Steve, I think you're right about the defense mechanism. I have been thinking a bit though about what it takes to truly change. For the LBS, the BD can be the catalyst for change-- something big enough that rocks you to your core and allows you to examine your own behavior and beliefs in a way that you normally wouldn't be able to do. For you, being able to drop the defensiveness and realize how you were treating your wife and daughter was in fact abusive is enormous. (BTW, I really admire how you've worked on your R with your daughter-- that is really wonderful.)
For the WS, the conventional wisdom seems to be he/she has to hit rock bottom to have that same impetus to change, the A has to fizzle out and they see for themselves what they've lost, etc.
Ginger, I wonder if in that case, in terms of future behavior and change, it doesn't matter that much if the impetus to change and the realization of what he could lose was triggered by being caught, or came up of his own conscience? It seems like all internal work to me, that might be easier to do if triggered by a major external impact, like a BD for the LBS or for the WS, either hitting rock bottom or realizing in a flash at discovery what they've really put at risk. In my H's case, he confessed at every trickle truth step on his own. I never would have known of her existence if he hadn't told me. I knew he was lying on a couple of business trips and had seen her when he told me he hadn't, but I didn't confront him, just tucked away that knowledge. So he decided of his own free will he didn't want to live a double life anymore (though didn't know which life he wanted to choose)--- but the fact that he drove this himself vs getting caught and being sorry he was caught-- I don't really think he's any more remorseful because he told me on his own. IDK. It's hard to know. It seems like a really personal path that they may or may not walk, and the gravity of their situation-- the WS's equivalent of a BD, though it probably doesn't come all at once like a BD, though the realization of it may-- probably influences the likelihood of them doing the work.
Tom, I have no doubt that my H is not truly contrite. He is absolutely wrestling with guilt over his behavior and trying to figure out how to connect his image of himself as a good person with what he did. But he's not wholly remorseful at the moment. In my book anyway.
I also think none of us really know how we would respond in the moment when things actually happen. I never in a million years would have thought I'd still be here with a cheating H. My h didn't think so either. Maybe it is getting older and seeing things less black and white. Knowing that we are all capable of making grievous mistakes and hurting other people. Being a parent and shifting my primary focus to my children was a big, big part of this for me. But things are never as simple as they seem from the outside, I think.
OG, I know exactly what you mean. If I put myself in their shoes.... dang, that is haaaaard work. My H has said that part of the reason he kept the A going and was so driven to continue the R with her is that he felt like if it turned out it was just a fantasy or he decided to end it and stay with me, that it would have meant that all those decisions he made to start and continue the A were wrong. That he hurt all these people for nothing. That, paradoxically, kept him in the A, even though continuing it was hurting more people and had the potential to impact the kids as well, because if he could convince himself it was meant to be with her, that somehow absolved him of the gravity of his actions. That it was somehow beyond his control. True Love cannot be denied, etc.
He also said that he thought it would be easier to forgive himself if he ended up with AP than if he stayed with me. Just a bit of a window into his tortured head, trying to knit together his understanding of himself as a person given his behavior. He (thought he) had it all figured out in his head for how to handle it if he left.
My H also describes the decision to stay as kind of a flash of understanding, knowing that he was on the very precipice of D and all he had to do was accept the apartment and we were done. And in that moment, knowing every obstacle was out of his way, he realized it wasn't what he wanted after all. (Ugh, even typing this makes the sheer selfishness and entitlement of his behavior grossly obvious to me.) Anyway, now he has the new work to do of figuring out how to reconcile his decision to stay with the fact he had an A in the first place, and for so long. And, like you, it is his work to do, or not. (And we have enough to worry about with our own healing and our kids, anyway!)
In my case, my H is good at compartmentalizing so I know that most of the time, he doesn't feel that shame and guilt from looking at me. We're able to have a good and fun relationship. But when I remember something and my demeanor changes and he realizes why, that is when he gets a wave of shame and guilt and wants to just shut down, rewind a few minutes to where we were. It has taken me time (and still a WIP) to continually work on letting go of any expectations for how he should/will behave in those moments. My healing is on me. I love how you're looking at Christmas this year and am taking inspiration from it. I think this might be my last with the oldest still believing and I want to make the most of it. H made gingerbread cookies last night for the kids to decorate today, all the presents are wrapped, running to whole foods for one last grocery trip and then will settle down to enjoy.
Merry Christmas, everyone! xx
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Steve, I think you're right about the defense mechanism. I have been thinking a bit though about what it takes to truly change. For the LBS, the BD can be the catalyst for change-- something big enough that rocks you to your core and allows you to examine your own behavior and beliefs in a way that you normally wouldn't be able to do. For you, being able to drop the defensiveness and realize how you were treating your wife and daughter was in fact abusive is enormous. (BTW, I really admire how you've worked on your R with your daughter-- that is really wonderful.)
Thanks. It still stings for me to think about it in that term, abuse. I'm deeply ashamed. In IC my C pointed out that I was parently to my W. And a vet here called me on treating my W like a child instead of a partner when I first posted here. My IC was very eye -opening to me about how I was perceived by both my W and D. The interesting part is I'm so much happier not being theguy I was! But it took IC for me to realize that I had been guilty of verbal and emotional abuse. Until then I was very defensive about it.
