Still Learning...

[Gerda]

My only suggestion is to see him as a guy you are considering dating. There is some potential there, but nothing is definite. You would never pretzel yourself like this with a guy you are considering. Don't do it with your H. I know it's so hard. But you should not be explaining yourself. No amount of explaining will ever satisfy him. Be busy and be breezy. If he wants to see you and you feel like it, do. If he acts like a jerk, just say, "Oh gosh, I don't want to hang out with you if you are going to act crazy" and pat his arm if you want and leave. LEAVE. The room, the restaurant, whatever it is. Don't participate in any drama. He is a teenager. And he is looking for reasons to hate you. No matter what you do, he will look for them and might believe them even if you are perfect.

Your child is amazing, amazing. My son understands everything but my D is selective and my H is working on her all the time, badmouthing me, so she is often confused, and I am often battling feelings that she is betraying me. Complicated stuff. So much easier when they can see things clearly.

[may22]

(((Sage)))

Forgive me but I'm going to say something that you may not like or agree with, but I'm going to do it anyway and feel free to completely disregard it if you want. I think you are pushing yourself too hard to be this zen master level co-parent who can have a beautiful, loving holiday meal with her ex and their children, and you just really aren't there yet. You want to be, and there are days and weeks when you can be, but it feels like every other time you see him or spend time with him he acts like an @ss, it goes south, and it takes a huge toll on you.

And, he clearly isn't ready to be that person either. He is confused and can't seem to handle even the tiniest bit of interaction with you. Two hours late to Thanksgiving, lies, crazy-making suspicion and questioning (and I still feel he has zero right to ask those questions of you, period), leaves early. He can't be the enlightened co-parent partner to you either. He's too attached and scared and completely at a loss about what he wants. (As your child sees.)

Why are you pushing yourself, and him, to get to this next level so quickly? I think you need more time to let yourself heal and stop irritating the scab. Would you consider taking a real break from him for a month? No in-person conversations beyond the general pleasantries, no phone calls beyond what is absolutely necessary for the kids? And once you feel totally calm and settled and ready to face whatever he gives you with equanimity, take another few weeks and then test the waters?

To me, it feels a little bit like what you're trying to do right now is piece with him, except your goal isn't a renewed MR but a perfect co-parenting R. But he's not capable of being that partner to you, just like he isn't capable of being your H. He doesn't truly know what he wants, I think, so he can't be all-in on the perfect co-parenting R because he's not totally sure he doesn't still want the MR, in some ways. And then OW and what does that all mean, and his children, and all the fears and confusion seem to be overwhelming to him.

I feel like that perfect friendly co-parenting DR is probably harder to achieve than reconciling in an MR and requires so many of the same ingredients-- shared goals, strong communication, trust, respect. I feel like you're pressuring him into this new kind of R and he just isn't ready. And then he acts like a jerk and you react and maybe you're not really ready for that place yet, either.

Your child is amazing, I agree with Gerda. To me it makes it even easier to put a stop to letting him treat you like this, because your child sees it and knows it hurts and you still go back for more the next day.

I don't get the sense with you at all that you're hoping he'll snap out of it and tell you he wants back in tomorrow... but I do think you are expecting/hoping he will be different in another way, whether it is stopping this ridiculous Spanish Inquisition behavior, stopping the lying, stopping the disrespectful treatment... and nothing you do can make that happen. My guess is he has enough self-awareness that he knows he's being an idiot about the jealousy thing and he still can't help it. He knows he's being rude by showing up late and he knows you know he's lying. He probably feels at some level pretty $hitty about all of that too. But he doesn't have the self-control to do anything differently, right now. Why do you keep giving him the opportunity to fail? It hurts both of you, I think.

I know I asked this before, too, but I'll ask it again-- what stops you from emulating Alison when you get the spew or the inappropriate questioning? Can you draw a boundary around engaging in these conversations and simply STOP when they happen-- walk away, set down the phone, calmly say this is not okay for you to treat me like this and then remove yourself from the equation?

I'm glad you're feeling better about the house and homeschooling and able to get some exercise in. It makes such a difference. I hope you're feeling a bit better about Thanksgiving and indulging in some leftovers and pie and Netflix Christmas specials for the weekend. xx M

[may22]

I slept on this and then wanted to add... I have 100% faith that you WILL get permanently to that place of enlightened compassion and be a beacon for others. It may just not be tomorrow, and there is no need to force it. It will come. I just think you need a bit more time to heal without H pressing on your bruises. xx

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

I am feeling low, confused and not so detached at the moment. I think I need to come up with some sort of conversation to stop this whole projection from being mine to deal with. Any suggestions welcome.

H’s projections are not your fault nor your problem. Let them go.

I am going to pass on some very wise words:

'mama, I see that Daddy wants to be around you, hugs you and acts like he wants the divorce to go away and then he starts to act weird again. That must be really confusing for you and probably makes you really sad.'

