Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity #2

[kml]

“I’m only asking for what the law decrees is fair”. Then “have your lawyer talk to my lawyer” if you have to.

As for expense - mediation is way cheaper than going to court. Usually it’s a better option, unless you’re dealing with a sociopathic personality. Only you know whether he’s too unstable or abusive to mediate with. Hopefully his lawyer will explain the facts of life to him.

[Gerda]

Cardinal, a quick question and I will write more later --

First of all -- I could have written that entire passage you wrote about the jokes and the feeling that he might come back and then the calm and the D talk and many of the things you thought/felt, even the pet names.

Let that be a warning to you.

STOP TALKING TO HIM. He isn't in there. STOP. I disagree with KML in a way -- yes, he knows how to push your buttons. But you are also lifting your shirt and saying, "HERE ARE THE BUTTONS, PLEASE PRESS THEM."

And more on that later, but my question is -- How much will you get from the pension? Stop thinking about what is yours and what you deserve. You don't deserve to have your H turn into a dirtbag robot, but you are getting what you don't deserve there too, to say it with a double negative!

Let's say you calculate that the pension share is going to bring you an extra 100K in your lifetime. Is there some other area where you can make that up?

Or -- take a deep breath -- can you survive and thrive without it?

I am not saying you should not get a L and go for the default 50-50 split of everything -- and in fact, his earning all those years while you worked on your writing will only mean he has to pay you more alimony plus the pension!

But I'm just saying that you should sit down and crunch a whole bunch of numbers, just for yourself, just to know what it would look like to get everything you want and what it would look like to agree to his crap deal. Not to do it, just to look honestly at the numbers. Tell us what those are and then we can pragmatically figure out your bottom line. And then you can try to go to mediation. Let him pick the mediator or let him do whatever you can that is bearable to make him feel like he is in control. Not because it's what's best for you, but because you want to look for the quickest way out and it's quite obvious from what you have written and from all we know of MLC that he wants to feel like he is in control (even though we also all know he isn't!).

Remember, if you don't believe me, just read my threads. I could have written what you wrote -- that means that in a few years from now, you could write what I wrote if you don't learn from my mistakes. And the biggest mistake you can make is listening to a word they say. Just figure out what you can get and what you want to get, and start from there. Cut this H out of your mind and grieve the one you used to know. If he was real, he'll eventually know all the things you are lying there crying about. And if he was never a good man to begin with and it was all some weird NPD act, he'll never know anyway.

But we know. ((((( Cardinal )))))))

Come over for a cuppa tea. We can hash it out some more. : )

[kml]

Dang - just wrote a long reply and the system lost it.

Short version - figure out what the pension is worth. If there is some other way for him to pay you it’s value, that might be worth doing. Sample pension calculation:
If you were married ten years, and he has twenty years in working to earn that pension, and expects to work five more years. Let’s say the monthly pension payment is $2,000. You would get 1/2 x $2,000 x 10/25 = $400 a month.

Calculating the lump sum value if that is complicated, and requires actuarial data, but I would guesstimate it’s lump sum value at $50k-$70 k (probably at the lower end). Could he give you that money in some other way? Taking all the debt, for example, if there’s a ton of joint credit card debt? Taking out a loan of some kind?

Also, if the pension does have COLA it’s more valuable.

[cardinal]

STOP TALKING TO HIM. He isn't in there. STOP. I disagree with KML in a way -- yes, he knows how to push your buttons. But you are also lifting your shirt and saying, "HERE ARE THE BUTTONS, PLEASE PRESS THEM."

You are so right! I was realizing again the pattern of feeling like I'm in a fog during our convo, then feeling so lost, confused, and also guilty. The same thing would happen during arguments in the later part of our M, when I recognize now he would blame shift, explaining his anger was because I needed to do X or Y differently, or always just ending with we can't communicate because I don't understand him. So I googled again and came across an article on a psychology site about emotional blackmail and a book written about it too (ordered). OMG--recognition! I might say more about this later (I can't post the article, right?). But I don't think H is a sociopath or a narcissist or is manipulating me on purpose; he simply has never had the tools to express his needs or understand his emotions or communicate them, and since BD, it is worse. Anyway, so yeah, I realized, wow, I'm showing him again how susceptible I am to being guilted, how much I care what he thinks of me, etc. I know I have a tendency to just give in and give him what he wants to get out of this and because I think I can make him see me for who I am again. I need to learn non-defensive communication and how to stand my ground, stat. No more trying to justify what I am asking for.

