She's OUT! #7

[sandi2]

As said yesterday I have never really told her I dont want to be friends and/or set any clear boundaries around "us" and she wasnt getting it.

I'm not sure that I'm getting it either.

Though I wish to keep having a dialogue around the kids, talking/texting just you and I as if nothing has happen just wont work for me".

I'm not harping or giving a 2x4, I just want to point out something that might be informative for future texting or verbal conversation. When you tell her you want to keep having a dialogue around the kids, talking/texting just you and her as if nothing has happen........it might prove to be a bit of a problem. You see, Mumin, your WW needs to understand that everything has changed b/c of her choice to D you. Even having dialogues about the kids should be held in a business or professional style, rather than two old friends kicking back and talking about their kids whenever and no matter how many times per day. I know, I know........Mr. Nice Guy sees no need in being so stiff necked about everything, but then that's why these types of things come back to bite you in the hinny. It's you that looks for reasons to discuss something with her, and you'll be using the kids as a means to open the way to just talk to her. It's her who wants to talk to you also, but for different reasons. As long as she is wayward, she's going to try and take advantage and use every little loophole you put out there. So, in the future, I suggest you refrain from using the expression, "as if nothing has happened". Trust me when I tell you that most WW's would take that one little expression and run with it. Some WW's would have you on the phone all the time. Oh, sure, something might be said about how the kids are doing.......but it quickly gets into each other's personal life.

Originally Posted by LH19

Originally Posted by Mumin
Anyway, I am glad I was clear on a boundary and I'll be glad if she sticks to it for a while.

Why do you care if she sticks to it?

This is a very good question LH! Thank you! Sure made me reflect and you are so right!
I dont care, its my boundary, I will protect it and what she does really shouldn't bother me.

Okay, maybe I missed it, but I don't know what you made clear to her that is your boundary. Are you talking about not having conversations, except when it's about the kids? The second thing is I don't know what you mean by protecting your boundary. Do you mean enforcing it? If she doesn't honor the boundary you stated, what will be the consequences? Have you thought about that part of it?

This whole thing is complex as I want to protect our dialogue around the kids.
This was my first real step since physical separation to also protect myself.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean in the these two sentences. How do you plan to protect the dialogue around the kids? Also, are you talking about when you and XW are speaking to one another in front of the kids, or when the kids are at the other parent's house? B/c you can't control what is said in your XW's house.

I want to say again that this is not a 2x4. Perhaps you will think it's a play on words, and if so, please feel free to tell me. I just want to make sure you are understanding what boundaries are......and how to enforce boundaries. The "protection" should be you protecting your self respect. That is the purpose for having personal boundaries.......to protect your self respect. It's not to control the other person. So, what lengths are you prepared to go?

From what I remember reading in your sitch, your desire to have boundaries, is mostly linked to your children. I'm not sure how that works with co-parenting, b/c wouldn't the couple have to agree to these boundaries? Whereas in personal boundary setting, nobody has to agree b/c it's your boundary. It's about your self respect. Now, there may be another term or definition used in co-parenting, like terms of agreement between the two parents, but as I've said in the past......if you don't like something she's doing that involves the kids, then you practically have to take it to court or you're just spinning your wheels. Maybe some other parents who have gone through similar experiences will speak up about how they handled it.

((hugs))

[LH19]

So to sum it up and M you can correct me if I am wrong. You do not want to discuss anything with her other then the children. You still have issues with your NGS so you wanted to state one more time that you don't want to discuss anything but the children. Your hope is that she respects your wishes so you do not have to ignore her other questions in the future. So if you want to call it a "boundary" then the consequence of breaking the "boundary" is your silence.

I think there is a slight language barrier that is causing some of the confusion.

I can promise you she will test your strength regarding you stating your "boundary".

[unchien]

Hey M ~

It's nice that she acknowledged your feelings via text. As someone who struggled with NGS, I know I would have read those texts and wanted them to mean at some level that my X was finally understanding me. I don't mean I would have lapped them up, but reading them through the NGS lens I would have felt a flicker of connection.

I can't say whether or not she actually cares how you feel, but at least be aware about how much *you* care about how much *she* cares. The less you care, the easier it will be to detach, to be confident in yourself, to set and enforce appropriate boundaries, and to avoid falling into NGS tendencies (which your W likely expects you to do).

I agree with the others that your boundaries will be tested. If you've ever seen "Jurassic Park", I like to think of my X as one of those velociraptors constantly throwing themselves into the electrified fence, just to test that it is still juiced. Boundaries require consistency over time. Kids do the same thing.

