Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity #2

[DnJ]

I rarely feel I have much to contribute. Sometimes I feel too young to have much of anything wise to say.

I love your post. Most wise and well said.

D

[cardinal]

I think a huge part of the reason I am the way I am is because I've learned to love through the hard stuff my entire life. I learned that you will not always like the person you love. You will not always love the person you love in the same way. That you will both change, and hopefully grow, and the best you can both do is wait for the other person to catch up or at the very least be willing to be supportive during that time. You will get hurt, and frustrated, and sometimes even apathetic in your relationship but if you always choose to turn inward instead of outward things will fall back into place, maybe not the the same order, but back into stead foundation.

This is beautiful, wayfarer. Thank you for writing this! I feel all of this deeply. I too have examples of 30+ year marriages in my family, and it's true that H maybe didn't have that same example of love. I didn't realize I had all these beliefs about what love is until BD and this whole experience. I mean, I did on a surface level, but in the last two years I've had the opportunity to really examine and articulate them to myself.

H's birthday was this week, and I woke up this weekend just feeling like, how great that I still choose to love--it's my superpower! I don't need H to love me back; my love just is. For a while I wanted to fight this, because to still love him is often painful. I've been having these waves of acceptance in the last month or so, just really embracing that love and seeing it as a good quality, like you say, WF, rather than wanting to change it.

H has, and has not, moved on from these memories. He is emotionally running and keeping ahead of them. When he tires, when he is at rest, especially at night laying in bed in the dark, his demons come out to play and torment.

Running requires a lot of emotional investment in maintaining his fantasy reality. His lack of apparent emotional weight to stimulus and memory is real and not. He really cannot face that he might be wrong, so he portrays the facade you see. Fate and life’s events will continue to steer and alter his path, it is up to him when/if he will yield and look within.

Thanks for these reminders, D, for telling me about MLC again! It is always helpful. I do believe there is a difference between moving on from memories and running to stay ahead of them. My IC would point out that H has always had this avoidant behavior, but it is just more apparent and externalized now. I believe H is running to stay ahead of memories, yet apparently I have to keep testing this belief because the carefree-ness he projects is so convincing. But also maybe there is that aspect that WF writes about, that he doesn't know how to love through the hard times. The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?

That weekend wave of accepting and feeling proud of my ability to love? It has been replaced with a deep sadness all week. H has been mostly gone since last week, though I did have to email him the monthly bill email and I wished him a happy birthday, and he said thanks.

It used to be that his being gone for days at a time meant a break from his potential monstering, and it felt freeing, I could relax. Now that he's pleasant to be around, it's a reminder of how much I miss our R. I miss present H's company, too. Hi, again, grief! Such a weight.

WF, reading your post I was also remembering (a long time ago) when you'd talked about being friends with your H, and there was that DB post you shared of the guy who stayed friends with his wife after she left him. I realized because of decisions I've made on how to respond to H all along, I'm kind of in a weird friend-ish zone with him. I mean, I didn't create this, but my decisions made it possible for H to make certain decisions to respond kindly to me as well. My choices have paved the way for this, in part, and it's a sad place to be sometimes, a difficult place, but also maybe an okay place for now.

It's a little weird to be almost at 2 years post-BD and to still have the love I do for H. Sometimes I feel like I haven't successfully "moved on." Our M is over and I still love him. I don't want to date. I still live with him (or he still lives with me). But also, oh yeah, we're not D yet, because he still hasn't moved it along, so even if I wanted to date, I'd wait until that was official. Some of the stuff posted in DnJ's thread was already on my mind. Am I missing out on other love and companionship because of my choices? Life is short. Knowing that doesn't change how I feel about H or dating right now though.

[cardinal]

Real quick P.S. to that post: While H was gone, I had to ask him about making arrangements for pet care while I visit my sick grandfather in a month. He’s back today and will be able to care for them for most of the time I’m away, which is a relief. He also did ask about my grandpa, and we had a short exchange about how he’s doing. It feels so so weird, like it could be any friend asking about him in a concerned but detached way, not my H who knew my grandpa for over a decade. They were fond of each other for sure.

Anyway, so it’s just hitting me again how much intimacy is gone, how surface our interactions are, and how with no effort to change that on either of our parts we will grow more distant and our exchanges more superficial, and... I guess that is true of any friendship or R.