Listen to those wise words.

Yes, H’s behaviour is going to be confusing. Detach yourself from his behaviour and his projections. Time and space. Focus on you and your kids.

D

[Ginger1]

I’ve been on covid isolation too and devoid of all adult contact and actually spent thanksgiving all by myself. So I feel your pain, trust me. My exH actually invited me to thanksgiving with him and his wife ( which is his AP) ( it was my year to have our daughter, but I sent her there so she didn’t have to stare at the wall with me) . I politely declines, because without boundaries I wouldn’t have such a good coparenting relationship.

Which brings me to that aspect. I probably have one of the best coparenting relationships you’ll see here on these boards. And my ex probably did me the dirtiest. When I was pregnant with our first and only child , he was seeing her behind my back and left me for her when our daughter was 6 months old. On my case, the AP never went away. They married and are still married. I had 13 years of coparenting with my ex and his AP. Imagine that. I’ll cut to the chase though. The level of coparenting j have achieved came only after full detachment and not wanting him back at all. We are all friendly, his wife likes me, he likes me, and would just hang out with me if I were to allow, he all of a sudden after 13 years is very helpful and kind to me, helping with projects around my house, bringing me food, etc. I am the same way with him. But seriously, this degree and on this level cannot happen unless you have accepted the marriage is over and you yourself do not want this person back at all. And like I said, I have boundaries to keep it this way and one of those boundaries is never to celebrate a holiday together.

The comment your child made to you. It’s very observant. And I imagine what he said was his way of saying “ I’m also very confused by this behavior” and I am sure it truly is very confusing. Which is also why I limited playing family in the beginning. We did things like take her for Santa pictures together a d celebrate her birthday together and sit together at school stuff, and maybe 2 dinners together a year. But we knew it would be awfully confusing for her. It’s not anymore . She’s simply very happy to have 2 divorced parents who get along. I want you to think about what your child said. If it could be that confusing to you, how about them?

And on the messy house thing. I can’t help but laugh. I heard the same thing! And guess what. My house is decent and his is like a hoarders zone! His wife has a hoarding problem. I still have personal delight when I walk into his messy house and he walks into my mostly clean house . And I became obsessive after a while because the clutter bothered me. But I realize I live in an active home where people
Are living. Time spent with my kid was more important than having a perfectly neat house. My parents were also OCD clean. My dad is still alive ( mom is not) and I get crazy before he comes over because he will comment on my level of cleanliness and it’s not always nice.

Your kids are loved and cared for. That’s number 1 and trumps all.

[Gerda]

Ginger, OMG! You are a WARRIOR PRINCESS! WOW. Love the clean versus hoarder thing too.

Sage, I am sending you a big big hug today. I have my waves of low all the time. They used to last 24 hours per day, then 12. Now they are actually waves that come and go. Sometimes I have a whole day without them. A priest once told me not to see them with fear. He said -- If I had a broken arm and it hurt sometimes, I wouldn't be afraid I was going to break my arm -- I would know it's already broken and that the pain was coming from that. And that it would heal at some point. That helped me so much, to see my LBS pain that way.

Not that you don't end up writhing on the floor sobbing your brains out sometimes. But rain is good for the soil.

[cardinal]

Sending you big hugs, Sage. All of this advice is helping me too. Gerda, I love the broken arm metaphor. It’s just what I needed today, another way to think about this wave I’m experiencing.

[Sage4]

Thanks for the love and wisdom, dear friends.

My only suggestion is to see him as a guy you are considering dating. There is some potential there, but nothing is definite. You would never pretzel yourself like this with a guy you are considering. Don't do it with your H. I know it's so hard. But you should not be explaining yourself. No amount of explaining will ever satisfy him. Be busy and be breezy. If he wants to see you and you feel like it, do. If he acts like a jerk, just say, "Oh gosh, I don't want to hang out with you if you are going to act crazy" and pat his arm if you want and leave. LEAVE. The room, the restaurant, whatever it is. Don't participate in any drama. He is a teenager. And he is looking for reasons to hate you. No matter what you do, he will look for them and might believe them even if you are perfect.

So true, Gerda. Thank you for this. Especially the reminder that no matter what I say or do, he has his own narrative and I can't change that. I definitely would NOT be dating someone like him.

I think you are pushing yourself too hard to be this zen master level co-parent who can have a beautiful, loving holiday meal with her ex and their children, and you just really aren't there yet.

May, thank you for the 2x4, you are absolutely right. I have been thinking about what you said over the past few days and I think that maybe my detachment has allowed me to eclipse his current state and move into a space that he is not ready to be in with me. And maybe if I am really honest, I am not there yet either. I can handle things well when they are going OK, I can be the bigger person when there are small negative interactions few and far between, but I can't handle the big interactions yet.

