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A Message from Michele
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Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: wayfarer] #2917837
04/15/21 03:11 PM
04/15/21 03:11 PM
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LH19 Offline
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LH19  Offline
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.

W,

I don't want to give you another reason to hate on men lol.

Amazing friend - sure
Amazing employee - ok
Amazing daughter - yep

Amazing person - sorry no can do not when you cheat on your spouse "best friend" use him and then D him

If it makes you feel any better I wouldn't classify myself as an amazing person but I would a friend. I've done too many bad things in my life.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917861
04/16/21 12:21 AM
04/16/21 12:21 AM
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scout12 Offline
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Moral relativism is a requirement for both the cheater and one who stays with a cheater. It's pretty fascinating how it always ends up there, from a psychological standpoint.

The question here isn't really the quality of their character. It's your ability to tolerate the quality of their character, and what that says about your own character.


W32
X30
S3

June 2019 | Runaway husband
May 2020 | Legal separation
Dec 2020 | Happily divorced
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917885
04/16/21 07:08 PM
04/16/21 07:08 PM
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IronWill Offline
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Hi may

Interesting discussion going on here. People have a tendency to want to see things in either black or white. In reality life is many different shades of gray and perspective is everything.

It sounds like your friend is in crisis and is running - hard. The morality of it is subject to each individual and is most likely colored by their/our own life experiences. IMO i don't think its a bad thing to be a friend to someone if they are looking for help. As long as boundaries around your own life and situation are established.

Stay strong smile

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917888
04/16/21 08:01 PM
04/16/21 08:01 PM
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may22 Offline OP
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Wow, judgy, judgy. TBH a bit disappointing. I do try to keep in mind that everyone here has been deeply hurt and has needed to make their own meaning out of what has happened to them, but as this site is focused on self-improvement and growth, I have to say it does feel a bit off to hear some of this.

I'm with Wayfarer on this one. I have always believed in the ability of humans to grow and change and the power of forgiveness. In fact, in my own situation, I feel that belief is being tested-- why do I have a hard time applying this belief to my own life and my own husband, and forgiving him for his past actions? I resent, a bit, the implication that I (and other LBSs who reconcile) have pretzeled my own morals to allow for forgiveness, and that those actions somehow reflect on my own character for the worse. Or that I'm living in some fantasy la-la land, pretending my H is really not so bad but really will spend the rest of my life fearfully waiting for the other shoe to drop, all simply because I didn't choose D and am trying to make myself feel better about that decision. Sorry, I don't buy it. But whatever floats your boat and helps you sleep at night.

I have my MA in psychology and find human behavior fascinating-- how people can make choices so inconsistent with their own self-interest (good and bad), the power of the human brain to make meaning out of chaos, the impact of moral injury and post-traumatic growth. I think this entire site is a testament to the power of post-traumatic growth for those who look upon the BD as an opportunity to grow themselves rather than using it as ammunition to demonize their wayward spouse and condemn and judge others for their choices. It seems to me that the cheating spouses, who have inflicted significant moral injury on themselves, have even a deeper trauma to process than those of us who were merely along for the ride. How can that experience not be a catalyst for even greater growth?

The "people don't change" line is BS. Like WF, I've seen it happen, over and over, for the good and for the bad. My FIL has had his brain consumed by Fox News and has become a suspicious and bitter soul. It's sad. And how many people are completely transformed by parenthood? We shouldn't define ourselves by the past. Everyone can make a choice to be better, today. Understood that many don't make that choice. But please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

Steve, racists are hard. I struggle a lot here. I had a moment during the Trump administration regarding the separation of families at the border where I simply lost it and thought-- these people are evil. Pure evil. I also have the hardest time with anti-marriage-equality activists, who spend their own time and energy preventing other people from simply being happy. Strange and sad and wrong. However... can you imagine what their lives are like on the inside? Racists, too? How bitter and small and fearful they must be to cultivate such hatred in their own souls? Not to say that there shouldn't be consequences for wrong actions, or that I'd be interested in spending time with people like this. I deeply admire people who have the ability to see the human inside even those twisted and bitter souls. I feel I can know it is there in the abstract but when I see the horrible injustices and violence that springs from it, I move to more of an LH/Scout let's lock them all up and throw away the key. So I struggle here with judgment for sure.

Not trying to convince anyone here. Just sharing my own two cents because I can! smile

And if anyone cares about the original storyline here... my H and I talked over our friends' situation at length. Decided to reach out to the LBH and let him know we heard what is going on and we care and are there for him, invited him to come hang out some night he doesn't have his kids. He responded that he really appreciated it and we'll get a date together. Hoping we can be there for him as much as he needs it. I've also been texting a bit with his wife and will continue to be supportive as she needs as well.