I’m engaging on a surface level because I don’t think H has been or is in a place to engage beyond that. But what if I’m wrong? What if I never do my part to make space for more? He mentioned his grandpa dealing with dementia years ago, and I wanted to say, I know, I was there, I remember how hard it was.

I’m partly engaging in a surface level because that intimacy did go away at BD when he betrayed my trust. I can’t rebuild that on my own—he would have to want to work at an R and at rebuilding that.

Do I just sail through another few months or a year of surface level, acquaintance type convos? Or at some point do I make the effort to have more “real” human exchanges with him, even if as friends? To just say in this case, it feels so strange to be talking with you about my grandpa as if you didn’t know him for so long too.

I guess I’m feeling inauthentic again. Feeling like I’m partly staying super surface because I don’t want to be vulnerable.

[Gerda]

It is surface because he is incapable of connection. It has nothing to do with how you behave or what you do. You only have the power to start a fight or not start one. You do not have the power to to make a connection. It's like replacing only one battery in the remote. It still won't work.

Throw a pebble, a boulder or a scrap of paper into a shallow puddle. It makes no difference what you throw. It cannot sink to the bottom or barely make a ripple.

You are thinking too much about your interactions. He is not in there right now. Just go about your life. And don't ask him to watch your pets. Don't ask him for anything.

You'll know if he is ever someone who could make a connection. You'll know if he is ever a friend who should watch your pets. He isn't right now.

I say this all with love.

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

I believe H is running to stay ahead of memories, yet apparently I have to keep testing this belief because the carefree-ness he projects is so convincing. But also maybe there is that aspect that WF writes about, that he doesn't know how to love through the hard times. The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?

Oh yes, the carefree, assured, I’ve made the right choice, facade they wear as a mask is very convincing - it has to be, elsewise their entire reality crumbles. A person in crisis has and is rewriting their history and past. Ignoring some things, making up other things, exaggerating certain aspects and taking stuff out of context, all to justify and craft their shinny new narrative. The driving force behind this irrational behaviour is their emotional pain and torment from unrealized trauma(s) long ago. Irrational, without doubt, for to discard one’s own life experiences is not a rational choice. Consider how hurt and far gone one must be to become so different; to throw away so much.

We all struggle to find “our” way to look at this. To believe what we see right before our eyes. I happen to see many points of view as true; no one thing is the full be all end all explanation of such a complex mental shift. It helps to think of the crisis individual as another person. Yes, they are the same person/body; it’s their mind and emotionally self we are considering. Not quite dual personality, although close. Maybe more of dominate vs submissive characteristics and self.

The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?

He did! Believe that. It is part of your experience. No need to rewrite that. You know this, you married him because he could love through the hard times.

However, MLC is an incredibly insidious force which the unfortunate bearer is completely ill-prepared for. Their past rises up from its once buried dark depths and consumes them in pain and anguish. A crisis is inevitable, with the seeds being planted long ago. It’s these very seeds which stunted their emotional growth and ergo an ill-prepared person awaits their unknown fate.

H is currently a different person. It’s more than he cannot love through the hard times. He cannot love - you, friends, himself. He wears that assured mask for he absolutely has to. He cannot love even himself. Think about that. What a confusing place to live within your own scrambled mind and heart.

This confusion is expressed in all sorts of ways as they expend enormous energies convincing themselves and others everything is fine and right. Two years post BD and H has still not divorce you, even though he says he wants too. Words vs actions. Follow the actions and only 50% of those. H is (was) utterly confused, and perhaps is sorting some things out.

That weekend wave of accepting and feeling proud of my ability to love? It has been replaced with a deep sadness all week. H has been mostly gone since last week, though I did have to email him the monthly bill email and I wished him a happy birthday, and he said thanks.

Why?

Why the changed feelings?

What triggered it? What reinforced it?

Feeling are fleeting. And will flit unless reinforced.

What you want reinforcing your emotions is your beliefs, not the external forces and actions of others.

It is an excellent and incredible trait to love our betraying broken spouses. Your ability to love in the face of all this - be proud of that! Right down to your soul! Believe it. That is a worthy path of Grace my friend.

Such belief will not be replaced by sadness. At times sadness, even that deep sadness, will swell up; however it does not replace one’s values. You can feel and experience both, and many more, together. Yeah, this is coming from a man. And us guys are usually singularly emotionally operative. Lol. Relax, be still and silent, look deep, listen, and your multitude of emotions and beliefs and thoughts will align and sort. Oh, what a peace comes from that!