And to further your comment, it is unfair of me to set him up for failure. To set both of us up for failure by expecting or hoping we are further along in the process than we really are. Part of me wants to keep the good times going because I see glimmers of his old self and glimmers of his second-guessing his decision. But the comedown is too hard when he reverts back to his spiral.

The comment your child made to you. It’s very observant. And I imagine what he said was his way of saying “ I’m also very confused by this behavior” and I am sure it truly is very confusing. Which is also why I limited playing family in the beginning. We did things like take her for Santa pictures together a d celebrate her birthday together and sit together at school stuff, and maybe 2 dinners together a year. But we knew it would be awfully confusing for her. It’s not anymore . She’s simply very happy to have 2 divorced parent

Ginger, thanks so much for stopping by my thread! I loved hearing more about your story and appreciate your insight. How are you feeling? Is your quarantine over yet? What a drag this whole pandemic is.

You are so right about boundaries and holidays. I like your blanket approach to holidays and I totally get why it works.

And thanks for pointing out the confusion my kids are also feeling. As much as I am suffering right now, they are suffering so much more.

Cardi, thanks for the hugs, friend. I thought of you on Thanksgiving and was happy to read your update on DnJ's thread. You sound so good right now, sprinkle some of your magic on me, ok?

Journaling:

I am terrible at boundaries right now. H wanted to come over this evening and talk to the kids about taking them on a mini trip for a couple of days this week. I should have said he could have the conversation over the phone, I have been keeping my distance since Thanksgiving, but I allowed him to come. Something he said to me in a tone of voice I didn't like made me snap at him and it spiraled from there. I am finding myself putting him and his needs first a lot of the time, even very subconsciously and covertly, and it keeps biting me

I am really digging into my soul and questioning my own motives: am I back to trying to 'nice' him back? There is really no other person on this planet I would allow to treat me like this and frankly no other person on this planet who would even consider treating me like this. And I have split my soul open looking for all the terrible, dark, mean sides of myself, the sides that would be deserving of being abandoned like this, cleaning up as much of my side of the street as thoroughly as I can. And I still can't find justification for what he is doing. I am not perfect, but I am nowhere near the devil incarnate he makes me out to be when he feels justified to do so.

Are his actions a projection of how he feels about himself? Or do I need to continue digging through his muck to find those threads of truth about myself?

[Gerda]

Sage, don't wait six years to start reading about narcissistic abuse like I did.

Your H is abusing you. Maybe it's an MLC, and maybe it's MLC combined with a personality disorder and maybe it's just the personality disorder that he couldn't control anymore.

Either way, reading about it will give you tools and clarity.

My journey started with learning how to love unconditionally and that brought me to faith. So maybe it's good that I didn't read about that stuff early on.

I am seven years in and I still have to reread the NPD stuff because I get confused too. I even have a counseling session with a NPD expert later this week so I can try to handle my next court appearance without the confusion you are expressing in your post here.

There is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HIS TREATMENT OF YOU AND IT'S NOT YOU.

Did you ever read CS Lewis' The Last Battle? There is a scene at the end that describes the MLCer perfectly. Your H can't see anything clearly right now, he doesn't see what you see. There is no point in trying to get him to see until he is able to see it for himself. Here is the scene. They are all in a place as beautiful as Paradise.

"Friends with them!" cried Eustace. "If you knew how those Dwarfs have been behaving!""Oh stop it, Eustace," said Lucy. "Do come and see them. King Tirian, perhaps you could do something with them.""I can feel no great love for Dwarfs to-day," said Tirian. "Yet at your asking, Lady, I would do a greater thing than this."Lucy led the way and soon they could all see the Dwarfs. They had a very odd look. They weren't strolling about or enjoying themselves (although the cords with which they had been tied seemed to have vanished) nor were they lying down and having a rest. They were sitting very close together in a little circle facing one another. They never looked round or took any notice of the humans till Lucy and Tirian were almost near enough to touch them. Then the Dwarfs all cocked their heads as if they couldn't see any one but were listening hard and trying to guess by the sound what was happening."Look out!" said one of them in a surly voice. "Mind where you're going. Don't walk into our faces!""All right!" said Eustace indignantly. "We're not blind. We've got eyes in our heads.""They must be darn good ones if you can see in here," said the same Dwarf whose name was Diggle."In where?" asked Edmund."Why you bone-head, in here of course," said Diggle. "In this pitch-black, poky, smelly little hole of a stable.""Are you blind?" said Tirian."Ain't we all blind in the dark!" said Diggle."But it isn't dark, you poor stupid Dwarfs," said Lucy. "Can't you see? Look up! Look round! Can't you see the sky and the trees and the flowers? Can't you see me?""How in the name of all Humbug can I see what ain't there? And how can I see you any more than you can see me in this pitch darkness?""But I can see you," said Lucy. "I'll prove I can see you. You've got a pipe in your mouth.""Anyone that knows the smell of baccy could tell that," said Diggle."Oh the poor things! This is dreadful," said Lucy. Then she had an idea. She stooped and picked some wild violets. "Listen, Dwarf," she said. "Even if your eyes are wrong, perhaps your nose is all right: can you smell that." She leaned across and held the fresh, damp flowers to Diggle's ugly nose. But she had to jump back quickly in order to avoid a blow from his hard little fist."None of that!" he shouted. "How dare you! What do you mean by shoving a lot of filthy stable-litter in my face? There was a thistle in it too. It's like your sauce! And who are you anyway?""Earth-man," said Tirian, "she is the Queen Lucy, sent hither by Aslan out of the deep past. And it is for her sake alone that I, Tirian, your lawful King, do not cut all your heads from your shoulders, proved and twice-proved traitors that you are."

