Since my final divorce hearing is in less than a month, I thought it was time for a fresh title.
Yesterday's changeover was a bit awkward. X picks up S2 at 6:30am. This plan was designed over a year ago when I had to leave for work at that hour. Now I work from home, and the early morning pickup once a week is kind of a nuisance, but X has stalled on implementing a new agreement which would eliminate this visit.
So yesterday, S2 climbed into my bed around 5:30am. I checked my phone and went back to sleep expecting to be woken at 6:15am by my alarm. Next minute, I woke up naturally and checked the time - 6:45! Argh. One missed call from X but my phone was on silent. I quickly called him and he answered on the first ring. "Hello" he barked. I apologised sincerely and said I'd have S2 out in a minute.
Threw the phone down and roused the little boy, who was not pleased to be woken from his slumber. He grumbled and cried as I forced him into clothes, and as I hustled him towards the front door he started to wail "Please pick me up, I need a cuddle!" So I took a deep breath and took a minute to connect with him before handing him over. X didn't say anything when I apologised again.
S2 told me that OW had breakfast with them that morning, so I've got no idea what's going on there.
Regarding Christmas-- I've drafted an email response along the lines of the suggestions received here. I'm glad my thoughts were aligned with everyone else's. I was planning to send it yesterday morning, as I do most of my other emails in the hour before work when I'm child-free, but didn't want to rock the boat further after the awkward changeover. I'll send it Sunday when S2 is with X.
The only reason I want it finalised quickly is because there's not currently a legally enforceable agreement. Meaning if X decides to withhold S2 again, he can without recourse. I've been trying to get this new agreement enshrined since the weekend he withheld him in August. I pointed out that the increased time can begin immediately and his child support will be reduced immediately, but that hasn't had any effect. Yes, it would have been nice to have had this finalised before things got bumpy with OW. I tried!
Regarding his mother-- he said I promised her that X could have S2 this Christmas. It's simply not true. Given that I expected to have S2 every Christmas up until last week, it's a claim that holds no water. And I find it quite manipulative to invoke family members in a custody discussion because he knows that holds a lot of emotional weight with me. Like messaging my stepdad asking him to tell me to do the right thing. That was distasteful. And now this. Regardless, S2 and I have had Christmas organised for a while now as we have to work around multiple different schedules (yay for blended families!) so it'll be X's turn next year.
I know it seems like this is a high-conflict situation, but he has actually folded quite easily on the majority of negotiations. I state my position, he says his piece, I respond coolly and calmly with either compromise or explanation, he goes silent. After a couple of weeks, I pick up the thread again, he ignores the previous issue, and moves onto the next. So we plod along. The problem is that Christmas is the final issue, which I believe is why he continues to kick the can down the road.
The only reason I want it finalised quickly is because there's not currently a legally enforceable agreement. Meaning if X decides to withhold S2 again, he can without recourse.
It is really uncomfortable not having a legally enforceable agreement with kids. It can play into a lot of fear and distrust. I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
Originally Posted by scout12
I find it quite manipulative to invoke family members in a custody discussion because he knows that holds a lot of emotional weight with me. Like messaging my stepdad asking him to tell me to do the right thing. That was distasteful. And now this.
Very manipulative.
I'm sure he has a justification for what he did in his own head. It's convenient to be able to live life without being self-aware about one's own cognitive distortions.
Originally Posted by scout12
I know it seems like this is a high-conflict situation, but he has actually folded quite easily on the majority of negotiations. I state my position, he says his piece, I respond coolly and calmly with either compromise or explanation, he goes silent. After a couple of weeks, I pick up the thread again, he ignores the previous issue, and moves onto the next. So we plod along. The problem is that Christmas is the final issue, which I believe is why he continues to kick the can down the road.
Well, it's not high-conflict because you have chosen not to feed the fire. DB at work!
I completely understand your frustration with trying to negotiate with this type of person. It can be really maddening. I think you are handling it perfectly.
Thanks U! I hope freedom is on the horizon for you, too.
With the start of a new thread, I forgot to say a big hi to our friend OwnIt-- so glad to see you back here! Your lovely post gave me a welcome boost last week. I hope you stick around again.
Back to my sitch. X picked up S2 this morning as usual. I reviewed my email and sent it. Not long after, I received a response and it was more of the same nastiness:
"Yet again you've gone back on your word" "I will be taking S2 two years in a row to make things fair" "You know as well as I do that 5pm changeover means that S2 will be tired and grumpy and have to go straight to bed"
Which is all nonsense. The irony of being chastised for not honouring a prior agreement, let alone one that doesn't exist, by him!
