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Hey Benji, come talk to us.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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First of all, I just want to say - wow! All this help and advice so fast, it really gives me optimism! Thank you all, you fantastic people! I’ll try to address most of the topics you shared, sorry if I miss something.

@Steve85
Thanks for the recommendations - I immediately got Michelle's book "The Sex Starved Marriage" and started reading it!

I also read about Talk/Touch charges and started practicing them very discreetly today.

When it comes to your questions about hedonism - you might be right, and we might just be the people who think they are hedonists. My primary intention was to emphasize that we enjoy a lot of similar things that we have been investing our mutual time into, while neglecting our sex life, unfortunately.

@BenB - added Intimacy & Desire by Dr.David Schnarch to my list as well

@Mumin
I am not in IC for a while now, had a few months relapse a year ago, but it lasted just for 2 months and then I stopped with it again. So no IC for more than a year now.

And I take what you said very seriously now - I did start reading the books, but I’ll go back to Step 1 and first go through all relevant threads.

@AnotherStander
Thanks for the recommendation, added Five Love Languages to the list as well!

@sandi2
Sad to hear that you went through a lot of this stuff. I hope you were able to get all this great advice and guidance and managed to get to a point where you feel good again.

I started working on improvements immediately - at least for the small stuff like bad jokes, going to the toilet with an open door and similar, and she praised this herself yesterday saying that she feels that I am doing something to improve and address her complaints already. This is hopefully a good sign.

I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc. I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.

@scout12
So sorry to hear that you were going through a similar sitch with your H and how it all unfolded. I wish I had the knowledge to give you some advice how to cope with this, but this is so new for me that I feel like I’m learning to walk again...

I am really not even thinking about D at this point and am ready to do whatever it takes to save our MR. I just hope she will not lose faith and give up down the road. Because I can only imagine how hard it is for her, feeling how she feels, and not feeling sexual attraction for me. It probably makes her less motivated to work hard on this then me…

I do have some updates as well:

Besides the talk/touch charges and controlling the things she was complaining about, I also started working on self-improvements in general - I started exercising more, as I want to get back in great shape and feel great physically, and am focused on delivering good results at work for the past week or so.

I am not pressuring her in doing anything really, just going with the flow. Giving her occasional compliments, kisses and touches. She does feel a bit stiff, and sometimes not in the mood to sit close to me and touch me.

But we did have sex once in meantime, and it was her initiative to do so. I am not sure if she did this just to “get me off her list of duties” for the next few weeks, I was really surprised when this happened. Honestly, I felt like it was my first time - I was petrified that I am going to do something wrong. So it wasn’t such a great experience and it was short, but it opened up a discussion. She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive. She says that she feels like there was a certain “quantity” of attraction she felt for me, but that all of that was “spent” throughout the years, and she is now not sure if and how this can be restored. She is afraid that it is gone for good and cannot be restored. This is the thing that frightens me the most - her constant repetition of the phrase that somehow those feelings of attraction were all “used-up” and she sees no clear way of restoring that. She said she hopes the therapist will give us some exercises that would help igniting this again…

We will be going to a “date” in a few days, going out for dinner - just the two of us. I did not initiate this because of anything I read, but she mentioned she misses eating a certain dish she likes, and I instinctively suggested going for dinner this week. She immediately accepted.

I also have a few questions regarding some of the things you all shared:

Do I brief her about the activities I have started and loop her in (talk/touch charges strategy, books you shared)? I did mention to her that I am taking this seriously and that I will be spending some time looking up good literature and materials we can use, and she said she would be interested to participate as well.

How should I act in terms of physical contact now? Should I approach her sexually when I feel the urge, or I should suppress that for a while now? Or should I talk about this with her and ask her how she would like me to act, and what not to do?

I apologize if some of these questions will be answered in the threads of the books you all shared - I just did not have time to go through all of that yet as I’ve been working a lot.

Again - thanks for all the support and help, this really makes me feel better and more optimistic!


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Originally Posted by Benji
I started working on improvements immediately - at least for the small stuff like bad jokes, going to the toilet with an open door and similar, and she praised this herself yesterday saying that she feels that I am doing something to improve and address her complaints already. This is hopefully a good sign.