KML (so sorry the system lost your long reply, but thank you for writing!) and Gerda, a financial advisor I talked to in the past urged me to never give up the pension. He said he sees this in women, particularly stay-at-home women, all the time, and said to call him at any time and he would talk me down from that ledge. This was from someone who accepted no money from me, has worked with people through D, and understood exactly what I was going through. That has stuck with me.

There's not a ton of debt. I do have that number. It's not a huge amount. 4 figures. Even if technically it is not all half mine (I'm not interested in spending money to discover that), I could pay my half with all of what is owed to me from our savings, clean slate there. Pension: Let's say we were M 10 years and he has worked 14 years so far, and can work 20+ more. I believe he will never leave this job that he has always complained about. The pension payments are based on the highest two years of the income over your entire career. Right now, 62k. COLA too I think.

If there is another way to think about this negotiating point and I should be considering other things, I would love to hear it. I can only think of trading alimony, which would be not a ton, for pension. I don't know how he would pay me an up-front sum. He doesn't have access to that kind of money.

[Gerda]

I will write in more detail later but do you mean he will get 62K per year from retirement til death, and you would be entitled to 31K per year of that?

Do you know about this --

The Majauskas Formula = 50 percent × years of service credit accrued during the marriage ÷ total service credit at time of retirement.

For example, if the Participant/Alien/Artist-Formerly-Known-as-the-Guy-You-Married accrued 15 years of service credit while married, and retires with 30 years total service credit, the ex-spouse’s/Gorgeous-Kind-Brilliant-Cardinal's share will be 25 percent of the pension. (50% × 15/30 = 25%).

The Retirement System does not require the Majauskas formula to be used. The Court may arrive at a different computation. The Retirement System will follow the Court’s directive in computing your ex-spouse’s share.

According to that, you'd be entitled to 50% x 10/34? That would only be 9K a year unless I am not understanding the formula. Maybe KML knows, or someone else on here? He may not realize that he doesn't have to give you the full half, and that's why he's fighting. Also only 9K a year ain't that much, and you could use this to leverage something else in trade.

Do you own a house or any other assets? If you don't want to give numbers, I can make a formula.

Also -- for now, he is a narcissist/sociopath/etc. Again, use my story to guide you, I am not saying he always was or that he won't wake up and be who he seemed to be before. But for right now, under the Reign of MLC, he is Cluster C Central. Read all those books and adjust accordingly. If he snaps out of it, you'll know, and you can shift yourself accordingly.

[cardinal]

Well, he gets a 3% raise yearly I believe. A financial advisor gave me an example in which I would get 12.5% of his total retirement payout ($x/year for the rest of his life after he retires). That must have been for 10 years of service credit during the marriage x 20 years of total service credit at the time of retirement. No house, no other assets.
So that’s what I’m thinking too—maybe he thinks this means I would get half of his pension for the rest of my life, and that’s way more than I would actually be getting. He doesn’t research or pay attention to these things. I was hoping once he sees actual numbers he’d realize it’s not as bad as he thinks. Or maybe it just comes down to the principle for him, who knows.

[kml]

I don't know if these things make any difference in a QDRO'd pension plan, but are things you might want to ask an attorney:
What happens if he dies before he's fully vested in his pension? Is he fully vested now? If he dies, do you have to wait until HE would have reached retirement age, or is there some different age for you? If he leaves his company early and takes a lump sum payout for his share, does this impact your share in some way?

$9,000 a year isn't that much, but having it tied to a COLA makes it more valuable, and if he's likely to advance in his career, you could benefit from future raises even though you're no longer married to him. If he were to advance, say, to a management position paying twice his current salary, the benefit for you would be twice as much.

I do think you are probably right about him not understanding the math. My ex was terrible with the math and taxes and seemed to think he was paying me 40% of his income in alimony when it was actually about 11% of after-tax income.

BY my calculations, if he worked 34 years and you were married for ten (make sure you make it to ten for the social security reasons I mentioned above) then you would get 14.7% of his pension (10/34 x 1/2). If he retires after only 20 years of working to live his dream of renting out the inherited house from his not yet dead uncle and traveling the world - then you would get 25% of his pension (but the actual amount would be smaller because he would be making less). Do you know things about his pension like what is the earliest he can take it? Does he pay a penalty for taking it at 20 years? Or is he restricted from actually getting payments until he reaches a certain age, like 60 or 65, regardless of when he quits working? It would be useful to know as much as possible about his pension plan rules.

I think if you can present it to him that it's a relatively small percentage of his pension he might be more relaxed about it. (Don't mention the social security thing to him, he might mistakenly think it affects his social security payout, which it does not). I'd use the 14% figure and the assumption that he is working 20 more years. Explaining clearly that you won't get half of his pension may help.

