You are spot on about H. Yes, he behaves like a different person. It takes time for our emotions to sort that out. I have my feelings, thoughts, and beliefs about W and our M. And I have ones about XW - her current self.
I find most of the LBS’ confusion comes from trying (notice trying not doing, so it doesn’t work out well) to recognize these weird new behaviours from the spouse and reconcile those into our existing idea/definition of them. Instead, realize the new person before you and their behaviours.
Your past remains intact. Your emotions, and memories, of your H and M remain intact and valid and real - for they are.
The new and present situation is accepted for what it is. This take time and is a bit difficult to get here.
And yes, at first it is strange to hold two different views and beliefs about the same “person”, the same body. It’s within that has changed for our MLCers, they still look the same and even mostly sound the same.
You are right MLC-H is the opposite. You used to trust H. Now you cannot trust MLC-H. That is so confusing emotionally and intellectually until you see, and believe in, the different personalities.
Do not fall prey to his rewriting of his history. He’s finding new aspects and blames, the further he continues his path. Him saying the last seventeen years weren’t real, doesn’t make it so! You were there. You know better!
Deal with MLC-H in a business-like manner. Focus on you and your security, protection, and future.
And it’s ok to hope that H is somewhere inside and maybe will emerge again.
It’s a strange path to walk. Two different approaches, two different views, and yet one path, and one person - you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
And yes, at first it is strange to hold two different views and beliefs about the same “person”, the same body. It’s within that has changed for our MLCers, they still look the same and even mostly sound the same.
It's just weird. It defies belief. And yet it doesn't, because I see it and believe it. But I still have fleeting moments of thinking, wow, this is so strange! It makes sense that there is confusion in trying to reconcile the MLC spouse with the pre-MLC spouse, because the two just don't fit together, even if at times they seem to. It's like when you think you've found the right puzzle piece, finally, but it's just a little bit off. Trying; doing doesn't work out so well, right?
I've only just begun this new phase with L, and it too is strange. I am able to keep everyone's advice in mind and separate emotion from business when I talk to my L, but then afterward, the emotion rises up. I hope it will get easier to focus on just the business side with time.
For instance, in just preparing to ask for what I am entitled to (as a starting point, that seems fair), I feel conflicted. Partly because I worry at every step I/we will do something to set the MLCer off (fine, that's expected), and it'll do so in a way that shuts down negotiation possibilities. But how to know the best way to go about protecting myself and doing so strategically so that he will think some things are his idea, and therefore be more open to them? Will L really understand MLCer behavior enough?
I understand more than ever that neither one of us will come out of this "restored," no matter who ends up with what. I understand that H will most likely perceive anything I do with L (beyond just agreeing to an annulment!) as attempts to hurt him or attack him or punish him, and I understand that is not my intention. But my gut reaction is to feel bad even so. I think he's in so much pain--I know I didn't break him, can't fix him, but I also know I have caused him pain in our relationship without meaning to. I am not the source of all his pain, but I have contributed to a slice of it. At the end of the day, this is someone I love(d), and I don't want to add to his pain. I suspect there is something about the L process that just can't avoid seeming adversarial despite my best intentions (especially if you are in MLC and wont to think everyone is against you, and you aren't able take responsibility for any of your own decisions). I know it was ultimately out of my hands to go this route, and that mediation wouldn't have worked because of the state H is in. I believe that my L understands where I am coming from and is representing me according to my values.
As my therapist pointed out recently, feeling bad isn't the same as doing wrong. I'm trying to keep that in mind. But I wasn't prepared for how sad this process would seem. Like, even if H suddenly gave up everything, (like your wife, D, to a lesser extent), it would not be a "good" outcome, even though I would benefit. It would still be sad.
I'm also trying to keep in mind some words from a podcast I listened to recently—compassion is not exactly the same as empathy, the guest was saying. I'm trying to remember how she explained it. Empathy is putting yourself in someone's shoes, is imagining what it would be like to experience what they are experiencing. It is, in some sense, taking on that person's suffering in that moment, and it can be hard to do all the time. Compassion as a practice doesn't necessarily mean you are identifying on quite the same level. Having compassion means you recognize another's suffering or pain, and you wish them to be free of suffering and pain, but it doesn't necessarily mean you take on that pain or suffering. bttrfly, this was stemming from a discussion of Brahma-Vihara, or the four divine states of Buddhism, so I have a feeling this is up your alley.
So I'm still working on keeping business separate from emotion, but it is harder than I thought.
My break is over--back to work! I have been able to steal a few minutes here and there in the last week to read some of your updates. I am still thinking of you all, even if I haven't been able to reply yet. I am holding you all in my heart.
