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Good Morning cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
That's why I'm disappointed in myself. I gave him more justification. But I also realize I don't know how to engage in a conversation that only involves business. I'm easily pulled in to trying to get him to see my true intentions...

Go easy on yourself. This is difficult and emotional stuff.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't understand how to negotiate, obviously, and I don't see how to move things forward if it's just me saying over and over I'm sorry you feel that way. If I asked, What do you propose? And he said I propose to give you everything but my pension and that's his only proposal, how do I respond?

To keep it business, stop trying to get him to see, or more accurately stop trying to force him to see your side. The more you push the more he will push back. Come at it sideways. You need to listen and see his side first. Negotiating doesn’t happen with neither side listening to the other. Someone has to hear first, and that will have to be you since H is all mixed up. Once he feels heard, you will know his side, you will also have (maybe) further insight into his reasons and fear for why he feels like he does. And that helps you negotiate, to find a reasonable resolution to the impasse.

I’ve had many discussions/negotiations with my team over my years. A few take always I’ll share with you are to be openminded and go in with a willingness to change. To be clear, this mindset is not negating your views, or policies, or rules, or application of law, or what you are entitled to or should get in a settlement - it is setting aside your ego so you can actively listen to the other side’s version and accept and validate it. Because it is valid! To him.

Oftentimes being heard and acknowledged is all it takes. People feel like they are getting ran over and no one cares or listens. Consider bomb drop and how you so wished H would just listen to your side as he ran off with the fairies and unicorns into his wonderful fantasy life.

It takes some control and being a bit nibble on your feet while conversing to keep the conversation from getting emotional and from getting pulled in. Keep it business and goal oriented. Clarify his position with follow up questions. Then offer your views, unless... you get a better offer.

Middle ground is a pretty awesome place. One can see all side. One is not firmly fixed on their view, and so far on their side that they cannot see the other side. It is the realm of possibilities and where hope lives. It is possible that H may offer something better than his pension amount. That may not make sense to you; it doesn’t have to, it just has to make sense to H.

If such a conversation can happen, take advantage of it. Listen. Keep mostly silent. People will talk to fill in the silence. And do not be afraid to state you need time to consider his words. He may propose something you have not even considered and you will need time to think about it.

In your present situation, it is about his pension. He has provided his paperwork or by the sounds of things you have a pretty reasonable handle of the amounts and value of the pension plan. Work out what an upfront lump sum would be needed to equal the value paid out later in life. That is only a reference point. Not what you are seeking, not what you willing to settle for, nothing of the sort - just a number. Just information. And information is power and allows one to make decisions based on something other than if it feels good or bad. On offer that is well above the calculated value has obvious merit. An offer below the calculated value can have merit as well. It is just a number. (And keep most of your side and information to yourself. Don’t go spilling the beans.)

Then, consider a few things, on both sides - lump sum or pension: You already have plenty of valid numbers and reasons to retain a pension payout, so I will address the other side. The often overlooked side.

A lump sum is available now. You will have that money in hand now and that can alleviate a lot of financial stress, having a nest egg for just in case expenses is a good thing. You can invest that money how you see fit.

A big one, you do not have to wait until H retires. I know of a few angry people who are stubbornly not retiring. They are working well passed retirement age; working until the day they die, so their ex spouse cannot start collecting pension. (Of course, there are plenty of ways to agree to spilt the pension. The angry spouse hid their nefarious loophole plan from their spouse. And once signed, well...they signed. Always have a lawyer look it over before signing.) A lump sum gets H off the books, now. His actions or inactions cannot affect money that is in your hands.

Alimony can also be consider. An upfront payout ensures a spouse who skips the country or some such as no affect on your financial security.

Consider that side. With those considerations, with the extra security, you can settle for less than the fully entitled amount as well. Or not. Or even more if H offered such a deal. It is possible, these irrational folks do strange things that defy logic and reason. My XW is living proof. And if I had argued and fought, I’d not be where I am now. As much as I hated how she was destroying me, the family, and herself; her own destructive force and speed turned on her own financial future and I just had to shut up and sign the paper. As good a deal as that was and is, it was so very hard to accept. There is a lot of letting go of certain hopeful, well actually expected, outcomes. And that is harder than negotiating with your spouse; it’s almost negotiating with yourself.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Me: I still feel strongly about X.

H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve X.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

H: You don't deserve it because....

