Still learning, but leaning into the future...

[Sage4]

D, thank you for the thoughtful, inspiring posts.

We share many similar worldviews. And your concept of 'feelings are fleeting' has been a guiding light to me in this process. I deeply respect your decision to stand for yourself and your vows and how that defines who you are a person in this world.

H is an atheist (think Christopher Hitchens) and I am spiritual, but not religious. Our vows reflected this and eliminated wording about man and wife and death do us part and forever and ever, amen (and obviously we weren't married in a church; H would have walked away if God were asked to be a witness, etc). Our vows reflected us at the time: love, honor, respect, openly resolving our differences and allowing and accepting each other as we are, encouraging growth and supporting our differences. I guess when I really read our vows, I can honor them with or without him as my H, whether I have a new partner in my life or not. And not in the funny-business way of finding a loophole, but in the truest sense of how we wrote and intended those vow to represent us. I am still living and honoring my vows, and always will.

The 'filling a hole' has been something I have been acutely aware of since this whole process started. That I could never re-partner until the H-sized hole in my life was filled back in with only me. And I honestly thought that would never really happen; my love for him was so big, the hole so gaping. But inch by inch that hole has filled. It will never be flush, thank goodness, because what would be the point of life if not to continually grow? But that hole isn't a vortex, nor do I really notice it much anymore. It's just me, being me these days.

I am no longer standing for H or my M. I am standing purely for me.

Another area that I have spent a long time considering is whether it is fair to introduce someone into my life at this stage. The baggage (no matter how light it may or may not be) of the impending, molasses-moving D isn't really fair to hoist on to another person. But then again, who am I to 'save' another person? My caretaking days are slowly receding. (And by caretaking, I mean in the disordered sense, where I feel it is my responsibility to minister for, cater to and protect/save people from their poor decisions or behavior, even if that poor decision is choosing me.) What if a man falls madly in love with me, and me him, tomorrow? (work with me here) Do I choose to deny my love and deflect his, only because I have too much baggage? Hmmm... I am going to leave this open-ended because I don't know how I feel about all of this and welcome thoughts.

And then the largest conundrum for me is the likelihood that my next R will be a rebound R. Oh, heavens, how terrible for this next person! Who should have to sign up for that?

This is all a long-winded way of defining my current state: I am not sure I am seeking, but I am not sure I would turn down a potential love interest.

Paco, you are so wise. I loved your definition of loneliness vs LONELINESS. I think I would politely decline the former and potentially welcome the latter should it land in my lap. I guess that's the best definition of where I am at the moment.

Big hugs to all, thanks for your vulnerable, beautiful replies.

xx
S

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

Awesome post!

That hole within yourself is no longer a vortex and is barely noticed.

Standing purely for yourself.

Well said Sage.

Our vows reflected us at the time: love, honor, respect, openly resolving our differences and allowing and accepting each other as we are, encouraging growth and supporting our differences. I guess when I really read our vows, I can honor them with or without him as my H, whether I have a new partner in my life or not. And not in the funny-business way of finding a loophole, but in the truest sense of how we wrote and intended those vow to represent us. I am still living and honoring my vows, and always will.

Thank you for sharing this.

My mentioning of loophole is me. Not in the funny-business way, a serious resolution to that dilemma. I’ve listened, discussed, and read many views and reasons for various paths. Your vows and their intent is helpful to me and I know I will mull it over for some time.

I am considering if I want to alter my belief regarding my vows. I realize it’s “my” belief and “my” vow. I’ve expended and invested considerable energy and time into this issue and still hold too my views. I can see many sides to this matter and still I remain planted. Suppose I’m not ready I guess.

Do I choose to deny my love and deflect his, only because I have too much baggage?

Yes. If, and ‘work with me here’, IF you have too much baggage do not bring someone into that. Fix. Let go the baggage first.

That is a mostly theoretical answer. One in which you actually gave the answer in the question. If I have “too much” baggage. Of course, it’s too much. The underlining question is - Do I have too much baggage?

Perhaps that is the next step you are looking towards. Addressing whatever baggage you’re dragging about.