All I can do is reiterate what was said in the previous email, I suppose. X is due to bring S2 back in two hours, so I think I'll wait to respond until he is back in my care. Or maybe later in the week. I still fear his reactions. But he knows that I'll go back to communicating through my L if he is abusive or aggressive, so we'll see.
I wanted to encourage you not to send your Rude Dude anything when S2 is with him. I noticed once when I did that that my Rude Dude started firing off similar and very long texts while my D11 was with him, which meant his rage was seeping over their visit and no doubt traumatizing her even if it was just simmering under his surface. And just in general that he spent like an hour of their visit composing these stupid diatribes. So now I leave a window of like two days before her visit and then during her visit where I don't respond to any insanity or inanity.
It will not work to negotiate visitation with a Nuddy Buddy. Surely my experience is a convincing testimony! Why are you corresponding with him or responding to him about that? I blocked mine from e-mail and only use text, and only for arranging timing. If he brings up anything else, I either ignore it or tell him I can't discuss that with him and he will need to bring any issues to court, but when I had a lawyer I referred him to the lawyer. You seem to sometimes be getting tricked into negotiating with a terrorist and then trying to justify yourself based on his delusions, and it is truly pointless and will only reduce your life span.
If you want to say anything, I would just say, "I really don't want to weaponize S2, and I know we both love him very much. Let's move the discussion to the lawyers and just stick to the schedule til we figure out any changes. Have a fun visit!"
That said, maybe you can shift one thing and make him feel like he won and end that morning thing -- could you add to something like the above -- "But since I am working remotely, we definitely could do a later start time for the morning visit so he wouldn't be grumpy and tired when you pick him up."
Last edited by Gerda; 11/22/2005:15 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
"Yet again you've gone back on your word" "I will be taking S2 two years in a row to make things fair" "You know as well as I do that 5pm changeover means that S2 will be tired and grumpy and have to go straight to bed
Bait... all of it.
Originally Posted by scout12
I still fear his reactions. But he knows that I'll go back to communicating through my L if he is abusive or aggressive, so we'll see.
You know, people say things like "FEAR = False Expectations Appearing Real" or "fear is not real" but the fact is that it is truly exhausting dealing with people who employ these emotionally manipulative techniques (whether they are just angry or actually have some sort of personality disorder or something else).
Why are you corresponding with him or responding to him about that?
I’m confident I can handle this on my own. X doesn’t have a lawyer. I do, but obviously it costs money when she corresponds on my behalf. The last time I used my lawyer as a shield, X became enraged and abused both her and me over email. I’m trying to manage this to prevent it escalating to that point again.
When I said I fear his reactions, I meant fear for my safety, and S2’s. I meant family annihilation reactions. Chris Watts-style. Scott Peterson-style.* You’re not wrong, Unchien, about the mental exhaustion in dealing with people like this (and I don’t mean to downplay at all what you’re going through) but there’s a different level of danger when the male is the antagonist. I live with this fear on a daily basis and especially when S2 is in his care— so yes, Gerda, that is a good reason to stop responding to emails during that time.
My goal is to keep it out of mediation and definitely out of court. Something like 98% of all custody agreements never see the inside of a courtroom in Australia, so I’m not too worried. I mean, we have agreement on 99.5% of the parenting plan! I don't rise to the bait and I don’t address any accusations. Grey rock has become second nature. I have hope.
Parenting question for the vets.
Tonight when I put S2 to bed, he said “I don’t like Dad”. I asked why. He said “Because I only like Mama”. I replied “It’s okay to feel however you feel. I love you no matter what. But you know it’s okay to like both of us at the same time”. He also asked me if I loved his dad. I said “No, honey. I used to love him, but he’s not my friend anymore.” This unleashed a barrage of “why”s but I steered the conversation elsewhere. Did I do okay?
He has been verbalising more positive thoughts about his dad recently eg. “Dad is my friend” to which I always respond positively. I think it’s a good thing he feels that way.
*This fear could be influenced by watching too many Dateline episodes. Not really. Maybe a little bit.
He also asked me if I loved his dad. I said “No, honey. I used to love him, but he’s not my friend anymore.” This unleashed a barrage of “why”s
You handled it brilliantly up until this point. This is where a child is trying to figure out how, if his parents could fall out of love with each other, could they fall out of love with him.
Also I wouldn’t say something like “Daddy’s not my friend” as he’s likely to repeat that to your ex.
Perhaps a better approach might be something along the lines of “sometimes grownups stop loving each other, but mommies and daddies ALWAYS love their children” or, since that’s not 100% true and your little smart cookie might notice that, you can just tell him “but I will ALWAYS love you” and point to how YOUR mom still loves you.