...so even if I wanted to date, I'd wait until that was official. Some of the stuff posted in DnJ's thread was already on my mind. Am I missing out on other love and companionship because of my choices? Life is short. Knowing that doesn't change how I feel about H or dating right now though.

For what it’s worth, I’m much on the side of my still intact vows. I am considering altering my own beliefs, and no one else’s. This exercise is causing strain within me, which is actually strengthening my beliefs and values. As I say, what good are beliefs if there are weak and cannot withstand the storms of life.

The more I consider stepping down, to not stand, to not stand for me, the more my peace and contentment falters. This is the opposite of an MLCer. Similar life direction perhaps, yet intellectually driven not emotionally. A thoughtful look before you leap approach. My current decision is to remain as is - happy, content, and proud of who I am and the life I lead.

Life is indeed short. Best to live it full and well. How ever one truly and deeply defines that. And if one doesn’t yet know their definition, be patient and answers will reveal themselves. I know it. I’ve experienced it. I believe it.

I’m engaging on a surface level because I don’t think H has been or is in a place to engage beyond that. But what if I’m wrong? What if I never do my part to make space for more?

H is a different person.

Before H had been in a place to engage beyond the superficial - you know this. Currently, H is not able too - you know this too.

What you are not seeing is your attempts to reconcile these two at odds views. They come from the same person/body, not the same inside. Two different people from different times. The H of your marriage has been dragged down and troubled H is dominate, for the moment. I’m sure you see flashes and times of old H peaking through, right?

Making space, doing your part, and such, matters not. Nothing you do will greatly alter H’s path. Yet, everything you do will. I know, I know. What the ___ are you talking about DnJ.

No one thing will make any great lasting difference to H’s journey. He must traverse it himself. You were not invited.

And, everything you do. Your values, your core self, will affect him - especially if/when he awakens. How you treated him matters - then. But, it matters now - for you! And your values. And yes, for him, as much as he projects it doesn’t. (The not giving him further justification and so on.)

If you don’t make space, might be the very thing that prompts him to look further within. Or not. That’s the problem - no one knows all ends. So, focus on you. Be the best cardinal you will be. Live your values, and no matter what happens you will be at peace and have a content life.

Do I just sail through another few months or a year of surface level, acquaintance type convos? Or at some point do I make the effort to have more “real” human exchanges with him, even if as friends? To just say in this case, it feels so strange to be talking with you about my grandpa as if you didn’t know him for so long too.

Some direct advice. Yes, continue as you are. Focus on you and leave him to God.

If H wants back, no force on earth will stand in his way. You job is not to place boulders in his path is all; he needs to walk it.

You can attempt deeper exchanges, if you want too. If they don’t work - back off quickly. No pressure, time and space, remember. H is in crisis and that is an irrational landscape where the normal rules of interaction get all messed up.

H is a different person. Grandpa is a pressure H cannot face right now. Also H is somewhat back in time, when he didn’t know/feel Grandpa; hence the indifference you sense about him.

I guess I’m feeling inauthentic again. Feeling like I’m partly staying super surface because I don’t want to be vulnerable.

Protecting one’s self is perfectly normal.

If I may, your feelings of inauthentic-ness: Realize you are being authentic. Your feelings make sense given the situation and who H currently is. Seek that which is reinforcing those feelings and let go. Find your belief and strengthen it and let it guide your emotional self - that accepting and proud of self feeling.

Have a wonderful Sunday my friend.

D

[cardinal]

D and Gerda, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom, experience and support. HE WILL NOT SEE YOU. HE CANNOT SEE YOU. The façade. I am reminding myself of all of this.

What you are not seeing is your attempts to reconcile these two at odds views. They come from the same person/body, not the same inside. Two different people from different times. The H of your marriage has been dragged down and troubled H is dominate, for the moment. I’m sure you see flashes and times of old H peaking through, right?

I thought there had been glimpses of old H, but this week he confirmed to me again that he is gone. I am in another cycle of grieving that death. I have that feeling again like I did at the beginning of this two years ago, like I have woken up from a nightmare but then it turns out it's not a nightmare--this person I knew for 17 years has stopped telling me how happy he is to be with me and is suddenly telling me he’s never been happy.