You sound good. You really do. I'm so glad you have a good L that you trust. I also note that you didn't mention once in this post anything that H did or didn't do, and that also seems great, from my end at least. That even though you're dealing with all of this and still living in the same house, he can't knock you off balance anymore.
On compassion vs empathy, I've read a lot about empaths getting burned out. I took a course from the Compassion Institute and found it really helpful and interesting-- you might look into it. They have a number of online courses.
xoxo keep up the good work, C. You're so strong and amazing. M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Yes, the behaviour of our once loving spouse does defy belief. I found myself thinking and saying I can’t believe what XW is doing. That wording was programming me to not believe what I was seeing. Seeing is not actually believing. Believe it or not.
So, I changed how I spoke and thought of the situation. I am dumbfounded by XW’s behaviour and what she has done.
Dumbfounded is much more accurate wording. And allows one to believe what they see.
It is normal to remain calm and businesslike while discussing things with the lawyer. They are after all pretty calm, detached, and businesslike, so we tend to be the same. Afterwards, our emotions do well up. It’s ok. Feel them and let them go.
Originally Posted by cardinal
For instance, in just preparing to ask for what I am entitled to (as a starting point, that seems fair), I feel conflicted. Partly because I worry at every step I/we will do something to set the MLCer off (fine, that's expected), and it'll do so in a way that shuts down negotiation possibilities. But how to know the best way to go about protecting myself and doing so strategically so that he will think some things are his idea, and therefore be more open to them? Will L really understand MLCer behaviour enough?
It is interesting to consider negotiating possibilities. However, until you actually get there it is hard to say how your MLCer is going to react.
A few things for you to consider. As a starting point, yes what you’re entitled to is good. However, you need not ask for what you’re entitled too. You are entitled to it. You state it. Not ask for it.
That idea carries into the back and forth negotiating as well. You state how you want things to be. The other party can agree or propose something back. Then it’s your turn to either agree or modify and re-propose. Repeat as necessary.
Point is there is no asking. You clearly state how you propose things are to be split. Clearly state. Businesslike. (Ok, it is like asking but more formal and binding if accepted)
If H counter proposes, then you can see where he is headed. It’s then you can explore his “ideas”. Right now his idea is annulment. Don’t think you are wanting to explore that. Right? Even if H gave up everything? (Just testing your views btw)
Originally Posted by cardinal
As my therapist pointed out recently, feeling bad isn't the same as doing wrong. I'm trying to keep that in mind. But I wasn't prepared for how sad this process would seem. Like, even if H suddenly gave up everything, (like your wife, D, to a lesser extent), it would not be a "good" outcome, even though I would benefit. It would still be sad.
Yes this is a sad process. No way around that. You need to feel it. Make time to allow your feelings. We don’t remain businesslike 24/7.
I am blessed and cursed with a XW who gave up everything. I don’t know of anyone else who experienced this to such a staggering degree. My L was dumbfounded. XW is rather famous, or more accurately infamous, in the legal businesses around these parts.
Was my outcome a “good” one? There is no good outcome from a divorce. All one can hope for and strive for is the best of a bunch of cr@ppy outcomes. It’s what you do with that outcome that turns it into “good”.
I did benefit financially. No doubts there. My kids lost their Mom. And to make matters worse they were thrown away. Of course I was thrown away as well. Most LBS are tossed aside so little surprise there. And yes, lots of sadness.
Compassion and empathy are different. Putting yourself into the shoes of someone so depressed, so desperate, so full of despair and pain and torment, is a sad draining experience. To see and feel just how bleak one must be to do what they have done.
Compassion, detachment, indifference, empathy, understanding, hope, forgiveness, peace, love, happiness, joy... This is an incredible path of growth we are upon. The sadness does give way. Sure I’m still sad once in a while. However, much better things fill and fulfill my life.
cardinal, you are on a great path with very good headings, IMHO.
Empathy, and all the other traits, is a skill. And like all skills, it gets better with practice and use. Seeing and understanding someone else’s viewpoint and emotional state helps in understanding and accepting our own. That is a big step towards lessening the sadness. After all, acceptance is just emotional understanding - your’s and H’s.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Be businesslike when needed. Be emotional when needed.
You so got this. (((cardinal)))
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I’m too full to even eat pie at this moment. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! I thought of you all today. I hope you found some moments of joy and peace, and really felt whatever you needed to feel. What a strange year.
My L filed my response on the day of my deadline, which I realized happened to be exactly a year after H gave me a letter stating his intent to file for D—he still sounded somewhat normal in that letter. It was kind of a weak, I can’t believe we’re here, but I just need to do this in order to be happy letter. It’s pretty clear to me that if he had found that happiness in splitting, he wouldn’t be so angry. I hope he can really face his feelings and work through all the anger at some point. It’s hard to imagine living that way. My IC is pretty convinced H will blow up again soon. I don’t know if his L has shared my response yet, or what my L emailed. H hasn’t changed his polite demeanor at all. He does seem a bit like a ticking bomb.