It is, just don't expect immediate results. It's going to take her time to believe the changes are real and not just "tricks" to placate her, after which you'll revert back. Stick to the changes and give her time to accept and believe them.

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I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc.


Yes exactly. It's a balancing act. I think the 5LL book will help in this respect, it shows how to build that up slowly over time in non-sexual ways.

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I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.


Again, 5LL will help you here. Most men's "primary" LL is PT (physical touch). So they assume their wife needs that too, so if their wife distances then they try to double-down on touchy/feely stuff and sex. But her LL may be something completely different like WoA (words of affirmation) and PT may repulse her if her WoA needs aren't being met. It's important to appeal to her in HER love language.

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I am not pressuring her in doing anything really, just going with the flow. Giving her occasional compliments, kisses and touches. She does feel a bit stiff, and sometimes not in the mood to sit close to me and touch me.


It sounds to me like you're trying too hard in the PT department. You might want to ease up on that and give her some space until you can read SSM and 5LL. Too much PT will feel like pressure to her.

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She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive. She says that she feels like there was a certain “quantity” of attraction she felt for me, but that all of that was “spent” throughout the years, and she is now not sure if and how this can be restored. She is afraid that it is gone for good and cannot be restored.


This is a PERFECT time to validate. She's opening up to you and letting you know her feelings, and that is GREAT! You should be intently listening and making validating statements like "Thank you for sharing this, it helps me to understand what you are going through, it sounds very difficult." The beauty of validation is she will feel like you are emotionally connecting with her, which is the thing she complains isn't happening. So that would be a huge 180.

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This is the thing that frightens me the most - her constant repetition of the phrase that somehow those feelings of attraction were all “used-up” and she sees no clear way of restoring that. She said she hopes the therapist will give us some exercises that would help igniting this again…


It's how she feels, it's not how she WANTS to feel, but she does anyway. Accept it and help her through it by listening, validating, and giving her time to work through this.

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We will be going to a “date” in a few days, going out for dinner - just the two of us. I did not initiate this because of anything I read, but she mentioned she misses eating a certain dish she likes, and I instinctively suggested going for dinner this week. She immediately accepted.


OK that's fine, just try not to be too pushy. And NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS, PERIOD! She doesn't want to feel pressured right now, and ANY R talk is pressure. If she initiates one then listen and validate. But your stance should be neutral on the matter. You don't bring it up. You don't have an opinion. This is about her.

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How should I act in terms of physical contact now? Should I approach her sexually when I feel the urge, or I should suppress that for a while now? Or should I talk about this with her and ask her how she would like me to act, and what not to do?


Read the books! You've got to lay the groundwork for her to want to have sex with you. THAT is what you should be focusing on for now, not the sex itself.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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That last paragraph from AS is all you need rn.
I would not initiate any sex till you have had at least om therapy session.
Work on yourself and everything surrounding sex.

Also did you look into No more mr nice guy??


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
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Hi Benji,

I've also been where your wife is. I was the LD partner in an SSM basically since our second daughter (now 8) was born. I can completely empathize with what your W is telling you. I also would sometimes really get into sex once we started, but had zero desire to start, which was really confusing for me. I think it is great she's open to talking about it with you and that you're so dedicated to working on it. I'm going to echo some of the advice you've received above that I think is especially important:

5LL-- very important and I would bet $100 that your W's primary LL is NOT PT. My H and I were in a similar dynamic where his is PT and mine is acts of service, but to me it got to the place where anytime he touched me I thought he wanted sex and would physically shrink away.

Originally Posted by Benji
I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc.

You see how you are equating meeting her emotional needs with touches and kisses? PT is very likely being perceived as pressure by her. If you don't want her to read the 5LL book right now, try different things (acts of service, words of affirmation, etc) to show her you love her and see how she responds. Tell her to put her feet up and make dinner and put the baby to bed yourself. Ask her about her day and really listen to her and validate. Give her a real, authentic compliment. Bring her a small, thoughtful gift. Observe her and see what makes her smile.