The last six months have been peaceful between H and me--no more barely contained anger radiating from him. We joke, I have complicated feelings about it that I don’t share with him, and that's been the extent of it. Then last night H asked if we could talk about next steps. The last time we'd talked about D, six months ago, was when he raged and then acknowledged he shouldn't have filed for an annulment and was just angry, etc. Well, this time he stayed mostly calm. He started by apologizing for his anger again and for the annulment filing and said he will change it to a D. He said he knows I'd wanted to do mediation and we have L (though he hasn't checked in with his since last year), but maybe we could try now that he's in a better place to talk through an agreement ourselves. I said maybe we could outline issues and then go from there if we need outside help. I was curious if his stance (basically that I deserve nothing) had changed. I let him know I still felt strongly about the portion of his pension I am entitled to, and he said that is the one thing he feels strongly about too, because he worked for it, it should be his

. He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned. We can go to mediation, and I'll get it all and he'll get nothing because that's how it works. (He seemed to recognize the court would follow suit with the pension too--his only hope is if I give it up.)

And this led to us basically hitting all the same old points. I'm cold if I just say the law entitles me to it, period, and that’s just how D goes. Why can’t I understand how he feels? If I say instead we had a partnership, that's what a M is, and everything we both earned was shared, then it's that we didn't have a true partnership, he supported me but I didn't support him in the same way.

One minute he says he supported my writing because he wanted to make me happy; another minute he says it was a sacrifice for him and it didn’t go anywhere (I guess meaning I never sold a book and made him money?). He felt like he was solely responsible for "supporting our lifestyle," and I would never get a job (though I did teach part-time as a lecturer and often brought up whether I should try to find a FT job in another field, but he always said no, keep writing!). Because of that (i.e. me) we took on debt. I pointed out he never discussed these feelings or our financial situation with me, that I couldn't have known about debt or savings because I didn't have access to it, that whenever I brought up finances, he assured me we were fine.

This is how it went--brief acknowledgement of something he should have communicated but didn't, then turning around and blaming me again. Old gems: Communication shouldn't be this hard, you shouldn't have to communicate your needs to your partner, they should just know because they understand you so well (and I never understood him); I should have known he was unhappy, should have sensed it. I said I did at times think you were upset or angry, but when I tried to talk about it, you insisted you fine or you would tell me, and if I pressed, you were often angrier and shut down any conversation. His response: you should have pushed harder. Or you should have just known even though I didn’t want to talk about it. These all relate to reasons he should keep all of his retirement.

He wasn't as full of contempt this time. He didn’t yell. I was more emotional, as it was upsetting (even though I should know by now) to hear again how I should have known XYZ and that is why I don’t deserve this and wow, his life is so much better now. He was still condescending: he said clearly I still have some processing to do (because I couldn’t stop myself from expressing that emotion), while he's already processed everything, he's really worked on himself (by the way he's vaping pot *and* ecigs now), and he's grown, and he’s always processed his emotions faster than me, etc.

Um, I said, didn’t you tell me part of the issue that you *didn't* process your emotions and then they all caught up with you at once? I'm not like that anymore, he said. Now I let my emotions out. He's happy now, he feels free! He checked out of the convo and started looking at his phone. He said he was disappointed our talk hadn’t gone as he’d thought it would. I’m thinking after my kindness with the tax situation, he expected me to similarly "help" him here by not accepting my portion of the retirement.

We ended with his agreeing to share his pension info with me so we’re on the same page, since I already shared all of my info with him when I filed my response.

Finally I broke down later in the night. I was vulnerable, I cried. I said that I remember the nicknames we used to call each other, ever since we started dating. That’s who we were. We only used those names for each other. And when I think of those two people, and how that guy was my best friend, it’s excruciating to hear that he thinks I’m someone who would try to punish him, or go after his money, that he would believe that of me. I said it’s hard for me to shift from friendly roommate banter to talking about D stuff, and I don’t ever feel like I’m doing it right. I

It was after that, remembering and acknowledging how we'd kept that ritual of the names through our 17 year R, that I also remembered the way that guy looked at me when he saw me on our wedding day for the first time (after seven years of dating), and it just broke me that, when I was talking to that guy for the very last time, I didn't know it was the last time. I didn't know what was coming, how he would change. I sobbed for an hour, didn’t sleep at all.

