Thinking of you today and I sincerely hope that you can find the courage to actually state what is on your mind. No matter how much it hurts, you've got to be honest w/S and the therapist. This will be the safest place to actually state what is on your mind. Do not be afraid to speak up for yourself and state the facts. Do not pussy foot around the dance floor in a passive manner. Be direct, maintain eye contact and keep your voice neutral. You can do this.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Andrew, adding to the pep talk. Sometimes you need to rip the bandage off to prevent greater pain in the long run.
Best of luck. I know you can dig deep and do what's necessary. If not now, Andrew, then when? As Job said, you're in the absolute safest place in the therapist's office to let it rip.
Carpe Diem.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Sometimes you need to rip the bandage off to prevent greater pain in the long run.
Excellent analogy! And you can use the (accurate) reasoning that you wouldn't want her to be making current financial decisions based on the relationship continuing when you don't think that's going to happen.
Andrew... Last year, if you recall, I was dating someone I knew was not right for me. I engaged in all kinds of mental gymnastics to make him right for me until finally I couldn’t lie to myself any longer and I ended things. Two months went by with only a few contacts and then he came back around. I knew he missed me. I knew that he probably wasn’t going to find someone anytime soon and he was lonely. So...I went down that road again and did a few more mental gymnastics to make it okay...and TBH, I liked the physical closeness which I hadn’t had with anyone in a long time. BUT...I still knew in my heart of hearts that we weren’t right for each other...so I finally broke up with him for good. It was hard because I HATE hurting someone BUT staying with him when I knew we didn’t have a future was hurting him even more. It wasn’t fun but when I finally made the decision and I stuck with it, it was like a huge weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. You will feel that way too Andrew. (((BIG HUGS)))
The counseling session happened. Some surprises, but not many.
I was pleased with the counselor. She was engaging, friendly and very professional. In asking later it turned out that S had only seen her once or twice and it was around when we started dating. I had the impression that she'd been seeing this person for years but like many things, the reality is a lot thinner than the story-line.
It was pretty plain to me that the counselor believed the same things about S that I did when we were first dating. A hard-working Single Mom who is doing the best she can. An entrepreneur. A sensitive person who is very spiritual and can see the "inner truth" about people. I think a some of this got tossed out by the end of the session but certainly not all.
There is a second session planned for the start of December. The counselor wanted us back earlier but on the one hand I felt that we needed to work on what we were given and also scheduling just didn't work.
I did my best to keep my mouth shut and listen and try to absorb things. I also tried to make sure that my core issues with household contributions and hoarding were heard.
When asked how committed we were to the relationship on a scale of 1-10, S said without hesitation 8. I was at 3.5 and there was some obvious waffling on that number. This got no surprised reaction from anyone which given that we were in to couples counseling might make sense. I think it concerned the counselor that this early in a relationship that we were in for counseling which it certainly should.
The counselor had a standard list of couples problems. We hit pay dirt on communication and finances and perhaps on substance abuse.
S said that she didn't take anything but then accepted the correction that she regularly smokes marijuana which caused a large raised eyebrow from the therapist. Prevarication that it "helps her sleep" and that she doesn't do it too often was given.
She was surprised that there were no parenting issues and supported my "these are not my kids" comment which I think bothered S. This lead into a discussion about how I felt that S's kids that didn't live in the house were to me guests and to S and the therapist (who has a young teenager) that they were labour to be dragooned.
On communication, it was her opinion that I am over-reacting to what I feel are smack-downs and that it points to some deep-seated problems from my youth. I'm willing to give her that one. S went into some detail on how I have a very selective memory and that she tells me lots of things that I forget or ignore. What she feels are just "conversations" I am taking as "fights" and "arguments".
S did go into detail on some things - how I didn't take her into consideration and how she was upset when I did things without checking with her. Although I don't need to check with her, I need to check with her especially if she indicated some interest. And I'm a jerk for not doing that and it hurts her.
For finances, I said that I was concerned about how we were always short on money and that it had been my expectation that S would be able to bring in enough to cover the expenses of her and her kids and that jointly we would be better off. I mentioned that expenses, especially on groceries had gone waay up and that having gone from a situation where I was supporting 2 grown men with good appetites where I was able to accumulate savings for working on the house and for nice vacations, with 4 people, two of whom hardly eat I'm now continuously broke.
