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A Message from Michele
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Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917763
04/14/21 12:16 AM
04/14/21 12:16 AM
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may22 Offline OP
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may22  Offline OP
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Thanks, LH. I know. Nothing in life is guaranteed, really. This is the hard lesson we are all learning, I think.

I guess I'm less concerned at the moment with grasping this new reality-- it is truth. I got it. I'm more thinking about how I heal, how I let go of the past and of fear, how I live my life and love again freely even with this knowledge in my back pocket. I refuse to let my H's choices take that away from me. That's what I'm working through at the moment. His choices are on him. My choices, and my own healing, are my responsibility and that is squarely where I'm focused at the moment.

Also, I'm not defending my friend or her decisions. I don't agree with them at all. I actually met up with her wondering if the story was going to be the other way around, that her H cheated on her and that was why they were Ding... but I was very wrong. I just said it to note that it was a wake up call for me in a way, because in my mind I have demonized all WASs and here's one who isn't a horrible person. She's a friend. Just like my H isn't a horrible person. They've both done very $hitty things to the people they love. Are they irredeemable? Do I ditch my friend because she's done this? Or tbh it seems like she is in need of a friend right now, a non judgmental one.... anyway. Just sharing these things that have come up for me recently.

M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917765
04/14/21 01:11 AM
04/14/21 01:11 AM
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CWarrior Offline
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May, wow, deep.

I imagine it was triggering to hear your friend tell you those things. When a friend is doing something wrong that hurts others, it can be hard to figure out how to react. You have a good head on your shoulders.


May'19 - separation. | Dec'19, Oct'20, Jan'21 - painful breakups. | Jan'21 - freedom!
"We the ones who play hard, we live hard, we love hard, we light up the dark." -- Kesha

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917766
04/14/21 01:25 AM
04/14/21 01:25 AM
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LH19 Offline
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Truthfully it’s just the reality of life. Your friend is making decisions based on emotions and not logic and reason and there will be consequences at some point. You are in your early 40s so you will start seeing this more and more.

Within 25-50 years the institution of marriage will be gone IMO and people will be legally bound together with legal contracts choosing to renew every 3-5 years. Most won’t make it to the 4th amendment.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917782
04/14/21 02:13 PM
04/14/21 02:13 PM
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wayfarer Offline
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Hello my sweet May,

I've missed you!!! I'm so excited for your week of nothing break!! I had one of those before I took my current position in a much lower stress job than the one in juvenile justice. It was absolutely bliss.

Things seem to be progressing with H, and what seems to be a really healthy way. You guys are navigating this uncharted territory with out professional help pretty well. I think that's pretty huge, and you should be proud of that. Imagine how much work you're saving the MC by learning to communicate and turn inward instead of outward while you both heal!

There a couple things I wanted to offer up if I could:
Originally Posted by may22
I'm more thinking about how I heal, how I let go of the past and of fear, how I live my life and love again freely even with this knowledge in my back pocket.
So in the beginning of these $h!tshows we're asked repeatedly to stop controlling and drop the rope on our spouses. Over and over we're told and have to tell our selves we can't keep them tethered to our expectations or ourselves. They have to do them. We have to do us. This side of the disaster, for the few of us that make it here, the rules are different, but still the same. My dear you have to drop the rope, that tether you have to the fear and the heartache of the past. The thing about falling in love is it's falling, unaided, with no safety harness. It's all or nothing standing on the edge and jumping in. Like LH said, yeah H could break you're heart again or you could move on and that guy could break your heart. H is already showing you he's scared you're going to change your mind. He's just as afraid as you are to let go and give in to the love here. Honey, all you can do is decided that you're willing to risk your heart here and let go.
Originally Posted by may22
. I just said it to note that it was a wake up call for me in a way, because in my mind I have demonized all WASs and here's one who isn't a horrible person. She's a friend. Just like my H isn't a horrible person. They've both done very $hitty things to the people they love. Are they irredeemable? Do I ditch my friend because she's done this? Or tbh it seems like she is in need of a friend right now, a non judgmental one.... anyway. Just sharing these things that have come up for me recently.
This friend right here was a WS. People make bad decisions. People hurt and flail and do lots of things they said they'd never do. While there are some WS/WAS around here, and out in the world, who are truly awful humans for the most part they are just very fallible human beings. Just like all LBS aren't angels regardless of how some people like to frame themselves. Given how things are still very triggering to you, you'll have to decided if you can tolerate supporting your friend through this. And you are coming in with a pretty strong bias maybe you need to disclose that, and she can make the decision on whether or not to lean on you through this on her own. Maybe you can be objective and a little removed and supportive. That's just something you'll have to feel out as you go.

Thinking of you often XOXOXO

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917803
04/14/21 07:00 PM
04/14/21 07:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
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may22 Offline OP
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(((wayfarer))) wish I could call you IRL.

I hear what you're saying about dropping the rope in this new way. It feels really different from the earlier dropping of the rope, somehow-- like even as hard as that is, in the end you feel like you're pulling inward, gathering strength, depending on no-one but yourself for your happiness and wellbeing. You become the rock, the lighthouse-- the imagery is all of solidity and groundedness. And this feels like stretching out and letting go and being vulnerable all over again.