For me, finding acceptance and forgiveness removes a lot of emotional baggage. And if I may, I do not believe you are overstocked with too much luggage. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders, a wise mind, and a good heart.

D

[DnJ]

CW, I’ve posted a response to your query on my thread, I not wish to hijack Sage’s.

[Eagle3]

I have a lot to update, but not the mental energy to do so. But the one thought that I woke up to the other morning was a sense of loneliness. Specifically from physical intimacy (not necessarily sex, though that would be nice). I realized that the past 19 months have been the longest I have ever gone since the age of 13 where I didn't hold a boy (or man's) hand, or kiss someone or cuddle or engage in pillow-talk. Maybe it is a reclaiming of my post-breakup womanhood (though I was hardly a woman when I held my first crushes' hand on the back of that 4-wheeler in Alaska at 13). I have had a lot of dry periods in my life, where the need for self-actualization was more urgent than the need for intimacy, but even during those eras, I still flirted or felt I had opportunities and was making a conscious choice to abstain.
I am not interested in online dating. I have been on a blind date or two set up by loving friends, which I can internally justify as 'making new friends' or 'potential business investor' so not really the same thing, and didn't lead to much, likely from my end.
I am not sure if I am looking for answers or solidarity or just sharing my current state of mind. I would love to kiss someone, or hold someone's hand or cuddle. I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point. I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment. All the self-work I have been doing the past 2 years, all the child-first parenting I have been doing, has paid dividends and now that most accounts are (nearly) full, I am yearning for more.
I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings. Sage

Hi Sage,
I wanted to give my interpretation when these feelings started to take the upper hand for a while.
I am also a very physical person. Holding each other just before bedtime, kissing, lying close together on the couch, sex, etc.. The feeling that someone can give you with these gestures is incredibly rewarding and that is why it is so missed.

Realize these are feelings. They are not permanent. Not forever. And will most definitely change.Do not date to fill some void. That does not work. Void, loneliness, unhappiness, sadness, bitterness, etc all come from within. External will not alleviate that. Also fulfillment, contentment, joy, happiness, forgiveness, etc all come from within. External will not create that.D

If you read my thread you will see that a few months ago I had a huge desire to simply feeling loved by a partner, I too I have never been alone in my life since I was 15 years old. Exactly at that moment I also got some sincere attention from an attractive man.
I then asked for advice, to see how everyone on the forum dealt with it.
D explained very well to me just as he has here, and also to CW on his own thread today, the principle of feelings fleeting and how you can learn to control them.
I won’t say I’m there yet but I try to apply this, or at the least try to follow the advice D explained to me back then (although I have to read it sometimes over and over as it is definitely not always the easiest way ) But he sure was right about one thing. The feeling I had of dating someone else faded fairly quickly again.
I realized I considered doing this, but for the wrong reasons, for me it was actually to fill that void.
I'm happy I didn't go through with this.
Your situation is, in my intuition, more advanced. If that void is no longer present, and you no longer stand for your marriage or your H, it means you've closed the door behind you and want to move on, why not let someone new into your life when the opportunity arises.
In any case, I wish you a lot of success. You seem to be a very strong woman.
xxx

[Sage4]

Hi friends,

A long overdue update that isn't really a departure from the norm for me. H and I are still in divorce proceedings and it is going very slow. I am fairly confident that we will get something worked out by the end of the year, or early next year but I am not entirely sure. I am just keeping calm about it all and letting the L's do their work and trusting the process with an eye on my own interests.

H's initial expectation that he was leaving me so he could 'just be happy himself and raise his kids, happily' seems to not be going according to plan. He is absolutely miserable in a way I have never seen him before and of course it is all completely my fault. I believe he has depression at best and possibly a mood or character disorder at worst. We have a theoretical 50/50 custody split, but the actual is closer to 90/10. He has taken some personal trips during his custody time and also is back to traveling for work so it means that I have the kids the majority of the time. When H is away, I experience relative silence from him and it is blissful. But when he is in town (often it starts with emails on the airplane when he is heading home) I have to brace myself for every interaction.