S asserted that she is indeed open about finances and is contributing what she can and that her income had gone down - she threw out a number I don't believe but wasn't willing to argue. Groceries were because she didn't shop like me and only buy what was needed in the next week and felt it necessary to have lots of food "just in case". This is a hill that I feel is important to recognize but not to die on.
I was asked if I needed to see her bank accounts and said that no - I didn't need to see them and that I felt it necessary to trust what I was told. S said that she has shown me her "budget book" which to me reads that she's setting money aside which other evidence points to. I see no benefit though in digging into that muck. Either she's being honest, or she's not. It shouldn't require scrutiny and I refuse to walk down that path of policing the truth.
S for her part painted me as being overly complicated with finances, went on about charts and graphs and spreadsheets (I use a commercial program YNAB) and that she doesn't understand how it's possible to budget and then not spend everything. She also said that she was upset about the fact that I insist on paying down my credit card every month, something she doesn't understand the need to do. She said that she's trying and that the systems I use make sense but that she's not embraced them.
-----
S said that she upset at being painted as taking advantage of me. She pointed out that if she was looking at taking advantage of someone that she would have stayed with #3 as he makes "lots of money" despite going bankrupt twice.
The therapist supported her in that echoing what was my own original impression - that S would rather live in a cardboard box than be in that situation.
I'm glad though that that comment and impression that I have that I did say was being reinforced by my friends was heard.
For background the therapist asked how long it had been since our last relationship. I said 4 years + and S said 7. That caused a bit of a jaw drop from me and I interjected that she had had an attempted reconciliation for several months and there were lots of pictures around of them having been a couple. S didn't have much of an answer to that other than to say that they were "just dating". The therapist asked about her divorce and got a bunch of noise and prevaricating.
S dredged up quite a number of things that bother her. The house is a dump and needs a huge amount of fixing which I'm refusing to do. The back porch is falling down, the kitchen floor is peeling, there's no insulation and I have no interest in replacing the windows. She was quite animated about how crappy of a place this was.
A big thing for her was that she has no separate space and started crying describing how she needs to carry her piles of paper from room to room seeking a place to "work". As an aside she only briefly got such a space at her apartment, she did get a front room from a friend for her "store" but never actually opened it but rather used it as a place to get away to. She had been planning on using the room that S18 has as "her space" but then he moved in. She is upset that she has "nothing" and I have a fixed desk, chalkboard, and bulletin board.
The therapist asked about her business and got the "I've been really busy and then Andrew told me to put all this stuff in the front porch which isn't heated and blah de blah de blah." and then the crying started (yes).
We were running out of time (had actually gone over time) when I finally was able to mention that one of the things I struggle a lot with is the sheer volume of "stuff" that showed up here. The therapist asked if there was stuff in storage and when S said no, I corrected her that there was and that a literal truck-load had arrived from her former partner's place. She minimized that. It seems that her former apartment is now 2,700 square feet and not the 2,000 that she had said. I'd have to measure it but it probably was about 1,500.
I gave a specific example of a doll-house which hasn't been played with in probably 15 years and is in the basement. S stated first that it was actively being played with and then had to walk that back but it was pretty obvious that holding on to "stuff" was an issue that the therapist pursued. I also expressed concerns that there was going to be an incoming wave of stuff from S's Dad's house which got me a confused look from S and an initial denial. Then digging a bit deeper she started crying about how they had such nice stuff and she'd spent her life living with rejects from the land-fill and just wanted to have nice stuff for a change. When prompted about giving up some of the stuff she had to make room, she was confused and pushed back on that.
So - the hoarder issue, while not specifically called that is out there.
I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist. It seemed to be a bit of an eye opener to S.
-----
I was able to talk about how timelines had been compressed and that I was bewildered on how everything had happened so fast. How when pushed on S wanting to help and support me I proposed 8 months ahead of plan. How the move-in was similarly rushed. I talked about how I had had a vision of the happy life I wanted but that I had had no clue how to achieve it and how it all seemed to be suddenly pushed and "happen" and that I was very confused and overwhelmed about the whole thing.
The therapist identified me (correctly I think) as a "people pleaser". I do try to make sure everyone is safe and cared for which is how she described it. To me, that's a good thing.
I also used the phrase that I had "made a promise" as a reason to stick it out and work on it. S has heard this before and rejected it - for the reasons that all the people here have as well. The therapist also rejected this as a valid reason. So that's out there too - that the main reason I'm still trying is because of a sense of responsibility and duty. Which nobody is happy about.