Truth be told I'm not quite ready for that step yet. I see it out there. I want to get there. But not quite ready to take the jump, and I think I'm okay with that.... just want to be sure I'm taking the right steps in that direction and not overly picking at the wounds of the past.

And for both WF and CW... it was weird to talk to my friend, but it actually wasn't really triggering. My comment about ditching my friend was more of a response to LH's sarcastically calling her amazing. Honestly? She is an amazing person for a lot of reasons. And I'm clearly not in a position to judge her since I'm working on forgiving my husband for something similar. I listened to her whole story, validated, am helping her look for a place. She clearly needed someone to talk to and even though she *said* things were amicable between her and her H, they're NC excepting the kids and the D and she made a whole bunch of comments about not knowing what he was up to. Another single friend of hers had found him on Tinder and screencapped his profile-- she showed it to me and was really weirded out that he was OLD but knows she has no say in it. So I think things aren't as rosy in single land as maybe she thought it would be. (Note for LBSs... NC sure is effective. And don't OLD as a tactic. If I had to categorize her response, it was more thinking he was desperate and lonely than moving on.)

Anyway. All to say that I think I was a good friend to her and put my own $hit aside and can probably continue to do that with one caveat-- I don't know that I could if she was in an active affair and leaving her H for her AP in real time. That I don't know if I could do. But her A was seven years ago, they tried to work it out and at least from her perspective, they couldn't. That is actually what scared me the most from our conversation. Felt like a reminder that I need to put in the hard work on myself and my R to get to M2.0-- even though things are feeling much better between us, we still have a long ways to go and I should not take anything for granted.

xx M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917806
04/14/21 07:46 PM
04/14/21 07:46 PM
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I think I’ll chime in here because I have some personal experience with this. I have people very close to me in the same situation as your friend. It made feel very torn to see that people who were very near and dear to me and inherently good people do what my ex did to me. Slightly different of course, but it was really difficult for me to reconcileZ
Those people who are near and dear to me still are. I separated our relationship from that of their marital problems and decisions. It wasn’t and hasn’t been easy though. Your friend could be an amazing person to you and friends around her, and still do something immoral to someone else. Some people can separate that and some can’t

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917807
04/14/21 08:10 PM
04/14/21 08:10 PM
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LH19 Offline
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Originally Posted by may22
She said the pandemic hadn't helped but that she had gotten to an age (42) where she realized she wanted more, she was BFFs with her husband but nothing beyond that, that they'd been separated seven years ago for four months and she felt they never really worked through their issues after that, that they'd come back together out of convenience more than for their relationship. Turns out she'd had an A back then, left her H, the AP was also married and wouldn't leave his wife, that the A was incredibly intense and going back to her H was just really blah to be with someone she wasn't in love with.

How in the fuch is this an amazing person? She goes running back to her husband because her piece of $hit OM didn't have the b@lls to leave his W. Then decides to divorce her so called best friend because she can't get her affair high off her "best friend" because life has been tough in a pandemic. She is going to get everything she deserves you mark my words.

Last edited by LH19; 04/14/21 08:11 PM.

M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: may22] #2917808
04/14/21 08:25 PM
04/14/21 08:25 PM
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We humans are multi-faceted. At the same time I was acting like an arse to an ex 5-10yrs ago, I was simultaneously leading a charitable not-for-profit group and volunteering on both my kids' sports teams and at school. I am trying to lead a more consistent life. I've definitely faced similar challenges to May and Ginger reconciling how friends and acquaintances behave towards different people.


May'19 - separation. | Dec'19, Oct'20, Jan'21 - painful breakups. | Jan'21 - freedom!
"We the ones who play hard, we live hard, we love hard, we light up the dark." -- Kesha

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: LH19] #2917833
04/15/21 02:06 PM
04/15/21 02:06 PM
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wayfarer Offline
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Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.

Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) [Re: wayfarer] #2917834
04/15/21 02:19 PM
04/15/21 02:19 PM
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SteveLW Offline
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.


I think this is too holistic a look at "good and bad". You've mentioned this in other people's threads too. You are right, very few (maybe genociders(sic) like Stalin and Hitler) are pure bad. But I would submit that a bad person, that treats those that he loves well is still a BAD person. Take racists. They typically love and nurture their loved ones, but have a strong hatred towards people of other races. I would submit that no matter how wonderful they are to their loved ones, they are still "bad" people.

If your point is that what is good or bad to individuals is purely subjective (one person's good is another's bad and vice-versa), I can see that point. But I believe in an objective standard of right and wrong. Good and bad. So I think it is a righteous judgement to say that someone that committed their life to another person, but then goes and does the most intimate things two people can do with a third party, is a bad person. No matter how good they treat their mom or their kids, etc.

Now wayfarer, obviously right-minded people can have a disagreement on the fine points we are discussing here, so please do not think I am saying my opinion is superior to yours, because it is not. But I do question how you square someone that does bad things, but also some good ones, being simultaneously a good and bad person? A little leaven raises the whole lump.

Last edited by SteveLW; 04/15/21 02:20 PM.

M(52), W(53),D(17)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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