I really, really recommend Emily Nagowski's Come As You Are and maybe also Esther Perel's Mating in Captivity. If I had read Come As You Are when I was in the midst of the SSM, it would have helped me tremendously. I don't know that asking her to read this book right now is a good idea or if it will come off as pressure. I think reading the 5LL won't be perceived as pressure as much as the Nagowski book, but if she is truly interested in understanding more about female sexuality and desire, I strongly recommend it.

Reinforcing what Sandi says about listening to her and taking her seriously with the jokes. This is another thing my H would do that drove me NUTS. I think that showing her you care what she thinks by listening, validating, and then taking action to support her would go a really long ways.

Finally, I agree with AS-- no R talks, no pressure, relax a bit. I think you and your wife are on a great track to fix this.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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IMHO, she needs to feel relaxed when she's with you. If the focus is on always on sex, she's going to probably feel pressured. Some W's begin to pull away from any type of touch (even nonsexual) b/c they don't want their H to take it as a signal she wants to have sex.

Life can become routing and boring, which spills over into the MR. We have to purposely add spice. Make the time we have with other fun. Surprise once in a while with a little inexpensive gift, and tell her it made you think of her when you saw it. You can google lists of ideas how a H can romance his W. The tip, however, is that it needs to be on-going. I'm not saying you have to buy flowers every day, or take her out eat every weekend. Romance begins with your attitude. It's how you interact with her that makes her feel feminine and special. Flirting with her is very important, but do it during the day without any pressure. Keep things light and fun during the day/evening, and stay away from serious talks right before bedtime.

If things seem a little tense when it's just the two of you, then plan some activities that include friends. If she appears stiff when you take her to a candle lit dinner, then take her to some other type of environment to eat. Of course, being under lockdown, it's a bit challenging, but do the best you can. What does she enjoy doing for fun with a group or a partner? For instance, does she like board games? What did the two of you do together when you first dated her? Having fun with you, goes a long way in helping her feelings. She has to see that you aren't showing her a good time just to set her mood for sex. If that's the only time she sees your fun loving, charming self surface.......it's likely to bomb.

Living in a SSM is serious, but if there is a heavy atmosphere while around each other........I think things can get worse pretty quickly. Work on the relationship, first. Think of it as making love to your W, without the act of sex.

I am hesitant to encourage you to share with her some of things you'll read. Call me crazy, but I tend to feel it kind of takes away some of the affect. Make sense? It's like when a LBH eagerly tells his WW/WAW that he is working on himself. It's not necessary to announce what he's doing. Just do it, and she'll see the results.

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I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc. I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.


The book on the five love languages should help you. I think most men's primary LL is physical touch, b/c that's how they are wired. However, if physical touch is not your W's primary LL, don't expect her to have the same needs as you have. Go slowly with the touches, especially if there hasn't been much touching lately. Those touches should be nonsexual. In other words, the kind of touch you would give a female relative. If you sense her immediate stiffness from a nonsexual touch........it's going to be a very slow process. If you kiss her in the morning or bedtime, then just keep it light. No pressure! Don't start tongue kissing her tonsils right before leaving for work. Hopefully, that will come later down the road. But for now, keep it sweet, and no pressure. smile

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She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive.


She may have a hang-up with intimacy (since she doesn't want much foreplay and to get it over quickly). She may need individual therapy. She may need to see a hormone balancing specialist. It could be a combination of things that is affecting her. It's a delicate subject for the H to approach, b/c a lot of W's feel the H just wants her fixed for selfish reasons. frown I think some women don't know why they feel like they do.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi Benji,

You have been given great advise so far. Sandi2, AnotherStander and Steve85 are very wise and give stellar advice.

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Most of us came hear because our S wanted out of the marriage. I am not seeing that here, though you were headed there if you didn't address this problem.
I agree. I found this site back in march of 2008 right after BombDrop. I have learned so much since then. Read these threads:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092&page=all
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870386&page=all

You are lucky. She is sharing with you how she FEELS. Embrace this. Listen to understand her. Read the validation thread until it burned into your head. AnotherStander is the Validation king.