My mind keeps replaying everything and, yes, I feel like I did everything wrong. I don't know why this time made me feel like BD all over again. It was just a reminder that old H isn’t there and he may not even be buried somewhere inside new H; he may really have killed that part of himself like he said. It’s reminded me how unsettled I used to feel all the time when he would rage, how weird it is to live in a house with someone you don’t feel like you know anymore, someone who doesn’t know you anymore, doesn’t recognize you for who you’ve always been.

A long and not... great update. Before all this happened, my update was going to be that at a visit to our dentist, she surprised me by asking if H and I were still together. We've gone there for many years. I said we still live together but he's wanted a divorce for two years. She said, not jokingly, "Is he having a midlife crisis?" No one has ever flat out asked me that. She recommended a book on boundaries. Makes me wonder if she's had some experience with MLC in her life.

[kml]

Do NOT agree to anything financial about the divorce. Boy, he knows how to push your buttons! He wants to do things without lawyers because he knows what he’s asking for is unreasonable.

Go to mediation. Have your own lawyer to advise you. Don’t give up anything you’re entitled to. Stop having conversations with him about it without your lawyer.

Get your own financial ducks in a row. If you have health and dental insurance through his job, get anything you need done, fine now. If your income isn’t enough to support you, figure out how to increase it.

Let go or be dragged.Letting go of him doesn’t mean you’ve [censored] the door if he suddenly wakes up. But it means you move forward with your own life. The person he is now doesn’t have remorse and doesn’t care what happens to you. So YOU have to look after yourself.

Plan a glorious future for yourself. Dream big.

[cardinal]

Thanks, KML. My ducks are pretty much in a row, but I’m afraid of losing my savings through this process. If he seems to acknowledge that if that’s what I want that’s what will happen, is it just as practical to try to wrap up through lawyers? Or is mediation still better, and I wonder if it would still be a flat fee of like $5k in that case. I’m afraid somehow he could change his mind during a mediation process and I would be out the money I’d need to give my L.

[DnJ]

Hello cardinal

(((Hugs)))

It is clear H is in an emotional crisis. His behaviour of trying to convince you and himself that he is all better is so following the script. Along with all his blaming and threatening to never forgive you if you take what you are entitled to. And all the past stuff and how true partners would have known what each other was thinking. Lol. (Old DnJ is a pretty darn empathic guy and I still cannot read minds.)

Pay H’s ramblings no heed.

It is good that H has admitted and recognizes divorce and not pushing for annulment. By the way, that idea of forced annulment was some weird stuff from him. Makes me think it is some kind of manifestation of his torment and pain.

He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned.

DO NOT FALL FOR THIS.

You know better. I know you do.

His attitude is so like an emotional crisis person. Negative and permanent. I’ll never ever feel... It will always be bad... and so on and so on.

You are entitled to, and need financial protection. Do not back down!

I get how bad this all feels. Back to the days of bomb drop.

My XW and I had cute nicknames too. I’d love to hear mine again. I’d love to be hugged again. Coming up on four years soon. And I have those memories of the last time such and such happened, and I didn’t know at the time that was going to be the last time. I was unrecognized and then completely ignored; like I’m dead. It’s a heck of a way for XW and me, our life together to end.

Cry it out my friend. Let it out. And let it go. H is having a mid life crisis, which has nothing to do with you.

By the way, I’d place money on your dentist having been closely involved with someone’s MLC. Maybe even her spouse. People have no idea about this stuff until they have experienced it. She gave advice becoming of a person of experience and knowledge not a person with the Hollywood version of MLC preconceived ideas.

The last six months have been peaceful between H and me--no more barely contained anger radiating from him. We joke, I have complicated feelings about it that I don’t share with him, and that's been the extent of it. Then last night H asked if we could talk about next steps.

So, did you expect his next steps to be about reconciling or divorcing? (Careful with the trick expectations question)

The last time we'd talked about D, six months ago, was when he raged and then acknowledged he shouldn't have filed for an annulment and was just angry, etc. Well, this time he stayed mostly calm. He started by apologizing for his anger again and for the annulment filing and said he will change it to a D. He said he knows I'd wanted to do mediation and we have L (though he hasn't checked in with his since last year), but maybe we could try now that he's in a better place to talk through an agreement ourselves.

So far, so good.

I said maybe we could outline issues and then go from there if we need outside help. I was curious if his stance (basically that I deserve nothing) had changed. I let him know I still felt strongly about the portion of his pension I am entitled to, and he said that is the one thing he feels strongly about too, because he worked for it, it should be his.