H is so h3ll-bent on finding fault with me that he is unwilling to see that I am doing everything 'by the book' with regards to our coparenting agreements. For example, I sent him an email update about a significant appt with one of the children, right after the appt. But later that day he demands an update from me as if I never sent one. He literally cannot 'see' the email that I sent him 6 hours earlier. This is a very literal example, but I experience this sort of dissonance during every interaction. He forgets verbal conversations we have about schedule changes, accuses me of keeping him out of the loop with the children (though I am so careful to keep him abreast at all times) and in general is just super, super difficult and obstructionist. He has absolutely no emotional generosity towards me, accuses me of convincing the children he was the one who left (umm?), and rails and lashes out at me frequently. I am not used to being portrayed in the way he portrays me in his mind and actions, it is just so opposite from my nature that I feel like a deer in headlights every time.

Not only am I doing 100% of the mental load of raising the kids (as well as the emotional load), but I am also raising them alone 90% of the time (and not making him feel bad about that fact at all) AND he still has to make it difficult for me on all those fronts. He fights me on basic admin things I do for the kids, but he is not lifting a finger to do any of them himself.

There is also emotional blackmail happening regularly towards me. I am learning to shrug it off, but the combination of raising the kids with no breaks, doing all the kid-related admin/homework/school/sports events/scheduling/life stuff, trying to start a business, navigating the D, being a good coparent and dealing with his issues is defeating me. I just don't see why he has to make this so hard; it is truly so, so unnecessary. And the thought of dealing with this for the next 12 years makes me cry.


On a happier note, the kids are doing really well. Parent-teacher conferences were all glowing and there was a huge focus on how compassionate, kind, emotionally aware and what pleasures my children are in class and beyond. The children argue at the dinner table about who gets to go next in telling me all about their day (they do something called thorn-rosebud-rose which is where they talk about something tricky in their day, something they are looking forward to and something really wonderful). It can take an hour to leave the table, they are so talkative and expressive. I feel really close to all of them and am deeply curious and accepting of their unique expressions in the world. Despite some anxiety issues (which could be pandemic-related or divorce-related) I think the kids will be OK.

If anyone has any advice, anecdotes or thoughts on how I could better navigate all of this, I would be so appreciative.

xoxo
Sage

[kml]

Awww…I’m sorry he’s spewing. They do that, especially as they’re getting what they “wanted”. Keep communications written like you’re doing. They also develop terrible memories. Having proof of what you told them is good.

Being stuck as the responsible parent is hard - but the rewards are great. Many with true 50:50 custody spend a lot of time missing their kids or worrying about their safety when in custody of their ex; so there are plusses to having them 90% of the time, even though it must be exhausting.

((((Hug)))))

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

With all sincerity, you are doing wonderfully!

Kind, compassionate, and emotionally aware kids that stretch out supper to over an hour as they tell you about their day - you have done very well indeed! Your healthy happy kids, that in itself is worth your struggles with H and all his behaviour.

You are well into the awareness of what a golden opportunity this horrible and unwanted situation is. Well enough along to realize you’d not go back to how it was even if you could. You are blessed. (((Hugs)))

I am glad the divorce is proceeding, albeit slowly. Being separated by the end of the year or just in the new year would be a welcomed event. And not. I get it, it’s weird.

H is displaying his confusion and projections pretty clearly. And yes, his imagined fantasy world in which everyone applauded him for his courage for leaving and as he effortlessly raise the kids, is crashing around him as reality settles in. And still he fights it. These tormented folks cannot handle the pressures.

I ended up with 100% custody. There was supposed to be a 50/50 on major things like medical stuff and such, as well as for major purchases like university or grad or other big “family-type” items. Nine of that happened. I looked after and paid for everything. Another blessing, from my point of view.

My kids were/are older and therefore not as tiring I’m sure. Enjoy and celebrate your 90%. Kids are always watching and learning, you are the strong stable role model parent. Plenty of the “raising” is going to be 100% from you. Very good dividends will come from such investment.