Neither one of you know why she has lost her sexual attraction for you. And it is OK that neither of you know why. The good news is that you can change your behavior and the way you interact with her to build up sexual tension. Learn how to be attractive and seductive. Know the difference between these.

Start by reading this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224


Things that work are counter-intuitive. You need to challenge everything you currently believe. Do not be locked into one way of thinking or behaving. This is not working for you right now.


I am in charge of the sex and romance department in my relationship. If the sex is decreasing, it means I am not being seductive or romantic with my lady. I am becoming less attractive. It is my behavior that I need to reflect on and change. I actually pull back my sexual advances and wait for her to get turned on by my behavior. These are learned skills that work. They go against my natural instinct. I pull back when I want to pursue.


Right now, put all of your sexual needs on the back burner. Repeat this to yourself "Nothing turns a woman off more than a needy man."

Do not be boring. She needs excitement in her life. Be that.



I wish you well and look forward to helping you through this chapter of your life.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Thanks for your support!

Since most of the people here suggested reading 5LL, I decided to wrap that one up first - I’m almost at the halfway point, and already have some ideas, but don’t want to jump to any conclusions before reading it all through. And immediately after, I’ll go back to reading SSM.

@AnotherStander

Thanks for bringing me down to earth. And yes, you are absolutely right - even I feel like I might be trying too hard in the PT department. Definitely easing up on that moving forward.

Last night I read a lot about Validation and really want to start applying that whenever I get a chance. But today we haven’t talked much anyway, it’s been a strange day…

@Mumin

Hadn’t had a chance to look into “No more mr Nice Guy” much yet, just read a review and a short summary. From what I read there - it definitely sounds like I am “the Nice Guy”, so this is gonna be the next book I read right after I finish 5LL and SSM. Thanks for the recommendation.

@may22

Sorry to hear you were going through the same thing as my W. I can only imagine how hard that was, looking at her now. She claims everything is ok, but I can see that she is a bit tense most of the time, and that our conversations are a bit too “formal” and not our regular conversations from before the “revelation”... I guess that is normal, considering that it’s just been a week...

Do you have any suggestions on what you would have appreciated from your H when you were going through this? What things had the best influence? And what was worst? How did things unfold for you? (I apologize if I'm asking too much)

@sandi2

I would like her to feel relaxed when she’s with me as you said, but it is not all up to me as you know even better unfortunately. smile

I am really doing my best to be positive, all the reading has a good influence on me and raises my optimism, but when I stand in front of her to talk, I can sense that she is tense… But I’m still completely avoiding any R topics. Just focusing on daily stuff, making jokes (not the ones that she dislikes) and taking care of our D. I’ve been having some really good time with our D for the past few days, doing most of the work around her.

I’ll try to take them out over the weekend somewhere nice where we can all enjoy some sun and nature - anything else with friends is unfortunately out of question, as my W is really avoiding any meetings and public places due to Covid, she is very strict on that one.

I accidentally saw her reading some article about sex issues women have in marriages, so she seems to be doing some research on her own as well. I don’t want her to feel now it’s all about sex, at least not because of me. But I’m not gonna push for any further discussion on this topic first.

@R2C

I hear what you are saying, thank you, I’ve been reading through your threads and everything you went through, and I can only admire how strong and self aware you are now.

And I’m definitely putting my sexual needs on the back burner for the time being - I don’t really feel like sex would be a good idea at this point anyway.

So a few thoughts I have so far:

The more I read about all of this - the less I have sex on my mind and am actually thinking about evrything else. How we’ve neglected romance and attraction in the past few years, without ever thinking about it and realizing (at least on my side). And we neglected it both. Just reading through 5LL made me feel like I am not getting my Emotional Bank Account filled either most of the time. We have sooo much room for improvement on both sides. I just hope she doesn’t lose faith and stays involved.

I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her - I might share 5LL once I’m done with it, as it seems like a good literature for anyone who wants to improve their marriage. I would avoid giving her any inputs why she should read it so she doesn’t get the impression that I’m telling her she is doing something wrong (even though I do feel like none of us is using the appropriate love language in the past few years like I mentioned before). She is a smart person, I think she will like this and actually think about her approach towards me. Or you guys think this is not a good idea?