"Well if that doesn't beat everything!" exclaimed Diggle. "How canyou go on talking all that rot? Your wonderful Lion didn't come and help you, did he? Thought not. And now — even now — when you've been beaten and shoved into this black hole, just the same as the rest of us, you're still at your old game. Starting a new lie! Trying to make us believe we're none of us shut up, and it ain't dark, and heaven knows what.""There is no black hole, save in your own fancy, fool," cried Tirian. "Come out of it." And, leaning forward, he caught Diggle by the belt and the hood and swung him right out of the circle of Dwarfs. But the moment Tirian put him down, Diggle darted back to his place among the others, rubbing his nose and howling:"Ow! Ow! What d'you do that for! Banging my face against the wall. You've nearly broken my nose.""Oh dear!" said Lucy "What are we to do for them?""Let 'em alone," said Eustace: but as he spoke the earth trembled. The sweet air grew suddenly sweeter. A brightness flashed behind them. All turned. Tirian turned last because he was afraid. There stood his heart's desire, huge and real, the golden Lion, Aslan himself, and already the others were kneeling in a circle round his forepaws and burying their hands and faces in his mane as he stooped his great head to touch them with his tongue. Then he fixed his eyes upon Tirian, and Tirian came near, trembling, and flung himself at the Lion's feet, and the Lion kissed him and said, "Well done, last of the Kings of Narnia who stood firm at the darkest hour.""Aslan," said Lucy through her tears, "could you — will you — do something for these poor Dwarfs?""Dearest," said Aslan, "I will show you both what I can, and what I cannot, do."

He came close to the Dwarfs and gave a low growl: low, but it set all the air shaking. But the Dwarfs said to one another, "Hear that? That's the gang at the other end of the Stable. Trying to frighten us. They do it with a machine of some kind. Don't take any notice. They won't take us in again!"Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the Dwarfs' knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each Dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn't much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but it was clear that they couldn't taste it properly. They thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a Stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he'd found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said "Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey's been at! Never thought we'd come to this." But very soon every Dwarf began suspecting that every other Dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarrelling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot. But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said:"Well, at any rate there's no Humbug here. We haven't let anyone take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs."

"You see," said Aslan. "They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they can not be taken out. But come, children. I have other work to do."He went to the Door and they all followed him. He raised his head and roared "Now it is time!" then louder "Time!"; then so loud that it could have shaken the stars, "TIME." The Door flew open.

[may22]

I am really digging into my soul and questioning my own motives: am I back to trying to 'nice' him back? There is really no other person on this planet I would allow to treat me like this and frankly no other person on this planet who would even consider treating me like this. And I have split my soul open looking for all the terrible, dark, mean sides of myself, the sides that would be deserving of being abandoned like this, cleaning up as much of my side of the street as thoroughly as I can. And I still can't find justification for what he is doing. I am not perfect, but I am nowhere near the devil incarnate he makes me out to be when he feels justified to do so.

Are his actions a projection of how he feels about himself? Or do I need to continue digging through his muck to find those threads of truth about myself?

Sage, my heart is hurting so much for you right now.

This is not on you. This is entirely on him. The idea of you spending time trying to figure out what is wrong with you to answer why he is acting like this... oh Sage. It really is making me feel something like despair.

What does your IC say about this?

I truly think more space and time from him will help both of you. Maybe it is easier for you to do this if you think about it less about being something you need to do for yourself, and rather think of it as something you're doing for others-- it being less confusing for the children and giving him the space he needs to not monster. The more he does this kind of thing the deeper he digs his own hole for himself.

But really, you should do it for yourself, because you don't deserve to be treated this way, you don't want your children to see their father treat their mother this way, and there is absolutely no reason to give him this power over you. You need to put yourself first for awhile. What happened to not your circus, not your monkeys? You're letting those dang monkeys in the house. Keep them outside.

(((Sage)))