Me: [Trying in many ways to explain how I see it even as I acknowledge his perspective.] I'm sorry that's how you feel.

Yes it can get cyclic rather quickly. Especially when the other person is being manipulative and digging in their heals.

Listening is half the solution. The other half is asking them. (Takes some finesse, not just blurting out. Though at times that is exactly what is needed.)

Originally Posted by cardinal
He did lead me to the issue of the pension, after listing other things and saying he really didn't care about them. I think he wants me to accept short-term support in lieu of the retirement. He hinted that's what he would prefer. I hinted that I could entertain the opposite arrangement.

It’s right there. Follow up and listen. Hear his proposal.

How about something like:

Me: I still feel strongly about my share of your pension.

H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve my pension as I earned it.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

<silence>

H: You don't deserve it because.... (lists “reasons”)

Me: Ok, let’s say I leave your pension alone. What do you propose?

H: You get the house, car, and the contents.

<small pause>

Me: Ok, I’m listening.

H: And of course alimony.

Me: Hmmm. That is an interesting idea. The house is paid for right? No debts for me?

H: Yes. Of course!

Me: That is certainly worthy of consideration.

Me: Hmmm. An upfront payment... What about the alimony being all upfront as well? Like a lump sum.

H: I would like that too. I never thought you go for something like that.


Ok. Creative liberties aside, you can see the idea. I don’t know what “not really cared about” things H is willing to give up, however they might be rather valuable. My XW gave up her kids for example. And the house. And car and... well she was rather rare. Still, it’s what H is willing to do that matters, and if that is something you can accept or not.

One last thing, the spread between his ideas and the legal default outcome may be a chasm you are not willing to accept. That’s ok. This is just a discussion. A business talk about a business arrangement gone bad (divorce). It is fine to state that his offer is just too far away from what you are willing to accept. And that you will proceed as per legal precedent.

In all, accepting or declining, ensure you are being business-like and not because of feelings. You can let your feelings out later. (And I empathize, I’ve been there too.)

D


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Thank you, D. I see where I could have listened a lot more and maybe I would have learned more from H. It’s hard when I am so rusty talking to him about anything of significance. I’m also very on edge as I realize how he’s manipulating me, even if not consciously, especially because he has spent so long telling me I don’t deserve anything. I need to realize I can also stand up for myself through silence. Through hearing and considering his proposals, thinking about them, and then, perhaps, not accepting them. I have a hard time imagining H offering anything fair as he doesn’t have access to money to pay me an upfront sum, and we don’t own a house or have any other assets that would offset this. But I know he does want to feel heard.

Should I email him the formula Gerda mentioned and say I want to make sure we are in the same page with how it would be calculated, that I wouldn’t be getting half of his pension (and he could ask his L about that as well). If we talk again I could acknowledge his viewpoint and ask what he would propose as alternatives, to just listen and have him lay it out (I don’t know if he’s really thought it through.) I could not respond even if there’s no way I would accept. I could just say I will think about what he’s laid out.

I think IC would say I should go to mediation or let L handle it and to stop talking with him about specifics. Once again, I feel like I don’t know the best way forward. I fear somehow messing up my L negotiating approach by trying to talk with H on my own. But if I can manage to just get him to propose something and I just listen? Keep in mind I’m still waiting for him to change annulment to D filing and he’s never filled out all the disclosure forms. I just have a couple of account statements from his L. I am again in a place where I’m afraid to trust him to engage in a discussion with me.

Last edited by cardinal; 06/05/21 02:10 PM.

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Gerda does not agree with her beloved DnJ's imagined convo but I don't have time to write at the moment so I just wanted to say --

First rule -- wait as long as possible to respond to the MLCer at all. He will flip and flop six hundred times anyway so let him spiral and give yourself many days to let your own notions sift. If possible, everytime you think about it, say, "Nope, not going to think about that!" and remember a beautiful waterfall or quickly go to look at a Redon painting. In Christian land, we also say, "NOPE, NOT TODAY, SATAN!" because all despair and anxiety comes from the darkness. So my advice is do nothing for two days and try not to think about it (I know, impossible, but try). Then in two days you can craft a response. And then another day or two. Then edit. Then send.

I personally think all verbal communication should cease. All in writing. My file of these settlement convos was a great exhibit to use in a motion to show how hard I tried to settle and how insane H was.