Last edited by Steve85; 12/25/2012:11 AM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Still reading, may, still amazed (but not surprised) by your growth and all the strength you’ve gathered. I was just remembering how I started posting here for the first time last December, and I was thinking of you as I stashed H’s ornaments in a separate box as I was decorating the tree this year. I love that you’re able to be present and savor the moments of what may be the last year of Santa for your D (and even after that, there is still all kinds of magic to be found this time of year, and you’ll create that together too). Enjoy those cookies, and Merry Christmas!
Happy New Year, May. Thinking of you and hoping that this year brings you ever more peace and joy and time spent thinking of other things that just belong to May herself. (Not to mention a lot less knowledge of all the twists and turns of H's mind and decision making process.... from over here it sounds like torture to have to know all that stuff!)
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thanks Gerda, Cardinal, Steve! Happy New Year, everyone! I hope everyone here is doing okay.
Gerda, yes... torture. But something I'm ready to let go of, for now. I decided I want to start this new year with a fresh, clean view of the world, and part of that is kicking AP out of residence in my head. I'm tired of her freeloading in my head space. I really don't need to think any more about her or how my H did feel about her or feels about her now or may feel about her in the future. I'm over it. So I'm giving it over to the Universe as you suggested. It feels really, really good. Thanks for your encouragement here... it's helped me a lot. I'm starting to think about what forgiveness might look and feel like, starting with myself.
Cardinal, thinking of you-- my daughter made meringue cookies yesterday and they're perfect. And, I remember packing that box of ornaments last year so clearly and am sending all my love your way knowing how that felt. (I actually did it again this year. I don't know why. It felt totally unnecessary and silly in my gut, but my head said it was just as easy to put his together so why not... he has no idea though, of course.) I can't believe it's been a year since we first "met!"
I read an article the other day about a 12 year old who wrote a letter to her future self about 2020, asking her future self to not take things like hugging people for granted. It made me think of how difficult the past year has been for so many reasons, some related to the pandemic, some not. There are a lot of things I'm grateful for in the past year, and one of them is the community here, without which I would have struggled far, far more than I already have... so thank you.
Love, M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
In my case, my H is good at compartmentalizing so I know that most of the time, he doesn't feel that shame and guilt from looking at me. We're able to have a good and fun relationship. But when I remember something and my demeanor changes and he realizes why, that is when he gets a wave of shame and guilt and wants to just shut down, rewind a few minutes to where we were.
May, I know some time has slipped by since you made this comment on Christmas Day. My two cents - your husband will never come to grips with his failings as long as he compartmentalizes it and goes into some sort of denial when he faces it. You mentioned that he is a faithful Catholic, if I recall? I'd recommend that he find a local Catholic men's support group (OK, it will have to be via Zoom) where he can talk about things, especially his A. It's my sense that he will not fully get past it if he is denial about it. Those men will hold him accountable, which hopefully will help him be accountable to you as well. Also, when his actions are placed in the perspective of the failings of all the other men, he should begin to feel less shame. He will find parallel stories and hear how the other men saved (or lost) their marriages or others in their lives.
If I learned anything over my years, it's that suffering alone is not a sign of strength -- look at what DB has meant to all of us. Also, that as we stagger through our lives and all the complications that go with it, we need the support of men and women who can hear about our failings and our fears, and support us through recovery. A men's group will provide some level of safety for him to begin those initial steps.
I don't disagree with you, but that is his work, not mine. I can't do it for him or suggest it or engineer it. When he's ready to figure out how to handle this, he will, or he won't. My job is to focus on myself and my kids and keep an open mind about the future, maybe with him, maybe not if he never does the work and I reach a point where I'm no longer willing to stay. But I'm committed to staying in my lane as best I can.
Cheers, M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I don't disagree with you, but that is his work, not mine. I can't do it for him or suggest it or engineer it. When he's ready to figure out how to handle this, he will, or he won't. My job is to focus on myself and my kids and keep an open mind about the future, maybe with him, maybe not if he never does the work and I reach a point where I'm no longer willing to stay. But I'm committed to staying in my lane as best I can.
Cheers, M
Dang, you're right! If there's anything DB has taught us it's to work on the things we control and let the rest go.
Still ... an anecdote. About 15 years ago I gained a lot of weight. I was 50 pounds over my high school weight, 30 pounds over a practical adult weight for my height. My wife (e.g., STBXW) knew I was sensitive about it and didn't want to talk about it. But she'd heard my complaints looking in the mirror, and one day put a Weight Watchers brochure on my pillow. I chucked it. A month or so later on she put an article on my pillow by a man saying how much WW had helped; while that wasn't strictly one of my objections, reading the article by another fellow got me over the hump. I went a few Saturdays later, and the rest is history. I lost nearly all the weight.
What am I saying? You're right, discussing it with H might not be appropriate. But maybe, as you see him softening, and things improve, you can indirectly steer him that way. Or have his best friend suggest it. Or his priest. Just thinking out loud.
Happy New Year and for you I think it will be a good one!
Happy New Year May! You are still growing and are so strong. I'm so happy to see you letting go of things that occupy your mind and are not the healthiest for anyone to dwell on. I hope the kids had a wonderful Christmas filled with memories they will cherish forever. Much love to you and your family May and stay safe.
KG
LBW 32 - me WW 31 T 7 M 4 No Kids 4 dogs
Separated 1y Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