Happy Friday,

May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917891
04/16/21 08:30 PM
04/16/21 08:30 PM
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LH19 Offline
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Originally Posted by may22
I resent, a bit, the implication that I (and other LBSs who reconcile) have pretzeled my own morals to allow for forgiveness, and that those actions somehow reflect on my own character for the worse. Or that I'm living in some fantasy la-la land, pretending my H is really not so bad but really will spend the rest of my life fearfully waiting for the other shoe to drop, all simply because I didn't choose D and am trying to make myself feel better about that decision.

So to go on record I am not in this camp. Humans make mistakes. I made my fare share. I am for reconciliation under certain circumstances even if there was an affair. I have posted many times what IMO there must be for a true reconciliation. I got lumped in with Scout although my views are clearly different.

My opinion about your friend doesn't change. Amazing people do not do those things to their so called best friend.

I find it interesting May that you are always giving us your resume. Because you have a master in psychology does your opinion have more validity?

Originally Posted by may22
My FIL has had his brain consumed by Fox News and has become a suspicious and bitter soul.

This sadly has happened to my mother. I wish there was something we could do about it.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917896
04/16/21 10:34 PM
04/16/21 10:34 PM
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scout12 Offline
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I don't think that tolerating bad behaviour reflects negatively on anyone's character. I'm sorry if that was implied, it wasn't my intention.

My comment was intended to take the focus off the other person entirely. You can't control what they do, or who they are, so why bother trying to decipher if they are good or bad or anything in between. The only thing that matters is your response and being okay with what that says about you. If you can accept them and counsel them despite their values which clearly don't align with yours, that says a lot about your character in a positive way. It shows strength and forgiveness and tolerance. But do I also think it requires some mental gymnastics? Yes, I do.

I saw a close friend's profile recently on Tinder. He has a partner, a one year old, and a newborn baby. I don't know what my response should be in accordance with my values, so I haven't acted yet. But I would hope I'd show understanding at least, even if my decision was to end the friendship. I've certainly performed mental gymastics to explain and excuse it: he might have an open relationship, it's just harmless looking, maybe it's a fake profile with his photos. I can tell myself this, but my gut knows I am wrong. And my character won't let me sit comfortably with that.

These things ARE complicated. But I do believe in objective principles of right and wrong, and dislike the trend away from objective morality.

I'm sorry if my comments were too personal, May. You clearly trust your gut, and are sitting comfortably with that, which is all that matters.


W32
X30
S3

June 2019 | Runaway husband
May 2020 | Legal separation
Dec 2020 | Happily divorced
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917906
04/17/21 04:48 AM
04/17/21 04:48 AM
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may22 Offline OP
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haha LH, didn't mean to try to shop my resume. More that this has been interesting to me for a long time. My opinion has no more validity than anyone else's, absolutely.

And on my friend... I guess I'll learn more when we see her H. The weird thing is that I probably would have considered myself a closer friend with her H than with her. It is all really sad. Their son is in my older daughter's class and she doesn't know about the D... which I think means he hasn't told anyone. It all just is sad, regardless.

Scout.. I really appreciate you clarifying. I agree, these things are incredibly complicated. And weird about your friend.

xx M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917909
04/17/21 09:23 AM
04/17/21 09:23 AM
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LH19 Offline
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It’s very sad. I’m not even a person who doesn’t advocate divorce. In fact I’m helping my friend plan one now. He and is wife hate each other with a passion. Now if he were to tell me they were best friends but something was missing I would point him in another direction. I’m not saying at all that you should drop her as a friend my point is only she is not an amazing person. An amazing person would say “I can’t put my bf and my kids through this pain so let’s find a way to work this out”. Then she could always revisit when the kids are older.

The bottom line is your friends H shouldn’t want to be with a woman like this and maybe this is something you can help him see moving forward.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2918026
04/21/21 04:30 AM
04/21/21 04:30 AM
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Elbereth Offline
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I'm with May and Wayfarer generally on this topic. I know I have changed and grown. So I have faith that all of us can. Even as I question my own H's character, I dwell on if he's who he is right now due to manifestations of fear of vulnerability or something else that his soul struggles with? We all are multi-faceted. We can all do bad things. I know I am not perfect. All of our paths are different and I think we all act and react in ways that even confuse ourselves, let alone others. I want to be open to forgiveness even if I struggle with it with my H. I can see why this conversation with your friend brought up the feelings it did for you May. I admire your support and care with your friend and her husband.