May and DnJ, your notes mean a lot. D, I will be reading yours again and again through this process. It’s good to be reminded of this:
Originally Posted by DnJ
However, you need not ask for what you’re entitled too. You are entitled to it. You state it. Not ask for it.
I’ve struggled with a lot of feelings of guilt this week, even as I remind myself that all of this is H’s doing, and I am merely responding in the way I am required to. I let those feelings come and go—the blame, the guilt, the sadness. At least I can separate feeling guilty or feeling all the things H projects on me from believing those things. I might still feel them, but not believing them is progress.
I'm dropping in for a quick, unedited vent, because that's all I have time for at the moment. I'm working long hours, am not feeling as focused and sharp at my new job. I read something recently about the stress that's caused by living with perpetual uncertainty, as in the pandemic, how the brain has less capacity for high-level processes, shifts more into survival mode. It made me feel slightly better--oh, okay, it makes sense that I'm feeling less smart and less together because a) pandemic b) living with MLC H and c) I could go on. I'm so looking forward to talking to IC tomorrow. I'll also be meeting the rest of the small team I work with in person for the first time since I started two months ago—we're having lunch outdoors and at a distance. I'm looking forward to meeting them, even though I'm a little nervous. I'm struggling with doubts at how well I am doing at the job at this point in time and feeling like under other circumstances I'd be accomplishing more, faster. I'm also trying to give myself a break, because A and B and, I mean, starting a new job is always challenging for a bit, right? I think this is also partly because BD and ensuing 16 months have done a number on my confidence.
Anyway! The original reason I needed to vent is I guess tied in with all this--feeling exhausted after another long work day and exhausted from living with the MLCer kind of uncertainty, worrying about my family and Covid, etc. You all understand this perfectly. H is still acting as he has been for the last two months, polite and bouncy, for the most part. My IC cautioned me to be ready for his anger to return, and I've been a little bit on edge since I filed my response last week, and my L emailed his L. So far: nothing. Except a little Thanksgiving note from H I wrote about on DnJ's thread. And then today he showed me some possession of his that has sentimental value to him. It doesn't really matter what it is, just that he seemed to want recognition and a moment of connection, since I'm the only one here who really understands the history of the object and his relationship to it. I was in the middle of cleaning (broken glass, another story), and I paused to acknowledge what H was showing me. Part of me in my exhaustion wanted to just say, "Sorry, I'm just too tired to interact with you and pretend we are friends--remember that you filed for an annulment? How does that fit with this?"
But I acknowledged him, didn't let myself go down memory lane re: this object an our shared memories of it, just kept cleaning so I could get on to the next thing.
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
IT MAKES SENSE. I just met with my IC (via phone) and I was discussing the same thing. My H is still here and lately, he has been making little chit chat comments to me, he ate with us for thanksgiving and has been friendly and cordial.
He also is aloof, comes and goes at least 50% of the time with no announcement of where he is going. I feel a little confident and then he does something that doesn’t make me mad at him, he told me what he wants, it makes me mad at me.
Tonight, he left around 5:15 and it is now 9:00. Where is he? I don’t know. When will he be back? I don’t know.
So Cardinal, my friend, I am hugging you from thE web. I totally get it. It makes sense. Just know, there are some of us that totally understand.
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
I echo PLC, this totally makes sense to me. But give yourself a lot of grace right now, Cardinal. It takes an huge amount of psychic energy to navigate all of this. There are no neat compartments right now. It's all messy and convoluted and blurry and just HARD.
I keep thinking about something a woo-woo healer person told me: relationships shouldn't be this hard. And if they are, you need to exorcise them from your life because too much talented energy is wasted in the process. Relationships can change, and exorcising a R from your life isn't black and white. At the moment, in my own process, I am trying to find my mental boundaries within myself. Nothing to do with H, but everything to do with what I will and will not take up my own psychic energy.
At the moment, you have so much good going for you: a new job, the future that it will enable for you, physical security, your health. Feel those things that H triggers in you and move on when you're ready to. Eventually, your expectations will catch up with reality (at least that is what I am hoping for myself!).
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
Yes, the cognitive dissonance is draining and keeping it civil in the face of this is adding to an already stressful situation.
You are not crazy. This is a crazy-making faux reality.
Keep focusing on yourself. Don't take the bait, positive or negative. He's living in his own private idaho. Try to look at him as a pod person - one who outwardly looks familiar but inside is a complete stranger. Hope this helps. You may want to think of that song every time he opens his mouth. Hard to be down when the B52s are in your head as an earworm.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