I asked for help on how I could just "suck it up" and accept things as they are. Again, both S and the therapist vigorously rejected this as the wrong attitude.
And yes - I know that this has all been talked about here and similarly rejected. I felt that it was important to bring my own perspective of how I've been unsuccessfully attempting to cope.
It took some effort to change topics but I was also able to talk about how this has affected my health. The idea that my chest pains are panic attacks was supported by both S and the therapist. The therapist suggested that I work on grounding techniques and such.
I was also able to talk about how I had so much pride and was happy before. The therapist encouraged me to try to rediscover the things that gave me Joy - like walking. Pride she had more troubles with. Because a lot of my self-identity is wrapped up in my pride of my contributions to the community, my work, and how I was able to keep my home up she challenged me on that. The assigned homework is to consider how I would live if I was a homeless person with no job and no way to contribute - sort of a "Tom Hanks / Castaway" thing. I joked that Wilson would be well cared for and polished.
I have no idea how I will imagine this and told both the therapist and S that they were asking me to change the very definition of who I am and of the person I like. That I would look at this closely and seriously but that I didn't have any confidence that at 56 that I would so fundamentally redefine myself.
S's homework is to start checking out organization tips including two of my favourites - Fly Lady and Marie Kondo. S has seen some of Marie Kondo and has rejected that approach to "stuff" previously. Fly Lady is great but it requires a commitment. She was also told that if one thing comes in that one thing goes out - a policy I follow carefully for myself. She was very unhappy about that and I believe has rejected that as well.
The therapist was surprised at the low frequency of our sex life and when I mentioned that S often had back pain she poo-pood that as no good reason and admonished us to make some booty. S then pushed back that there were also kids in the house.
-----------
On the way home I made a point about talking about my Dad and how he was a kind soul who I admired but how he was pushed around and taken advantage of - in one case by a hoarder who was largely responsible for the ending of his moderately successful real estate brokerage. I tried to present this as just a story about someone who I missed but I'm sure that it was heard as an echo of what I see myself.
--------
S came to bed fairly early and was stiff as a board and we all (including the dog who was annoyed at the lack of space) had a poor sleep.
She is very sad today it seems and upset. I can only hope that this means that she is giving things a lot of thought.
She's here for the next few days but may well go back down to her Dad's place next week to work on getting it ready for a valuation.
I feel good that we had this session with the counselor and that I feel that I got heard. As I told S though - I'm not holding out any hope of fundamentally changing who I am - letting go of what was called "externalities" that are part of my identity and pride in self. I can't even imagine what that would be like but I will try to figure out what that means and what it would mean for me. I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.
Well - time for some lunch and perhaps a short walk.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Sounds like a lot of territory was covered in the first session. You both have homework to think about and come up with info for the next meeting. I do not think S will follow through with Fly Lady. It's too much of a way of life that she's not willing to do, i.e., bring one item home and get rid of one.
Andrew, some of the comments that S made really just rankle me. For one thing, if she needs space for herself, then she should be willing to clean up the mess that is downstairs and be able to find some space that she can work at. She can close the bedroom door and have that space to herself when you are working. Also, she knew what your house was like before moving in and to now throw up in your face how the house is...well...look at the place she was living in w/kids and animals and yes, her stuff. She's living far better now than she was.
I may be wrong in this...but S has a lot to mull over and she'll be doing a lot of that in the days to come and especially when she's at her father's place. I may be wrong, but I do not think S is going to be willing to do the hard, necessary work to make this living arrangement work. I think S is going to move out in the next 6-9 months. She's not happy w/your house, not happy about being accountable for cleaning up and going through her stuff and not happy because she's coming to realize that she can't manipulate you. She's realizing now that you are more aware of what she's got going on in the way of hoarding, etc.
