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Originally Posted by 1hedlite
Steve,

Yes, I absolutely have internalized it, and I'm going nuts. It colors my whole world. The thing is, my husband tells me outright it's my fault. He says my personality turns him off. I admit, I am angry. You know how someone might say about someone else, "She's always so uptight. She needs to get laid"? Yeah. I'm a married woman, the wife of a handsome and able-bodied man, and I haven't gotten laid in nearly 2 years, and I am angry about it. The more we go without sex, the angrier I get, the more righteous of a position he's in to say it's my fault he can't have sex with me, and the more we go without sex. It's a vicious cycle.


Would you say that being angry makes you more or less attractive to him? I was very angry and bitter about our SSM too. And then I realized through watching the bald TV psychologist from Texas that my reaction to our SSM was further cementing our SSM! In other words, being angry, bitter and resentful wasn't working for me!

Drop the anger. It is exacerbating your problem, not helping it. It is like using motor oil on acne.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

He says he can't have sex with me because he can't get over things I said or did that hurt him. However, he has also said or done things that hurt me that I've never gotten over, but I was obligated to have sex with him when he wanted it, even if it meant painful sex for me.


Drop the pariah act. Truth is that there is plenty of blame to go around. You aren't an innocent victim in this, nor is he. So stop trying to play the "he did it first" game. Again...motor oil on acne.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

For a while, we wanted to blame low T. At first, the numbers were a tad low but not definitively so. Then, a couple years later, they were rather low and maybe significantly so. So he went on hormonal treatment, and now the numbers are within normal range. But more or less, he has always had a tendency to characterize the issue as a failure on my part to seduce him.


These things are very complex. And I also do not like "ranges" for things like this. One man's normal is another man's low T. I know the medical profession spends a lot of time on ranges. But trying to fit all humans into the same box doesn't work. I knew a woman that lived into her 90s with triglycerides (part of the lipid profile) in the 1000 range. Drs will tell you that if you don't keep your triglycerides below 200 you are going to die earlier. Maybe she would have lived to be over 100 if she had lowered them. The point is that the "normal" ranges aren't foolproof.

Does he blame you for that WHEN you bring it up. Or has he just said out of the blue. "You know, if you were better at seducing me...." My guess is that his comment on your failure to seduce him was a defensive response to you brining the problem up.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

My husband is in IC. However, I wouldn't be surprised if terms like "divorce" and "co-parenting" and "50/50 custody" get bandied about there. As far as our relationship is concerned, anything unpleasant is always my fault, and I'm sure his experience in IC just serves to drive that home as well as what a terrible wife I am. He does not have the introspection, self-reflection, self-awareness it takes to own up to anything unpleasant with regard to me or our marriage. He would rather blame me. This has always been an issue. I will probably say more about that later.


This is pure conjecture. Most ICs are pretty good and sifting through the blaming, etc. Be glad he is in IC, so many LBSs would kill to have their WASs in IC.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

Yes, he absolutely is walking around with the weight of the world on his shoulders. More about that later.


This is why the less pressure you put on him, the better.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

I know I'm vulnerable to other men. The idea of cheating has always been abhorrent to me. But recently, a man who lives in a different state flirted with me over DMs on Twitter. I don't know his name or what he looks like, but it made me feel good in a way I hadn't felt in a very long time. It was harmless banter overall, but I didn't think it would sit right with his wife. So I told him to tone it down. And I haven't heard from him in a while.


Avoid this like the plague. Nothing complicates a R with someone than introducing a new person into it. If your MR ends in D, there will be plenty of time for this later.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

I always thought the DB book was like a "new and improved" version of DR. Are they very different?


I believe it is the other way around. DR is a new and improved version of DB. We typically recommend reading both, but definitely reading DR.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite

The day after our fight, my husband was outside doing yard work all day long. I took our toddler to run an errand and go for a walk in a touristy part of town. Shortly after we got back home, my husband walked in the door. Usually, after a fight, it is awkward between us, and we kind of avoid each other. But for some reason, when he walked in the door, this thought came to my mind out of nowhere along the lines of: What if my son had a wife he didn't want to be with, and what if his wife rather disliked him too? It made me have compassion for my husband in a motherly fashion, and I gave him a kiss, just a peck on the lips. I swear it wasn't pursuit. He seemed to appreciate it. I was on the verge of tears, but I don't think he noticed. We've been getting along overall, but I still get edgy. I'll try harder to not get edgy.