We went on our planned “date” - it was pretty fine, we were laughing, looking at each other a lot and sharing a few compliments. It was the closest to our “normal” communication and behavior from before the revelation, since all of that happened. At one point she did raise the R topic carefully, saying something like “why do we often focus on so many irrelevant problems, while neglecting the really important relations in the meantime, until it gets too late to do anything”... It struck me a bit, but I just concluded saying “I agree, these are tough times and we often lose focus… But we should use moments of revelation to become better versions of ourselves, and learn from our mistakes to improve it all, since it is not too late”. She agreed, and we did not get back to that topic any more.

And finally - what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens? I know I am not going to be initiating anything. And I really don’t want her to do this forcefully because she feels the “responsibility” to please me. At this point I really don’t want her to suffer, even if that means not sex for a few months until we get some steady advice and guidance from the Therapist. But I also don’t want to reject her and make her feel even worse.


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Originally Posted by Benji

The more I read about all of this - the less I have sex on my mind and am actually thinking about evrything else. How we’ve neglected romance and attraction in the past few years, without ever thinking about it and realizing (at least on my side). And we neglected it both. Just reading through 5LL made me feel like I am not getting my Emotional Bank Account filled either most of the time. We have sooo much room for improvement on both sides. I just hope she doesn’t lose faith and stays involved.


Not sure if you've gotten to this part in the book yet, but he goes over how you need to focus on making deposits in her account and not worry about getting yours filled for now. Marriages get in trouble when both parties feel they have empty accounts and they're both sitting back waiting for the other to come fill their account. This is really the thrust of DBing as well- YOU need to do the work, not wait for her to. "It Takes One to Tango" as Michele says. And you are doing the work so that's great. Keep it up. Just don't have any expectations that she will come around immediately, it takes time. 5LL also makes the point that if you start making deposits in her emotional account then at some point she'll WANT to make deposits in yours. Not because she feels like she has to, but because she actually wants to. And that's when things will turn around for real.

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I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her - I might share 5LL once I’m done with it, as it seems like a good literature for anyone who wants to improve their marriage.


I would not share it with her. If you do, and then if you try and implement some of the things you read, she might see it as you trying to use "tricks" to get her back. Just keep it to yourself, at least for a while.

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We went on our planned “date” - it was pretty fine, we were laughing, looking at each other a lot and sharing a few compliments. It was the closest to our “normal” communication and behavior from before the revelation, since all of that happened. At one point she did raise the R topic carefully, saying something like “why do we often focus on so many irrelevant problems, while neglecting the really important relations in the meantime, until it gets too late to do anything”... It struck me a bit, but I just concluded saying “I agree, these are tough times and we often lose focus… But we should use moments of revelation to become better versions of ourselves, and learn from our mistakes to improve it all, since it is not too late”. She agreed, and we did not get back to that topic any more.


OK well first of all it sounds like you kept the date light and problem-free which is perfect. But don't forget to listen and validate! When you say "I agree, these are tough times.... etc." it sounds kind of like you're trying to put your own spin on what she said, right? Instead, try asking her how it makes her feel. Sad? Anxious? Worried? Whatever she says she feels, listen intently, and make validating statements about her feelings. THIS is what will make her feel like you're really listening to her and trying to understand where she is coming from.

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And finally - what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens?


Then have sex. If she initiates then go for it.

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And I really don’t want her to do this forcefully because she feels the “responsibility” to please me.


Let her worry about that. If she initiates then she either wants to have sex, or she wants to fill your needs, or both. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either. Don't surround it with unneeded drama! Just partake and enjoy it!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by Benji
I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her ...Or you guys think this is not a good idea?
Keep all your personal growth sources confidential for now. This is about your growth. Change you.

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what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens?
Enjoy it. I would start doing some research now in this area as well. After the encounter, you want her to be pleasantly surprised by your new improved behavior. Personally I have more fun getting my lady "in the mode" than reaching the "finish line".




"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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