Also, do not let her being a bit moody/distant get to you. She's acting like a very spoiled person at the moment and she's not happy that she's not getting her way. Just leave her be and go about your business. She'll either get over it or she'll move out.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
well....that's a lot to unpack, Andrew. Thank you for doing so in an open way. I'm sure it can't be easy to lay all of this out in a vulnerable way. I will have to read it again and actually process more, but a few things stuck out to me instantly: 1.) I was under the impression this was someone that S had worked with a good bit, so finding out that wasn't the case, again points to how manipulative S can be. Not sure what she gets from that, but just another example. 2.) How can one of you be at an 8 and the other at 3.5 and one of you be surprised by that? Seriously? What world does S live in that she thinks the way she lives, despite how often you have mentioned it to her warrants an 8 but you are at less than half that? That just strikes me as her being fairly out of touch with the reality of her situation. 3.) I wonder if therapy works for someone who spends much of the time "prevaricating", as you so eloquently call lying. I mean, if she's lying about it, is she going to work to change it or is she going to hold on to the lie to keep up appearances? 4.) Did I completely miss the whole pot smoking thing before? I know I have a much squarer view of that than pretty much anyone else on the board, but to me hearing that kind of makes sense with her overall general lackadaisical attitude toward life. 5.) I'm sure that you kind of gave us the highlights, though you did share a lot of information. Likely there are some things you didn't share, mainly in the interest of brevity, but from your entire account, it seems like both S and the therapist are expecting/asking YOU to make changes while S isn't really being directed to try to make any changes within herself. I don't remember exactly how you worded it, but S was shocked (or whatever word you used) about your views of her hoarding? That surprises me, as it seems to be something you have mentioned before, though maybe not actually using the word hoarder.
You have to make the right choice for you, but her tears and dramatics would be the final nail for me, if I were in your shoes, because whether my perception of how you portrayed the whole scenario is accurate or not (and likely not completely since I wasn't actually there and my bias is toward you and against S), S comes across in this post as being pushy and dramatic when she doesn't get her way and I get the sense that she went in thinking that it was going to be her and the therapist against you and she didn't like it when it was you and the therapist against her. (Now, I'm not saying anyone "ganged up" on anyone else, because that would be unprofessional, but I do suspect that S thought she had some perceived advantage that would win the therapist over to her viewpoint more often than not.) It just seems like a big old hot mess to me. Like I said, you have to make the right choice for you. I hope you are able to do that and get some peace from all of this.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
What job said!!!!!!!! I totally agree on the rankling part....that is some kind of nerve!
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.
Amen to this. Not that every relationship doesn't take a little give and take, but at this age, I wouldn't bother to be with someone if they weren't compatible. I wouldn't even be living with CMM right now if he didn't have stage 4 lung cancer.
AS for the other stuff - it really boils down to one thing, Andrew. She's a HOARDER. Hoarders cannot bear to part with their "stuff". I don't know why on earth you didn't just use this word with the therapist present, because it's the truth of the problem. And hoarding isn't going to be fixed by reading Fly Lady. Bad housekeeping can be fixed by reading Fly Lady if someone is motivated, but not hoarding. And you don't have until December to figure this out because S was clearly planning on bringing all of her Dad's stuff to your place. I suggest you make it clear to her that it needs to go into a storage unit that SHE PAYS FOR until you get this figured out.
Also - beyond the hoarding issue (which is THE BIG ISSUE) - you two are completely financially incompatible as well. She's actually upset that you don't want to carry a balance on your credit cards? She's an irresponsible child when it comes to money matters and she'll drag you down with her if you let her. No way would I ever marry someone with those financial attitudes and risk their debts becoming my own.
Also - I know it is party of her DARVO response, but the GALL of her to complain about your rate of house repairs when so much of your time is going into cleaning up after her and her brood!!!
Again - let me use the example of my sister, not that she's on the market because she's not lol. But just as an example of what might be REASONABLE to expect from an imperfect partner.
My sister is about your age. She's not a perfect housekeeper - in fact, I'd say it was one of her weaknesses. To be fair, this was exacerbated by her working two jobs until her husband died (full time as a school secretary and 20 hours a week at Sees in order to pay off their debts in advance of her older husband's retirement). So no, her sewing room might be overrun with fabric (she's a quilter) and her floors might not be vacuumed quite as often as they ought with several cats and a dog in the home, and her kitchen isn't always immaculate. Nonetheless, she routinely makes valiant efforts to get things back to order, intermittently follows Fly Lady, and if your dropped by her house unexpectedly, it would certainly not resemble a hoarding house - just a slightly untidy home. Last weekend she spent painting the shed by brother helped construct for the lawn mower etc.Weekends s he's almost always working on a project, whether it's a quilt or some reorganizing or something to be done on the house like earlier this year when she resealed the back deck stairs. She has a bad knee and asthma but still manages to get things done. And since her husband died, she's taken over managing the finances, and has done an admirable job of planning for things like property taxes and budgeting larger purchases. While I think she's extraordinary because she's my sister, all of these parts seem like ordinary things one might expect from an ordinary, imperfect adult woman. The gap between this and what you are currently dealing with is pretty extreme, no?