As for the comment about liking you best - normal little boy stuff. Not necessarily a sign of anything off, especially since he didn’t give any obvious issues as examples. Little boys love their mommies.
Oh, and stop watching dateline. Be aware, but so far your ex just seems to still be focused on “winning”. Once things are finalized I suspect things will calm down more.
BTW what’s your relationship like with your ex MIL? If it was good, and if she’s a reasonable person, you might try communicating with her directly on the Xmas thing, as ex is likely either misinforming her or using her as an excuse. If she doesn’t know about his cheating on you btw, you should tell her if you think it will put her more in your corner. At the same time though, blood is thicker than water. Don’t count on her, but you explaining to her how equitable the Xmas plan is might reassure her. ( Your ex might be painting you as some horrible person who is going to keep their grandchild from them).
Tonight when I put S2 to bed, he said “I don’t like Dad”. I asked why. He said “Because I only like Mama”. I replied “It’s okay to feel however you feel. I love you no matter what. But you know it’s okay to like both of us at the same time”. He also asked me if I loved his dad. I said “No, honey. I used to love him, but he’s not my friend anymore.” This unleashed a barrage of “why”s but I steered the conversation elsewhere. Did I do okay?
He has been verbalising more positive thoughts about his dad recently eg. “Dad is my friend” to which I always respond positively. I think it’s a good thing he feels that way.
You did fantastic on the first part of S2's questioning. Perfect responses. But on the final question regarding your feelings, I agree with being completely honest with kids. And I also agree with KML-- S2 might be a bit too young to understand that Mama can love someone and then not love them. Young children are narcissists by design and every question is them trying to make sense of THEIR world and their place in it. (Rather than really wanting to know your deep feelings or the world at large). Having said this, I am not encouraging you to reframe the question for S2 or change your answer unless he asks again. Too much focus on something makes kids nervous.
You are doing great with encouraging a R between S2 and his dad. And I truly believe that once things are settled with the custody agreement and the D, you will find yourself much less bothered by everything to do with exH and that will show in every aspect of your life: questions from S2, your reaction to H's behavior and your fear of retribution from H.
Having said that last part, if you feel like you might be in any sort of danger, I strongly encourage you to take appropriate steps in getting things documented-- can you require that both you and H get psych evals done prior to finalizing the custody agreement? Have you spoken to your psychiatrist about your fears and ask for suggestions? It is not completely uncommon in the US for psych evals to be a part of a parenting plan-- it tends to be more palatable when both parties are subject to them. And certainly since H's 'kidnapping' episode, that would be an easy sell to any court system here.
Perhaps a better approach might be something along the lines of “sometimes grownups stop loving each other, but mommies and daddies ALWAYS love their children” or, since that’s not 100% true and your little smart cookie might notice that, you can just tell him “but I will ALWAYS love you” and point to how YOUR mom still loves you.
Those are good examples! I felt totally out of my depth with that question and especially being asked “why”.
Originally Posted by kml
BTW what’s your relationship like with your ex MIL?
It’s non-existent. I sent her a message in March to thank her for her kindness in welcoming me into her family but that I was filing for divorce after finding out about X’s affair. I made a point to say I would never keep S2 away from his dad and would always encourage his relationship with their family. She wrote back (after confronting X, unbeknownst to me, and him denying it) a brief message saying she was glad I’m moving on, she loved X and S2, and would keep in touch. Never heard from her again.
When X kidnapped S2, my mum called her to ask if he knew where they were. She said that X must be so fed up being denied access that he just had to take him. My mum was shocked and told her that I’d been offering overnight visits since the start of the year, but X had yet to take him. X-MIL told her that wasn’t true and my mum said “I helped Scout write the email.” She got off the phone pretty quickly after that. So no, she’s not a reasonable person and she doesn’t know me at all if she believes I would do that.
I have absolutely zero doubt that X has smeared, trashed, and destroyed my character to his family. Their view of me is based on his word and not what they know of me as a person. But they didn’t know me very well. X didn’t tell them he even had a girlfriend until we’d been dating for three years and living together. My interactions with them have always been surface level because that’s how they interact as a family. I always thought it was a weird dynamic and very different to my own family.
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can you require that both you and H get psych evals done prior to finalizing the custody agreement? Have you spoken to your psychiatrist about your fears and ask for suggestions?
I don’t know if that’s a thing here. X would NEVER agree to that. He thinks that field of science is a waste of time. I haven’t needed to see my psych since April (except for a one-off appointment after the kidnapping incident) but I could do that again. I know that family annihilations are extreme events and probably unlikely to happen. However there was an incident earlier this year in my city where a man trapped his ex wife and kids in their car and set them all on fire then killed himself— over a custody dispute. It really rattled me at the time. Too close to home.