I have no problem with this. Maybe it was a little bit of pursuit (since you initiated) but your sitch is a tad different than others here. I would certainly recommend talk and touch charges (google them). Especially talk charges. You guys are missing a connection and subtle ways to reestablish that could help.


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DB was the first. DR is newest. I felt they were very similar, but DR is more refined. Get on Amazon and read the intro to DR. Michele talks a little about the difference.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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I am a firm believer that we all get into relationships to fix ourselves. The other person reflects issues that we can address.

We can't change other people, but we can change how we behave and how we interact with them.

Focus on you and what you can control.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by 1hedlite
He says he can't have sex with me because he can't get over things I said or did that hurt him. However, he has also said or done things that hurt me that I've never gotten over, but I was obligated to have sex with him when he wanted it, even if it meant painful sex for me.

As a man who lived in a SSM with a wife who was unable to be romantic, sensual, or sexual, I will say categorically that this is an excuse, that there is a separate reason underneath the surface. I do believe that my ex's sexual hangups were the reason our marriage began it's slow decline in the first few months after we returned from our honeymoon. And I can only guess what the cause is, although I think I figured it out once she left me.

Your husband has anger issues and lots of others, too. Especially if he blames you coming and going. Are you certain that he doesn't have good reason for his anger? Did you stray from the marriage in the past? Does he resent the fact that you had prior lovers before marriage? Have you flaunted such?

Originally Posted by 1hedlite
For a while, we wanted to blame low T. At first, the numbers were a tad low but not definitively so. Then, a couple years later, they were rather low and maybe significantly so. So he went on hormonal treatment, and now the numbers are within normal range.

Never underestimate the rage and frustration that a man can have if his biology conflicts with his image of being a man. I had a brother-in-law like this. He had serious anger problems but they all derived from his feelings of inadequacy. He would blame his wife and his family and everyone but himself. It was incredibly obvious.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite
But more or less, he has always had a tendency to characterize the issue as a failure on my part to seduce him.

I find this deeply disturbing. He is projecting on you his own inadequacy. He is refusing to have sex, and blaming you that he isn't interested? It's good that he is in IC, he needs it.

Originally Posted by 1hedlite
I know I'm vulnerable to other men. The idea of cheating has always been abhorrent to me. But recently, a man who lives in a different state flirted with me over DMs on Twitter. I don't know his name or what he looks like, but it made me feel good in a way I hadn't felt in a very long time. It was harmless banter overall, but I didn't think it would sit right with his wife. So I told him to tone it down. And I haven't heard from him in a while.

Well, I am not surprised that you are thinking like this but should you decide to have an affair to make him jealous, or to fulfill your raging sexual desire, you need to realize that you have left DB boundaries.

I wonder if there isn't more going on here than meets the eye. Sometimes childhood sexual abuse, or date rape, can lead to huge sexual issues. Only you would know if such is the case. Not that it happened to your husband, but if an older man or woman abused him as a child, this could lead to major-league feelings of anger and inadequacy. Or maybe he has mother issues that are unresolved; especially if he thought his mother might be sexually loose or slutty after an affair or a separation/divorce from his father.

I'm going to make a suggestion that is not according to DB principles. It might not sit well with you, but it's known to work. Nancy Missler (a Christian woman, yes I am a Christian) wrote a book that said that when a husband and wife are in chronic conflict, often the best way to fix it is for ... this is the hard part ... the woman to make the first move, and the woman to sacrificially serve the man for some period of time. Even if she is the one being wronged. It really doesn't take much, it just takes swallowing a little pride for the sake of the marriage.