He forgets verbal conversations we have about schedule changes, accuses me of keeping him out of the loop with the children (though I am so careful to keep him abreast at all times) and in general is just super, super difficult and obstructionist. He has absolutely no emotional generosity towards me, accuses me of convincing the children he was the one who left (umm?), and rails and lashes out at me frequently.

Yep. H is h3ll bent on his irrational path. He is completely driven and making decision based upon his emotions. And as you have seen many times, H’s emotions are out of control. His torment is clearly demonstrated and seen. He is absolutely miserable.

H cannot handle the pressure. He cannot yet accept or acknowledge certain things. He can only barely admit and acknowledge he is wrong - and only the smallest bit at that. And you, my dear Sage, are in his line of fire. You get blamed and lashed out at and projected upon.

There is also emotional blackmail happening regularly towards me. I am learning to shrug it off, but the combination of raising the kids with no breaks, doing all the kid-related admin/homework/school/sports events/scheduling/life stuff, trying to start a business, navigating the D, being a good coparent and dealing with his issues is defeating me. I just don't see why he has to make this so hard; it is truly so, so unnecessary. And the thought of dealing with this for the next 12 years makes me cry.

H needs to make it so very difficult. For H it is necessary. They will mow down anything and anyone who stands in their way.

It is unnecessary from our rational viewpoint. You are going along with his divorce wishes. He is getting what he wants. His irrational ever changing goal post moving ideas can never be met, for he actually doesn’t know what he wants. All he has is some vague feelings about some sort of happiness just over the next hill; and along with that mostly pain and torment which he is running from. Thing is, that next hill keeps moving. He is running from himself. And one cannot outrun themselves. H really doesn’t know what he wants, because he is following feelings.

Understanding the necessary or inevitable projections and blame from H does not make it ok. Emotional blackmail is still not something you have to put up with. Remember to utilize boundaries in response to his disrespectful or otherwise behaviour that is harmful to your well-being.

If anyone has any advice, anecdotes or thoughts on how I could better navigate all of this, I would be so appreciative.

I love how you stated this. “How I could better navigate…”. You are doing very well and open to being and becoming even better. That’s the perfect outlook in my humble opinion.

Continue doing what your doing. You kids are fine examples of your good values and efforts.

Consider firming up some boundaries. This will be easier once divorced. There is a benefit to rock the boat as little as possible while getting things negotiated and settled. And that “turn the other cheek” attitude will have benefit to you directly in other aspects if your life.

Once divorce, be divorced. Let go. Let H do what he will.

Continue to not demonize nor speak purposefully ill of H. Let his paltry 10% dwindle to zero if that is his heading. Be you. Your kids are watching and know who is who, and who is doing what.

H is, and will always be, their Dad. He won’t be your husband. I found that is a different mindset to come to terms with. Indifference, letting go, and yet still watching over the health and welfare of your kids need not bring about the spectre of 12 years of stress and tears. Boundaries, acceptance, forgiveness, and such, all steps towards that great life.

Have a wonderful day my friend.

D

[Eagle3]

When H is away, I experience relative silence from him and it is blissful. But when he is in town (often it starts with emails on the airplane when he is heading home) I have to brace myself for every interaction.

Hi Sage,

I can only compare with my situation and I had the exact same issues.
H lives abroad since more than 1 year and only returned about a week every 6 weeks. while away sporadically controlling messages, mostly about the kids, once heading home, on the plane, this always increased. And everything is your fault, you keeping him out of the loop,...nothing new here.

Your children are smaller than mine so I can imagine it is really hard to do everything on your own. Definitely when you don't have any help of parents or other relatives. Would be good to try to find a possibility to plan a weekend off in the coming months, and perhaps go somewhere with a friend?

The positive thing however is their unconditional love for you and the fact that you are the one who has always been there for them. Believe me, they will never forget and will show this more and more as they grow older.

Good for you to never have complained or made him feel bad about the fact that you are raising them alone. I'm doing the same, so his fighting and emotional blackmail means nothing, it is because his fantasy world is not at all what he expected and he is mad about it.


Unfortunately this is all part of the process he must go through.

I'm glad to hear the kids are doing well.