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Hello cardinal

I do understand how hard and emotional it is to talk with H. The breaking of trust. His demanding of an annulment. And so on and so on. (((Hug)))

Originally Posted by cardinal
Should I email him the formula Gerda mentioned and say I want to make sure we are in the same page with how it would be calculated, that I wouldn’t be getting half of his pension (and he could ask his L about that as well).

No.

A person in crisis is irrational and has the attention span of a gnat. That formula will surely confuse him and push him away. This all requires different tactics than that of dealing with a rational person. (Like how you understand and seek the formula. Rational and logical. H ain’t there.)

Let it be for awhile. Remember time and space. Let H start it up again. Even if it is just some half ways kind of thing, you can gently steer him towards discussion of his feelings regarding his pension. (Notice his feelings, his pension. His path and view is all about him, speak that way when discussing to keep him engaged and talking. Which you did in the quote above. Well done.)

Originally Posted by cardinal
I have a hard time imagining H offering anything fair as he doesn’t have access to money to pay me an upfront sum, and we don’t own a house or have any other assets that would offset this.

Something from my profession - do not solve problem on route. Wait until you get there are then start solving them.

You are writing off the possibility of H raising monies or getting a loan. Consider Gerda’s H, he has a financial backer/moneyman for all his crazy schemes. Of course had he utilized that money towards a solution instead of fighting good hearted Gerda, her story would so much better. Of course he is in MLC and sometimes things go very much against you. Anyhow, point is, if your H sees this as something he really wants, he probably will find a way. They have already blown up their life in search of their happiness, finding a few bucks is small potatoes after such a feat. (Depending on just how big a pile you are talking about.)

Originally Posted by cardinal
I think IC would say I should go to mediation or let L handle it and to stop talking with him about specifics. Once again, I feel like I don’t know the best way forward. I fear somehow messing up my L negotiating approach by trying to talk with H on my own. But if I can manage to just get him to propose something and I just listen? Keep in mind I’m still waiting for him to change annulment to D filing and he’s never filled out all the disclosure forms. I just have a couple of account statements from his L. I am again in a place where I’m afraid to trust him to engage in a discussion with me.

You are doing fine.

Don’t fret. At anytime you can just walk away and turn everything over to a lawyer. Remember, you are not signing anything. Just talking, which is mostly listening.

You are correct with something else I’d like to point out. H’s actions and his words. He says divorce and not annulment, yet his actions have not followed through. You wisely see that. Perhaps, you can bring that up next time. “H, that needs to be addressed first. Then we can address the pension and other things.” Something like that, you don’t want that falling through the cracks or off the radar.

Negotiating, taking, getting a MLCer to do something reasonable, is like herding cats. Takes a lot of patience and some luck. And as much success you’d have telling a herd of cats what to do, you’d have telling H. H/cats need to feel he wants to.

Be patient. No one ever got divorce in a day. Even mine took 60 days, and I had a highly driven crazy wife pushing for it. She even wanted to plead guilt to adultery to get it all over fast.

Ensure you have sought legal advice about your rights and entitlements. Like the calculated pension amount, that is all information that helps you decided what cardinal wants. What you are willing to do. What is rock solid important and what is easier to let go of, if negotiating or mediation shows promise.

Some advice for right now, today. Enjoy the weekend. Unless H brings this up don’t give it space in your mind for the next two days.

Tell me of your weather. How green the grass is. Where you went for a walk. I am interested in your life, just so you know.

Take care.

D


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Look at that. Gerda and I were posting at the same time. And me utilizing her as an example as she herself did.


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Originally Posted by DnJ
Look at that. Gerda and I were posting at the same time. And me utilizing her as an example as she herself did.


DnJ often share a lane! And in the end we pretty much agree on most things but I have shifted my thinking a lot in the area of silence and boundaries.

I no longer think it is a good idea to give any air time whatsoever to the MLCer when s/he is not on the way back to you. I have spent 8 years studying this in my own life, and almost as many reading stories here. I have never seen this method "work" to do anything except twist the LBS back into fourteen pretzels and potentially end up negotiating against him/herself. Consider our friend Grace. She did start listening when her H was testing the waters to come back, and it worked out. But she didn't really listen to the nonsense when he was secreting their savings away to buy a condo with the OW. She kept firm to building a life for herself and insisting on a default sort of 50-50 split. When he began testing the waters, she was still firm but she listened enough for him to feel safe to keep thinking about returning.