How does it work? Without complaining or expecting to be acknowledged for it, change your appearance, behavior, and attitude. Start dressing really well around the house, better than just your normal baggies or sweats. Wear perfume, do your hair nicely. [Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.] Spend time making more elaborate meals. Pick up after him without complaining. Avoid the usual traps you have that lead to complaining and bickering. Stop talking about sex, and stop making overtures toward sex. Give him more of the sweet MTM kisses that you mentioned above (MTM = Mary Tyler Moore kisses, the kind of chaste sweet wifely kisses that you saw on the Dick Van Dyke Show). If you have daily or weekly routines, keep them up but maintain a positive attitude.

He will notice, of course. What you want him to finally do is, after a week or two, ask you "why are you so different?" Then you give him the truth. You love him and you didn't think you were honoring him, as a man, husband and father enough. So you decided to improve yourself a bit. And it's been fun, and I'm thrilled you noticed, you tell him.

The point here is that someone needs to break the ice with a whole lot of love and selflessness. And why not you?

Once you melt down his exterior, and the two of you can finally cry and hold hands together, now you have a view to the future ahead.

Final point -- one of the principles you should expect is that things will never be the same again, even if your marriage survives. Such would be the case here too.

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Always interesting when newcomers give firm advice to other newcomers here.


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Originally Posted by BenB
Always interesting when newcomers give firm advice to other newcomers here.

Maybe some newcomers, while they might be reeling from their relationships, have some wisdom or experience to impart.

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Dear Tom,

Women are not rehabilitation centres for broken men.

Quote
Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.


I'm sorry, can you please explain this comment so my silly little female brain can comprehend what you mean?

Quote
I'm going to make a suggestion that is not according to DB principles. It might not sit well with you, but it's known to work.


Guess what, Tom? I did this. It didn't work! It just made my cheating ex-husband believe he was so wonderful that two women were begging for his attention. What a lucky boy he was! And because I had no inkling that he was in fact cheating, it just made him despise me for being so pathetic. How thrilling to put one over his fat, ugly, boring stay-at-home wife. Yes, those are direct quotes! Caring for an infant? Pfft, that's for the non-special, non-wonderful, non-lucky boys! Thanks to my grovelling, my ex-husband felt empowered enough to inform me that I'd never been good enough for him and I wasn't the wife he deserved. All because he had another younger, slimmer, funner woman blowing smoke up his ass. And guess what? Eighteen months after abandoning me and our baby, he's cheating on her too.

Being pretty won't keep a man.
Being funny won't keep a man.
Being sexy won't keep a man.

The ONLY thing that keeps a man is to marry a man who wants to be kept.

PERIOD.


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Originally Posted by scout12
Dear Tom,

Women are not rehabilitation centres for broken men.

Quote
Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.


I'm sorry, can you please explain this comment so my silly little female brain can comprehend what you mean?

Quote
I'm going to make a suggestion that is not according to DB principles. It might not sit well with you, but it's known to work.


Guess what, Tom? I did this. It didn't work! It just made my cheating ex-husband believe he was so wonderful that two women were begging for his attention. What a lucky boy he was! And because I had no inkling that he was in fact cheating, it just made him despise me for being so pathetic. How thrilling to put one over his fat, ugly, boring stay-at-home wife. Yes, those are direct quotes! Caring for an infant? Pfft, that's for the non-special, non-wonderful, non-lucky boys! Thanks to my grovelling, my ex-husband felt empowered enough to inform me that I'd never been good enough for him and I wasn't the wife he deserved. All because he had another younger, slimmer, funner woman blowing smoke up his ass. And guess what? Eighteen months after abandoning me and our baby, he's cheating on her too.

Being pretty won't keep a man.
Being funny won't keep a man.
Being sexy won't keep a man.

The ONLY thing that keeps a man is to marry a man who wants to be kept.

PERIOD.

Scout, I touched a nerve and I didn't mean to set you off. I don't disagree with most of what you say, by the way.

