who pays expenses every month.

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Do you want to know what you did wrong? You GAL, went NC (sort of), and made changes to win your W back. That's why you feel like a failure when she turns to OM. This entire time you've done all this hard work for one reason..........to get your W back. You missed all the times we tried to tell you that it won't work if your motivation is to win her back. You GAL, NC, focus on kids, etc.......... for Pack. It's for Pack's happiness and betterment.......b/c you can't be good enough to win someone who refuses to like you. You just can't. You become a slave to the endeavor of changing for them. How exhausting that must be for you!

Until you give it up and genuinely live your life the way you want........you will remain a slave to the past mistakes. As long as you seek validation from your W, you will feel a failure. Why are you giving her that power to determine those things in your life? Okay, so she feels you were a lousy H. That's her problem at this time. You can do nothing about the past. You certainly can't change her mind. It's up to her. So, leave it alone and move on with having a life that pleases you.

I believe you misunderstood some of the techniques of DBing from the start, and I haven't been able to get you to see differently. So how do you think you can get her to change how she thinks?

You can't work on this MR b/c it's dead and the two of you are living separate lives. All you can do is work on your life without her. Until you understand that point, I don't think there is hope for a R. You have to let her go.

DBing is not a guarantee of saving the M. Nothing is a guarantee, b/c there are two people who have free volition.



I was convinced that we could improve communication, I could become more attractive both physically and emotionally and then the love we both feel for our children would fuel the idea of giving it a chance. I know this way of thinking is wrong, but I am speaking from the bottom of my heart now. I dont know why I keep giving her the power to decide how much I am worth as a man or how permanent my changes are.

I have used her rejection in the past as a way to reinforce I needed to keep working on my changes because I "wasn't there yet" and that fueled me to continue to work on myself, which felt amazing. I guess I am answering your question by saying what I need is to find that fuel in how great it feels to improve, for myself and my own sake, leaving her aside.

I am feeling very bad now Sandi, thanks a lot for your post and your help. I never thought anybody could come between W and me. I guess I had fantasies about how strong or permanent our M was. I need to go through the pain of realizing not only OM but many others might come and I need to sop thinking about her as the woman who sworn to me to share our lives and take care of our children together. I dont understand how I still cry at home and feel so miserable. It has been a year and a half and I should be way stronger by now. I am going for a run now as I said, I need it, and then I have IC later today. I will come and post about the session.

Thank you all for your help! Stay safe and go get what you deserve, it is a world of abundance out there!
((hugs))
Pack


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
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She continues to claim I never talked to her when we were married and honestly I am starting to believe it is true.


Whether it's true or not, there is nothing you can do about it now. I mean, if she believes you didn't talk to her while living together, what kind of sense would it make for her to expect it while on the verge of D?

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She told me I do not put my children first, and that is what she expects from me.


Oh, excuse me? shocked Does she not realize she is in no position to tell you how to parent the kids on your time, just as she doesn't want you to criticize her as a mother? She no longer holds authority over you or your life. That's what divorce does......it sets you free. How dare her!

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DOes she not know she is destroying me already, does she want to see every piece she has shattered me into? why? I always thought there was love for me left somewhere inside of her, I think that was another big mistake on my side.



It's about vengeance.

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I think what I need is a lot of space for myself, to get away from these conversations, from any proof of OM and to be with myself and ask me deep inside, Pack, if ever in the future there was a chance to get your family and W back, what would you want to do?


I want you to hear me carefully. You desire the W and family you once had. Your W has changed. She's not the same person. If all of you lived together again, it would be a different family, b/c both adults have changed and the boys are older. So, honestly, there is no getting the past back. You can't turn back the clock and correct the mistakes that were made five years ago. I think you truly want a chance to make up for the past, b/c she has pounded into your head that you failed. If she moved back today, it would not be a happy occasion, b/c she has no loving feelings for you. Why on earth would you want to live out your life with someone who doesn't love you?

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She did mention a couple of times when we were fighting that she was considering a life without me. When I heard this I became incredibly defensive and pulled away, I know I have made mistakes, I just feel our M was young and deserved a transformation. Perhaps it is too late now, I am not going to sit here seeing her with OM while we are married on paper, I am worth more than a safety net, I am worth a lot, I am a good person with good values and a fantastic sense of hard work and responsibility and I am fun to be with. I deserve more than to be a memory from a deficient marriage and a father who pays expenses every month.


I agree!

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I have used her rejection in the past as a way to reinforce I needed to keep working on my changes because I "wasn't there yet" and that fueled me to continue to work on myself, which felt amazing. I guess I am answering your question by saying what I need is to find that fuel in how great it feels to improve, for myself and my own sake, leaving her aside.



Pack, listen to me. You can only do your part. She has to do her part, and she refuses. She cuts you down and you take it to mean you need to work harder to get her. No! It means your W is not a nice person. She manipulates you, and blames you. She takes no responsibility for her part. Until that changes, I don't believe there is hope for a future together with her. She is not willing to let go of the past and forgive. Well, so be it. That's her choice to live with that much resentment in her heart, but if I were you, I'd stop holding on to a dream. How could you be happy with a the kind of woman she has become? You've done all the changing. She's done no changing. She wants to hold the past over your head. That's the reality.

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I guess I had fantasies about how strong or permanent our M was. I need to go through the pain of realizing not only OM but many others might come and I need to sop thinking about her as the woman who sworn to me to share our lives and take care of our children together.


Yes, you need to grieve. When we lose something precious to us, it hurts very deeply. You don't get through the grief in a few days and then it's all done. It comes in stages. You'll have better days, and then something will trigger your sorrow again. But here's the thing, Pack. If you had let go a year ago, you would be through the worst part by now and having a new outlook for your Paco's life. You have cried a lot of tears, but I don't think they were tears of grief. I hope you will let go and grieve for what the M could have been, and accept the reality.

I know you have suffered so much, and I could paint a beautiful picture just to keep you hanging on to false hope. But that's not the type person I am. I hope you'll resign yourself to the fact if the two of you ever get back together, it will be b/c she changes and she chases you down to tell you how sorry she is for hurting you and begs you to give her another chance. I don't want to see you giving up the life you could have b/c you're waiting around in hopes this will happen. I don't think she will. She comes out as the loser. She made this choice. You've done all you could to save the M, but she won't have it. Does that mean you have to work harder, make more changes? NO! It means it's over and there's nothing more you can do.

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It has been a year and a half and I should be way stronger by now. I am going for a run now as I said, I need it, and then I have IC later today. I will come and post about the session.


Yes, please do!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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