[sandi2]

I can't say whether or not she actually cares how you feel, but at least be aware about how much *you* care about how much *she* cares. The less you care, the easier it will be to detach, to be confident in yourself, to set and enforce appropriate boundaries, and to avoid falling into NGS tendencies (which your W likely expects you to do).

If she is truly sorry for the pain she's caused, then I believe her actions linked to you will show more respect and less self centeredness. It's hard for me to explain, but I'll try. By the time the WW has OM, and her rebellion is more open, she doesn't see her new life having anything to do with how her LBH feels. She doesn't really tune in on how much suffering he is experiencing. Now, hold on a second and remember her so-called logic has flown the coop some time ago, so what I'm saying will make no sense to the LBH. Her sensitivity key has been shut down, and that's why she doesn't show the same compassion and concern for how all of this affects the children.......or the LBH. Her mindset is that they'll get over it. I think it must be a real problem for the spouse and children to realize everything is truly about "her".

I remember when my H told me that I had not even offered him an apology. I looked at him as if he had lost his mind. When he said something about his pain, I quickly told him in a typical WW tone that this had nothing to do about me setting out to cause him pain. In other words, I was saying, "This has nothing to do with you!" Of course it's a ridiculous statement, but I have read very similar statements other WW's would make. They are that cold, selfish, and disconnected to the feelings of her H. At what point does the WW realize how much pain she caused her LBH? I think some try to show a thin veil of concern, by saying things like your W has recently said to you. However, I don't believe for a second that she is remorseful for her actions. The WW attitude is like, "Well, I'm sorry you got hurt"........or, "I never meant to hurt you, but I suppose it couldn't be helped".......or something else along that line. She may even soften her voice or have a look on her face that suggests she really means it. Here's the thing..........until she goes through her WW journey, so to speak, and can actually feel remorse........it's like she's not capable of really feeling sorry that her H got hurt. Plus, if he calls her out about it.......she will get defensive and start pulling things from the past that she feels justifies her wayward decisions.

So, yeah, just look at it face value b/c if it ever hits her just how much damage she's caused, I think it will be very hard for her to admit to you her regret.........especially if she has moved on with someone else. I was coming to the board every night to get my head screwed on right, and yet, it took almost two years of reading tons of posts from LBH's who had been shredded to pieces by their WW. I was a recovering WW at the time, and I was reading those stories where these LBH's were sharing their pain, and I begin to slowly realize what I put my own H through. The LBH's were telling me things my own H would never say. But remember, it didn't happen until I decided to do the right thing.

I was once asked if every WW went through the same steps or process, like did they have to decide to do the right thing first, before they made changes or felt remorse. It's hard for me to see it any other way, except to say WW's make decisions to end their M, get D, and maybe even marry another man. Some of these gals may never experience remorse, or if they do......their XH never knows about it. So, I won't say their is a definite bullet point step by step process you can use to do determine anything about the WW coming to her senses or on her way to recovery. There are some who never go back to who they were (or portrayed to be) as the person you knew. Whenever there are personality disorders, or any additional issues, it just makes their sitch a bit unique from the other person without mental health issues, physical issues, FOO problems, etc., etc. This subject can get deep, so I'll just leave it there for now.

My advice to all you LBH's who struggle with NGS, is not to give more than face value to anything your WW or XWW says or does that appears good.....normal......or even hopeful. As much as you want to see her former self, it is a process that depends of her free will. It's a choice for her, and it is very hard work (and needs to be hard) to recover from that awful, wayward mindset.

((hugs))

[Mumin]

Wow guys, the support her is so amazing!
Thank you LH, Sandi and U!

I think you still want to recon when I would prefer for you to really see her for who she is

I believe I am further along here than you might think. What is mostly holding me back (from totally ignoring her) is NGS and caring for the kids.

When you tell her you want to keep having a dialogue around the kids, talking/texting just you and her as if nothing has happen........it might prove to be a bit of a problem. You see, Mumin, your WW needs to understand that everything has changed b/c of her choice to D you. Even having dialogues about the kids should be held in a business or professional style, rather than two old friends kicking back and talking about their kids whenever and no matter how many times per day.

Not sure if its you or me misunderstanding here but I told her that I CAN'T talk as if nothing happened.
I do stay business only, though showing feelings around the kids of course. Ex "It's so great to see D6 play with ...."
No contact at all with XW now and I hope it stays once a week and in the future even less.