I thought my H was returning several times, and I was open then and led down a path of hope that never materialized. That wasn't a waste. At least I know I did all I could. But I was also open when he spewed and abused me. That not only did not work to help him come back, it also allowed my children to witness bona fide abuse and led to a level of PTSD that I have only partially revealed here. I used to spend a hour a day crying on the floor of my church and every evening hiding in my room or going out to work at a cafe from 10 pm to 1 am to avoid being in the house, not knowing if my kids would wake up and find drunk H passed out on the couch.

I say all this pedagogically. Learn from me.

Do not listen to a word he says. Do not have conversations about the D. Do not negotiate with him verbally. Do not let him look at you when you negotiate. Figure out your bottom line, and then send him, in writing an offer that doesn't go as far as your bottom line so that it might seem like his idea when he offers your bottom line. Do not think of this as having anything to do with your marriage, your goodness as a wife/mother/woman/human. This is pure pragmatism, it is about efficiency, to get through the D as quickly as possible. You can cry and rage and spiral on all those other things you have been telling us here, but do that separately and without any chance of H knowing about it. Do not show him your heart. He doesn't want it and he can't see it. He also is not worthy of it. Your heart has no place in this money talk. When you brush your teeth, you follow a certain protocol and you get your teeth clean. You don't think about the trauma you had at the dentist or how you have been the best or worst toothbrusher or why you didn't ever get your H the right toothbrush. This is how clear you must be about money stuff. The money stuff is not about love. Or, rather, it is, but you can't see it that way or you will find yourself stuck in this tar pit for three going on four years like poor Gerda. Spend a lot of time punching things and screaming in a padded room, do whatever you want, but not when you draft notices to H. Do not let him know anything about how you feel. If he ever seems to be coming out this, you will know. You can reveal bits and pieces then. Not now.

Here is my revision of what would really happen if you tried that dialogue D suggested, at least with my H.

Me: I still feel strongly about my share of your pension.

H: Yes, that's exactly why I would never be with you. Because you are so grasping, so focused on your domestic needs. I worked my a-- off for that, and you did nothing. I sweated blood while you took the kids to the park.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

<silence>

H: You think you are going to take everything from me while I destroy myself? You can forget it. Look at this place.

Me: (starting to panic, throat tightening but desperate to work out a deal) Ok, let’s say I leave your pension alone. What do you propose?

H: I don't care what you do. That's your problem. I am starting a life that is authentic and true. I know what's mine and you will hear from my lawyer. And stop emasculating me in front of my children. They will finally know what it means to be a man, they will not see me through your eyes anymore.

<small pause>

Me: I am trying to work this out.

H: You don't even know how to work out how to clean this house.

Me: I am not going to sit here for this. I didn't do anything to you. I have waited for you and tried to do everything for this family.

H: You don't even know how to love. You don't even know what that means. Why don't you ask your God what it takes to love? I'm not talking about this. I am not talking with you. Get away from me.

Etc.

That was actually a tame version.

This is what I would send via e-mail --

Hi, H.

I'd love to settle this situation without mediation or lawyers. It's not working to talk about it, so I'm sending along this e-mail.

Looks like in (our state) I would be awarded $9000 a year from your pension and probably around $10,000 a year of alimony for the next ten years. That would end up as somewhere in between $100,000 and $200,000 all told. It would be a little more if you kept working.

You are owed $4000 from our savings and your half of the car would be another $5000, so that brings us down to $90,000 to $190,000 all told from pension and alimony.

We could do a lump sum payment now of $110,000 and each save at least 20K on lawyers and not have to go through the hell of divorce court. I would be okay with half when we sign the agreement and the other half when we go to sign the actual divorce decree.

If this can work with you, or you want to modify it, send your proposal via e-mail.

If not, we could try mediation with one of these two mediators that were recommended by the (local law school). If you have a mediator, I'd be glad to try that person too, just send along the contact info.

- Cardinal

If he refuses either of these ideas, you can wait til you hear from his lawyer or you can hire a lawyer and if he writes to you, just reply, "I'm sorry we couldn't work it out and am still open to the proposal I sent or to hearing your modification of that proposal. Otherwise here's my L's contact info. Thanks."

I had so much work to do that I don't want to do tonight. So that's why I just took way too much time writing this!

XO



Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/21 12:26 AM.