Wonder what he would have said to a response of: What do you suggest H?

I do suspect he would have gotten around to the issue of pension and all that followed. H knows, and knew your stance. He is looking for justification of how he feels. Back off. No more emotional conversations regarding divorce. It is a business matter. Keep it such.

He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned. We can go to mediation, and I'll get it all and he'll get nothing because that's how it works. (He seemed to recognize the court would follow suit with the pension too--his only hope is if I give it up.)

And this led to us basically hitting all the same old points. I'm cold if I just say the law entitles me to it, period, and that’s just how D goes. Why can’t I understand how he feels? If I say instead we had a partnership, that's what a M is, and everything we both earned was shared, then it's that we didn't have a true partnership, he supported me but I didn't support him in the same way.

I’m sorry you feel that way H.

Next time. Businesslike. No need to rehash this conversation again with H. If he wants a divorce then he needs to face and discuss the reality of it. Blaming, projecting, and justifying is not needed. Place a boundary on that stuff.

You are on two paths. The emotional healing path towards wholeness and healthy and a great life. You are also on the business path of financial security and protection, which also leads into your great life. Two separate paths which eventually converge. These do require different tactics and responses. Mental assertiveness. Sword and shield my dear girl.

H did agree to share his pension info with you. And this conversation seemed to end on a somewhat calm note. Please, cut yourself some slack, you did not do everything wrong. There are no guarantees or rules to cover all scenarios. Perhaps H let off some of his built up pressure and will be more forth coming and better because of this.

My belief and opinion is you will be better for this conversation and the breaking down. You needed to get it out of your system. And you did prompt H for just that by prodding with the pension item. A fully needed to be discussed item by the way, and one you know would most likely get him “talking”. Perfectly reasonable to be curious where H is at.

An other hug my friend. (((Hug))) You deserve it. The path of the LBS at times ain’t no walk in the park. You are doing really well. Seriously.

D

[cardinal]

His attitude is so like an emotional crisis person. Negative and permanent. I’ll never ever feel... It will always be bad... and so on and so on.

Ah, that's true. At the same time he is saying he's emotionally enlightened now, I forgot that he doesn't have the understanding that feelings change. And that's the unrealized expectation I had--not that the next convo would have been about D or reconciliation, but that with the lifting of anger that I sensed, he would not still be blaming me, at least not to the same extent. That's why I was so saddened and disappointed. He may not be blaming me quite as angrily, but all of the blame is still there the same. And so it reinforces my fear that his feelings about me or M will never change (not even like toward reconciliation, but toward recognition and accepting responsibility).

My XW and I had cute nicknames too. I’d love to hear mine again. I’d love to be hugged again. Coming up on four years soon. And I have those memories of the last time such and such happened, and I didn’t know at the time that was going to be the last time. I was unrecognized and then completely ignored; like I’m dead. It’s a heck of a way for XW and me, our life together to end.

Thanks for sharing this, D. I know you get it. I see you can still recognize the great sadness of it all while still reaching acceptance and embracing life. I will get there. I have been moving in that direction, and moving through waves of new grief that slow me momentarily.

Wonder what he would have said to a response of: What do you suggest H?

He did lead me to the issue of the pension, after listing other things and saying he really didn't care about them. I think he wants me to accept short-term support in lieu of the retirement. He hinted that's what he would prefer. I hinted that I could entertain the opposite arrangement.

I do suspect he would have gotten around to the issue of pension and all that followed. H knows, and knew your stance. He is looking for justification of how he feels. Back off. No more emotional conversations regarding divorce. It is a business matter. Keep it such.

That's why I'm disappointed in myself. I gave him more justification. But I also realize I don't know how to engage in a conversation that only involves business. I'm easily pulled in to trying to get him to see my true intentions, even as I realized he's still in the place where there is nothing I can say or do to make that happen. Even as I realize I have no control over what he thinks of me, or whether he decides to hold something else against me or not.

What would that look like?

Me: I still feel strongly about X.

H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve X.

Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.

H: You don't deserve it because....

Me: [Trying in many ways to explain how I see it even as I acknowledge his perspective.] I'm sorry that's how you feel.

Is it just like that? I don't understand how to negotiate, obviously, and I don't see how to move things forward if it's just me saying over and over I'm sorry you feel that way. If I asked, What do you propose? And he said I propose to give you everything but my pension and that's his only proposal, how do I respond?