So to sum it up and M you can correct me if I am wrong. You do not want to discuss anything with her other then the children. You still have issues with your NGS so you wanted to state one more time that you don't want to discuss anything but the children. Your hope is that she respects your wishes so you do not have to ignore her other questions in the future. So if you want to call it a "boundary" then the consequence of breaking the "boundary" is your silence.

I think there is a slight language barrier that is causing some of the confusion.

I can promise you she will test your strength regarding you stating your "boundary".

This is correctly summed up.
The only correction being I had never really stated that before.
I m 100% sure she will test me and I will need to remind myself because it will probably be in a few months time and very slightly, increasing if I let it.

Hey M ~

It's nice that she acknowledged your feelings via text. As someone who struggled with NGS, I know I would have read those texts and wanted them to mean at some level that my X was finally understanding me. I don't mean I would have lapped them up, but reading them through the NGS lens I would have felt a flicker of connection.

I can't say whether or not she actually cares how you feel, but at least be aware about how much *you* care about how much *she* cares. The less you care, the easier it will be to detach, to be confident in yourself, to set and enforce appropriate boundaries, and to avoid falling into NGS tendencies (which your W likely expects you to do).

I agree with the others that your boundaries will be tested. If you've ever seen "Jurassic Park", I like to think of my X as one of those velociraptors constantly throwing themselves into the electrified fence, just to test that it is still juiced. Boundaries require consistency over time. Kids do the same thing.

Hi U, long time! Thanks for checking in! How are you doing nowadays? Know you had a rough WW!
I mostly felt some sort of a victorious feeling afterwards.
I was glad she actually said sorry but like she said it isnt really enough. Though it might help me eventually forgive.
Love the Jurassic Park reference! It was my ABSOLUTE childhood favorite.

Her mindset is that they'll get over it.

This is so true!
Great last post there Sandi! IT should be read by newbies.
There sure is a chance she felt exactly that way (Whatever, he'll get over it) when she sent the "sorry text".
There also is a chance it was real remorse, but I will probably never know.
What's for certain is that no matter her words or excuses, I wouldn't believe them.
That would take years of actions.

[LH19]

M,

I think I understand what you’re saying but you need to stop using NGS as an excuse.

You don’t ever have to state your boundary. I didn’t make a grand statement to my exw because of what she did I wasn’t going to do X. I just did it. If I got a text about the kids I would respond when I felt like it. If I get one about password for such and such I ignore. It took a really long time and lots of rejections for her to get it. If she’s that stupid and can’t figure out why she is completely out of my life other then the kids that is on her.

You’re doing great just keep going!

[Traveler]

I do stay business only, though showing feelings around the kids of course. Ex "It's so great to see D6 play with ...."

This sounds like a conversation you'd have with a friend. Is that one of your goals for your relationship with your ex moving forward? My co-parenting chats focus on actionable decisions such as if/when to get the vaccine or return to school. There's nothing wrong with your interaction. I do notice LBS who want to reconcile seem to spend more time talking to their ex's about their children than LBS who have moved on, so this caught my attention and it may be worth considering your motives in going beyond friendly.

[sandi2]

Not sure if its you or me misunderstanding here but I told her that I CAN'T talk as if nothing happened.

Maybe it's me, but let me point something out about how you told her. Saying "I can't" is too soft. You can't appear weak or vulnerable to a wayward W. You have made a decision that you WON'T talk as if nothing happened. See the difference? Maybe your feelings cause you think you can't, but don't say it to a WW. Everything must be seen as you being a strong male who is making decisions based on his belief system and core values. When you tell her you "can't", it shows her a little boy who lets his emotions dictate his actions. Very weak in the eyes of a WW!

LH said something about a language barrier. Is English not your first language?

I do stay business only, though showing feelings around the kids of course. Ex "It's so great to see D6 play with ...."

Good to stay business-like. Oh, wait............what? What do you mean showing feelings around the kids?

I agree with LH that you can't use NGS as an excuse. It helps to understand it, but it's not a "get out of jail card". NGS is a problem, but you can change a lot of it, if you really want to change. I've seen it happen first hand, with my H. I'm concerned if you truly want to stop some of your nice guy ways with your WW. (Some guys are quite proud to tell us they are a nice guy.......apparently, not fully understanding what it means.)

I really want you to grow through this experience and not suffer in the next relationship, due to NGS. BTW, I'm not suggesting you haven't been working on yourself. When I read the posts you write on other threads, I get the feeling you are working. So, keep it up, and don't get discouraged if we point something out.

((hugs))

[OnlyBent]

How you been Mumin?

[OnlyBent]

Mumin, helloooooooooooooo? How you been fam?