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Gerda—how lucky that I can benefit from your procrastination! I do recognize the uselessness in trying to communicate in your script. I can see where you and D really both start with figuring out the bottom line. I think the fuzziness I feel around that is contributing to my anxiety. I need to estimate pension and support and know what default settlement would be. I know what he makes now, and I know how that will increase if he stays in the same position. I’m not sure what variables to use to estimate the pension bottom line. I know the future value is more important. I know there is the COLA benefit that goes with that. I don’t know whether to estimate a range based on current salary, estimated salary in 10 years, at retirement (60 or 65 as a baseline?), etc. And then I don’t know what variable to use to estimate then how long he/I would be receiving pension payouts. Along the same lines, initially my L said spousal support would be calculated at ~1000/year: he makes around 25k more.

Should I have my L help me with this or can I estimate on my own? I do get overwhelmed with all of this— not quite knowing how to determine my bottom line, and I know it would empower me to have clarity. I think I could quiet some of my anxiety with that clarity. Right now my L is standing by as nothing had happened after I filed my response.

Scout, I missed your question before! It is a good question. I know of two reasons: 1. Because I don’t want him to think badly of me. (Irrational, and I realize it’s not my job to convince him of my intentions, that he’s going to hold a number of things against me no matter what, and that this feeling should no way play into the business part of this. Still, it is strong and I have to remember to be aware that it exists so that it doesn’t affect my decision making.) 2. I am afraid it will drag this process out even more. It’s been two years (even though he didn’t file until 1 1/2 years in), and as much as I am comfortable with the periods of time when things are calm and friendly, I’m reminded he’s not my friend right now and is can only think of himself. I need to get out of this situation for my health. So there’s the emotional component of it potentially dragging out and the financial component that goes along with that that I’m afraid of.

There is also the need to remember not to solve problems en route. I need a guide that says do this next little step; wait. I did try to take the weekend off from thinking about all of it. I’ve been eating strawberry shortcake, shortcakes made from a new recipe with a bit of cornmeal—finally a shortcake I enjoy! I gathered a bouquet of flowers from the garden for a neighbor. I wrote a note to a friend.

Last edited by cardinal; 06/07/21 03:31 PM.

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Strawberry shortcake. Yum!

Flowers are lovely and reaching out a friend is a great way to brightening your’s and their day.


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Dear Cardinal,

Please don't be dissapointed in yourself. It is very hard to negotiate with somebody who simply doesn't listen to you.
I'm in the same situation currently so know all about it.

I can't give you more advice than the comments you've received above.
This is worth a lot, as it comes from experienced people, and there are not many out there who've been through this.

Seen the little number of people posting in the MLC section I even think very few to be honest...

And thank you Gerda, for your excellent advice in regards to the firm way of interacting with your H when they are not on the way back. I needed this as the past week I was drawn back in and really felt bad. But now again on track.

Give yourself some time Cardinal, you will know which way to go forward for sure!

Take care!!


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((((Cardinal))))))

You are doing the best you can with the knowledge you have. Do not worry, do not be afraid.

Let's suppose you do everything wrong and you walk away with six dollars. That's okay. You will rebuild your life.

Let's suppose you do everything right and you walk away with 300,000 dollars. That makes some things easier. You will rebuild your life.

Just keep walking through the desert. Don't think you can do anything perfectly. You can't. You can just try to protect yourself from extra suffering. You will have plenty of suffering without the extra.

My experience with lawyers has not been good. If you are smart, you can figure out a lot of this yourself. I don't mean not to have one. If you can get a really good one, it is great to have one! But they will never care as much as you do or do as much research as you are willing to do. You can save some billable hours and equip yourself by finding out some stuff yourself.

Can you call the retirement office at his work to get information in general about how pensions work without talking about him specifically?

Can you call AARP and ask for help?

Can you meet with a certified divorce financial analyst? That's a whole field and they have an organization where you can find one. They will know how to calculate this.

You may not get the exact number. Who cares? You're only using the number as a way to get leverage anyway. The perfect exact number would come out of a trial, determined by a judge. You're just finding a number that gets kinda close to it so you can tell The Alien H, "Hey, I'd get about this much over twenty years, so how about we settle on this much less in a lump sum?"

I think you have to get a little feeling power about this. I recognize your confusion very well because I did the same thing. Fair warning! Now I am a force to be reckoned with. I wrote a review of my H's lawyer on a popular review site recently and I am pretty sure that at the last conference, not only did he look even more like an idiot than usual with his unprofessional spewing, but at one point he was so spitting mad that I am pretty sure he cried a little. Little Gerda who used to be so afraid of him now made him cry.

Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/21 06:26 PM.

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Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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