El


Me 51, H 55
T10 M7
2 Step Ss (18 and 20)
2nd MR for both

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2918656
05/08/21 08:48 AM
05/08/21 08:48 AM
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may22 Offline OP
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Hi friends! Thought I'd update. I had a couple crazy weeks trying to button up everything I could at my last job, then a blissful week off. It was fantastic... H got me a hotel for a night ALONE and I took bubble baths and did yoga and slept in and had mimosas and room service and rented a cabana by the pool for the whole day. Read a novel and drank umbrella drinks. H and kids came by in the afternoon after school to hang out at the pool. It was soooo nice. Finally fully vaccinated too so had my hair cut for the first time in well over a year, had a massage, cleaned out my closet and got rid of a ton of stuff, generally just tried to really relax.

I started my new job on Monday and am totally beat-- I think a combination of the new job, meeting a million people, actually going into the office and being around people all day, and trying to learn a whole new business and triage all the various emergencies going on. They've been without a CEO since January and it was like everything was just waiting for me to come on board to vomit up four months plus of problems. I had planned on doing a lot of listening for the first few weeks (thanks, DB validating practice!) but may need to accelerate some actions or at least set ground rules and expectations sooner than I'd planned... anyway. it is a lot but I'm also loving really digging into something new.

Things with H are good. I generally feel like with me I'm one step back, two steps forward in my healing/forgiveness process. He has been very steady, continues to be open, caring, thoughtful, apologetic, non-defensive. A couple of months ago I told him he'd probably have to tell me he was sorry and he loved me every day for a year before I believed it, and he continues to do this maybe every other day or so. I'm still angry and hurt-- not like fire-breathing punching-bag angry, but part of me still has a hard time believing that H did what he did.

Our anniversary was during my week off. We went out to lunch and dinner ourselves. I got pretty angry with him at lunch, just thinking about the last few anniversaries-- he listened to how I felt, apologized, begged me really to stop thinking about the past and to focus on the now, told me he loved me, etc. I was able to set it aside for dinner and we had a nice time. We had this tradition before of choosing a song for our playlist every anniversary and I had decided not to say anything about it. Before the A, he was always the one to come up with a few songs for me to choose from and then during the A he didn't give a $hit about it (of course). I was curious if he'd remember and bring it up. He did, asked me on the way to lunch about it, had an idea for a song. It's funny in retrospect-- that conversation was what launched me into my angry recollection of the past three anniversaries, but now that I type it out i'm connecting that it was actually his loving behavior and doing what I'd hoped he would-- remembering the song tradition-- that spun me into that negative space. I'm pretty much giving myself a break for having those feelings because I come by them honestly, but I also don't want to sit in the space of negative reminiscing forever. I know my H thinks it is unhealthy and sincerely wishes I could let it go and focus more on the present.

After our anniversary and my negative reaction (which had the A on my mind for a few days) I decided to go back and read my thread from last year's anniversary, to see how things were different. They are very different. wow. I feel reluctantly grateful for the progress, the reluctance because there is still a big part of me that is angry it happened in the first place. I was very curious to know if I'd feel any fear or uneasiness reading back from that time, since it was just a few weeks after our anniversary last year that AP messaged him and he fell back off the wagon, but I don't. Gut check is clean.

I do believe he's 100% in this with me now, which is different from last year. I still feel like if he'd only actually truly cut everything off with her the first time around, I would be far less angry and more trusting now than I am. He feels like it was a process he had to go through, going to the very edge of separating and peering over the edge and realizing he that was not what he wanted in order to be wholly here and knowing in his heart that he wants to be here with me. I'm like, I guess, but there was significant additional damage done to me during that whole extra exploration process you did, and so that is now a part of our reality too that you'll have to deal with. A less understanding and trusting May than you would have had.

WF, I found a post you wrote me and WOW, it has even more resonance now than it did:

Originally Posted by wayfarer
You know you will have to let this go someday if you want that MR 2.0. My bff tells me this every time I get caught up in my anger or fear. And I'm starting to make it a mantra on my road to forgiveness. There is going to come a point in the future where you have to deal with your pain, and fear all alone without involving H any more. He can't be beholden to your process over the A forever. And that's a sh!tty thing to say. Because let's be real he should be. But if you want to move past this and get to that MR 2.0 in full there really will come a time when you have to be alone with those feelings and process them and not drag him in to it, because your negative feelings about the A are going to go on far longer than his negative feelings about reinvesting in the MR.

I remember reading this back then and thinking nah, no way, he's the one being slow... and he was. But I had a delayed reaction, I guess. And now I'm the one who can't let it go. I know this is my work to do. I'm just not sure exactly how to do it other than just doing what I'm doing and not trying to skip ahead.


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
Page 9 of 10 1 2 7 8 9 10

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