BUT aside from ALL this - $9,000/year in retirement, even with a COLA, is nice but isn't going to get you where you want to go. You still have to focus on INCREASING YOUR INCOME so that you can take care of yourself with or without anything from him. Since there are no other assets, it doesn't seem like he can buy you out of the pension, and since the debt is under $10k, him taking all the debt wouldn't compensate you for the pension either. Unless he can borrow $100k from his uncle to buy you out - is there money in his family?

And what are your employment plans? I can't remember if you changed jobs recently or have a plan to increase your income. This is actually a good time to take control of your own financial future. I'm always reminded of the movie She-Devil, where Roseanne Barr is the frumpy LBS who goes on to become a successful businesswoman. (And destroys her ex husband hilariously in the process).

Too many women are afraid of managing their own finances or think they always need a guy to rescue them. I'd recommend approaching your own finances now AS IF he didn't exist, and plan what you want. Are you young enough to find work with some entity that would give you a pension of your own? (My sister started working for a school district at the age of 50 and will have some retirement money from that. She did home daycare before that while her daughters were growing up). Can you learn a new skill or go back to school to train for something more lucrative? or can you just get a more full-time job in teaching? Would you be happy moving to a more low cost of living area?

Whatever it is you need to do, think about it. Sketch out some scenarios - even some that might seem outlandish to you. Teach in a foreign country? Go back to school? Start a business? Write that best-seller?

[cardinal]

Hi, KML--thanks for these questions and for helping me think through numbers and possibilities. The way they calculate retirement starts with calculating the benefit percentage: Service credit x age factor, which is based on your age in complete years and months on the date of your retiring. Age 60-65 = age factor .0250. (For each year you retire early, down to age 50, the age factor decreases; for example, if you retire at 50, it’s only .0110. You can’t retire and take benefits before 55, or in some cases 50. Early distributions are hit with tax penalties.) So a service credit of 20 years x an age factor of .0250 = 50.0% (benefit percentage) of your highest average monthly salary. (30 years service credit = 75% highest average monthly salary.) Multiply the benefit percentage by your highest average monthly salary to get your retirement income. Example: Your benefit percentage is 50.0%. The highest average monthly salary is $5400. 50.0% of $5400 = $2,700. Your basic retirement income is $2,700 per month.

So if a husband’s retirement is 2700/month after 20 years of service and retiring between 60-65, using the formula Gerda mentioned, W married 10 years would get 12.5% of that, or 337/month. If service credit was 30 years, H would get 75% of his monthly salary, 4050/month, and W would get 16% of that, or 648/month. (I think these calculations are right!)

He is fully vested now. If you die while eligible to retire but have not yet elected to retire, a lifetime retirement benefit may be payable to your surviving spouse or domestic partner. The benefit is calculated as though you had elected to retire on the day after the date of death. If you die before you are eligible to retire, it looks like survivors get 15% of salary, but I’m not sure how that would apply to me. H doesn't have a rich uncle, unfortunately, and though his parents are doing well, I'm sure any extra money there is going to their retirement.

So it's not a huge amount by any means, but it would be something to add to my retirement bucket. I just started a job with a pension. I don't know if I'll be able to stay at this job for the long, long term (the cost of living is so high here), but I will stay long enough to be vested and to add that to my retirement bucket as well. I am confident in my money managing abilities and I'm super frugal. H, on the other hand, never wanted to look at expenses or make a budget. It's been freeing to finally be able to manage my own finances!

[kml]

Maybe if you can do the math and show H that it’s only a small few hundred a month that would go to you, he’ll be less worried.

Great that you’ve got a job with a pension attached. I too found it freeing to not have to deal with my ex in household finances. (I always managed the money, and he wasn’t exactly a spendthrift, but he could blow a hole in the budget occasionally - like the time he came home with $5400 worth of two acoustic guitars without consulting me.)

Your second calculation is incorrect though - the longer he works, the lower your percentage. 10/30 x 0.5 x 0.75 = 12.5%.

At 10 of 20 years, you receive 1/4 (25%) of his 1/2 salary benefit or 12.5% of his total salary. At 10 of 30 years you receive 1/6 (16.6%) of his 0.75 salary benefit which is -you guessed it - 12.5% of his full salary. So the only difference to you is if he works longer he might get more raises and have a higher base salary.

So if his 20 year pension is $2700 a month, you get 25 % of that or $675. If he works for 30 years and gets $4050 a month, you get 16.6% of that or $672 a month. Basically you get the same no matter how long he works.

[scout12]

Hey Cardinal, something came to mind while reading your latest posts-- do you know what's behind the fear of insisting on that to which you're entitled?