I can only add that you are doing really well Sage. I don't think there is a better way to navigate through this unfortunately.
The only advice I would like to give you is to try to plan some me-time for you as well. I know it is not easy but this is very important, even if it's only a weekend away. Time to charge your batteries a bit I guess,

[Gerda]

Sage my darling I have been taking a break from here but sometimes peek in just to see if you or May posted! (Tried to find crumbs but not smart enough.)

I was happy to see you posted but I am ready to kick some MLC arse on your behalf!

My H used this same technique. Once I went dark, he got interested in the kids and used a feigned interest in them to force me to respond to him all the time.

Same abuse, different context.

Don't get confused. Don't get abused.

Not your responsibility to keep him informed about the kids.

Not your responsibility to invite him to stuff or make sure he knows anything.

Would you rely on him for those things, ever? No! You'd call teachers yourself, go to plays and confirmations and prom dress shopping by yourself, etc.

You're already doing so much better than I did. I was outright jealous and wistful reading about the way your kids act with you and each other. You did good and they are amazing, even if they get twisty and hurt over all this during the process.

GO DARK IN ALL CONTEXTS, Sage of the Ice Skating Pond. And stick to business with efficiency. One time I was crying in court and texted a friend of mine who lives in another country and speaks English somewhat brokenly. He answered, "Don't let those dogs make you cry." So I always picture him saying that with his beautiful accent. And now this is my new motto (with apologies to all dogs, including mine!).

My advice --

Stop talking to him about the kids. You don't need to take to someone who is abusing you. Make a Google doc calendar and post there anything you don't MIND him knowing about. Until you have a court order/agreement describing what you have to do, just do what you don't mind doing. The general rule is going to be status quo. Girl, you WANT 90% to be status quo!

Write him a note saying something like, "To make sure you have all the info you need, I created a shared document where we can post anything going on or any cancellations and each of us can just check there each week. Just text me to let me know about last minute changes."

There are also apps for that but I couldn't bear anything that "efficient" myself, efficiency and monsters I do not like as a combo for historical and personal reasons. Plus as we know, they won't follow through, so no point in spending money and time on something they won't use once they realize they can't abuse you through it.

On One Mom's Battle, there is a list of "canned responses." Tape those to your closet door and use them whenever needed. Or tape them to your forehead?

And record EVERYTHING in a documents called, "VISITATION RECORD." Include date and what happened. Things he did in a report-style, no emotion. And anything you did in response. It may be that no one will ever see it but I have used mine (one for each year since 2017!!!!) several times as exhibits in motions and plan to use it if my non-H actually follows through on this trial.

Remember, I still believe in love and standing for your marriage. But marriage is not an idol to worship. Once it becomes clear that your H is a narcissist or an abuser of some kind, you must go dark. You can stand while you are doing that or you can stop standing, but you gotta go dark. If it's temporary, you can reopen your borders when he is a human again.

Come over for coffee now? I want to hear about the new business! I have been doing the same.

[Elbereth]

Sage, I second all that Gerda says above.

However, in our situation we started to use Talking Parents app for communications after it got so bad that we got a restraining order against XW/Bio Mom. This was written into the new parenting agreement so she legally agreed to it, if we dropped the restraining order, which we did. So maybe you can work it into your divorce/parenting agreements as well?

There is a paid and a free version and this app isn't complicated (you can go deep with Family Wizard if you want something more robust for expenses, etc). We used the paid version and she stuck with the free one. Expenses were handled on a google doc, but records of it were posted via TP. What did help with is with the XW knowing that all convos can be used in court and are in a written record. So, she quickly behaved herself and the games ended. As part of the agreement she was to no longer text either of us or email either of us directly (outside of the app) unless it was an emergency. Using Talking Parents to communicate eliminated all the drama pretty quickly.

It allowed us to "go dark" yet still coparent effectively. And every time she played games with expenses, we pulled the lawyers in. Yeah, it was a total waste of money to do that, but standing our ground just a few times made her realize we were done with the games and it was going to cost her money as well to play the games.

Sending hugs to you.