Still, even Michelle's books mention (I forget where, somewhere 2/3 the way through DB I think) that breaking through the ice is the hardest thing to do, especially the "why should I give in first?" She doesn't make a specific recommendation as to which gender should do the breaking, though, meaning that either can or should try. Nevertheless, I do believe that women are naturally better healers than men, so that's why Nancy Missler's suggestion made some sense. However, in 1hedlight's case, her husband has some major league problems that are not, in my view, caused by his wife.

Still, 1hedlight is trying to break through, and wants to preserve the marriage, and I thought I'd make the suggestion. There really is little to lose. If it doesn't soften his heart, and just turns him into a more arrogant and entitled pr-ck, then at least she learns that perhaps the marriage isn't worth saving.

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Originally Posted by scout12
Dear Tom,

Women are not rehabilitation centres for broken men.

Quote
Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.


I'm sorry, can you please explain this comment so my silly little female brain can comprehend what you mean?

Quote
I'm going to make a suggestion that is not according to DB principles. It might not sit well with you, but it's known to work.


Guess what, Tom? I did this. It didn't work! It just made my cheating ex-husband believe he was so wonderful that two women were begging for his attention. What a lucky boy he was! And because I had no inkling that he was in fact cheating, it just made him despise me for being so pathetic. How thrilling to put one over his fat, ugly, boring stay-at-home wife. Yes, those are direct quotes! Caring for an infant? Pfft, that's for the non-special, non-wonderful, non-lucky boys! Thanks to my grovelling, my ex-husband felt empowered enough to inform me that I'd never been good enough for him and I wasn't the wife he deserved. All because he had another younger, slimmer, funner woman blowing smoke up his ass. And guess what? Eighteen months after abandoning me and our baby, he's cheating on her too.

Being pretty won't keep a man.
Being funny won't keep a man.
Being sexy won't keep a man.

The ONLY thing that keeps a man is to marry a man who wants to be kept.

PERIOD.

Scout, I touched a nerve and I didn't mean to set you off. I don't disagree with most of what you say, by the way.

Still, even Michelle's books mention (I forget where, somewhere 2/3 the way through DB I think) that breaking through the ice is the hardest thing to do, especially the "why should I give in first?" She doesn't make a specific recommendation as to which gender should do the breaking, though, meaning that either can or should try. Nevertheless, I do believe that women are naturally better healers than men, so that's why Nancy Missler's suggestion made some sense. However, in 1hedlight's case, her husband has some major league problems that are not, in my view, caused by his wife.

Still, 1hedlight is trying to break through, and wants to preserve the marriage, and I thought I'd make the suggestion. There really is little to lose. If it doesn't soften his heart, and just turns him into a more arrogant and entitled pr-ck, then at least she learns that the marriage isn't worth saving beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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Originally Posted by scout12
Dear Tom,

Women are not rehabilitation centres for broken men.

Quote
Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.


I'm sorry, can you please explain this comment so my silly little female brain can comprehend what you mean?

Quote
I'm going to make a suggestion that is not according to DB principles. It might not sit well with you, but it's known to work.


Guess what, Tom? I did this. It didn't work! It just made my cheating ex-husband believe he was so wonderful that two women were begging for his attention. What a lucky boy he was! And because I had no inkling that he was in fact cheating, it just made him despise me for being so pathetic. How thrilling to put one over his fat, ugly, boring stay-at-home wife. Yes, those are direct quotes! Caring for an infant? Pfft, that's for the non-special, non-wonderful, non-lucky boys! Thanks to my grovelling, my ex-husband felt empowered enough to inform me that I'd never been good enough for him and I wasn't the wife he deserved. All because he had another younger, slimmer, funner woman blowing smoke up his ass. And guess what? Eighteen months after abandoning me and our baby, he's cheating on her too.

Being pretty won't keep a man.
Being funny won't keep a man.
Being sexy won't keep a man.

The ONLY thing that keeps a man is to marry a man who wants to be kept.

PERIOD.


Scout, there are no doubt louses, of both sexes, that it isn't worth trying to save with. We have a couple of current examples on this forum of that, from both sexes. There are those that look outside of the marriage when things get tough. And then there those that look outside of the marriage.....just because. The first DBing can potentially save the MR. The latter, DBing is for the LBS to save themselves.


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