am I the only person here this has every happened to?
Cardinal, you must be kidding! Some version of this has happened to almost all of us!
I know how you are feeling, I have been there and back and back and there and over and over. Esp that feeling that someone will take your home. I have been living that for four years and counting. ((((Cardinal)))))
Your L sounds good. That's great! I never had a good one and now am pro se.
Here's my advice -- first, take time every day to separate your mind from your heart. This battle is only about money. You can deal with your heart separately or later. I know it's hard, but it's key.
Second -- your L said it wasn't worth it to get him out of the house?! This is totally untrue. I might have ended up in the insane asylum if I hadn't gotten mine out, and my son was suicidal and a truant. All that changed when I got H out, and I could heal and think clearly. Your L is wrong about that; maybe she never lived with an MLCer, esp one who refused to leave after filing for D. Yes, you can be that strong, but why should you if you can give him a downpayment on his share of equity and he will leave? Talk to your lawyer about it to see if it's possible to be creative about that. If you know that you will be having to buy him out and you have some way to get money, you could offer to pay him $1000 a month as an advance on ED or to borrow some money, e.g., $10,000 to give him a first payment. Make sure it's in writing as an advance on ED only, and show that you had to borrow to be able to pay it so they don't try any alimony nonsense with it. But even if you lose some money having that happen, I assure you it will change your entire outlook, etc., if you can get him to leave.
If you can't, can you set him up in some other part of the house so that you don't have to interact at all? Do you have a separate entrance? Or can you take the upstairs and only share the kitchen?
If some part of you still wants to stand, that is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. You can even tell him that you hope to restore the marriage one day but that you can't live like this and need to heal. You don't have to be vicious or nasty or any of that to get him out of your house. Learn from my story! Get him out if you can! (And it will also help to establish a precedent for use of the house, but don't tell him that. And if you don't have kids, that might not be a factor anyway.)
XO
Last edited by Gerda; 10/29/2001:48 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
A good lawyer will tell you the truth, like she did. A bad lawyer will let things drag out just to pad their bill.
Think about your goals in terms of priority and recognize you won't get everything you want.
If staying in the house is important to you and your lawyer thinks it's a possibility in the long run, then you COULD just make it the place you sleep at night and keep the rest of your life as separate as possible from your STBX in the meantime. If, on the other hand, being in a rental and away from his craziness will give you peace of mind and is financially doable even if it means a reduced standard of living - consider what that benefit will do for you. I can't remember if this is a rental or a house you own. If it's a rental - a shared home with a good roommate may be much nicer than your current living situation. Only you can decide that - but you were looking forward to the idea of moving away. Just moving out of the house where you are may give you similar relief. Now that you are working you could start saving money towards that goal at least.
Your attorney is right in that your ex can take you to court for almost anything, no matter how ridiculous, if he wants to. Doesn't mean he will win but it will cost you time and energy. Ask your attorney what a reasonable settlement would usually look like in your case. Ask for more but realize that is probably where you will end up and plan accordingly. And realize that there's a benefit to being done and away even if it costs you something to get there.
Try to avoid giving him anything to grab onto in terms of aggravating you. Don't give away all your rights but be strategic about what matters most. And in the meantime, LIVE! Don't put everything on hold in your life. Do fun things and look forward to your future.
I like all the advice you've been given above-- and want to second (third?) what Butterfly and DnJ are saying... you can do this. You've already done so much of the work. You will get through this and you will be better and stronger for it.
On the L fees... can you put together a budget of how much you're comfortable spending? When you put your business-only hat on, and remove any emotional connection you have to the place, there will be a tipping point where it becomes more expensive to hang onto it than to move (factoring in the L fees, the expense of moving, increased rent, etc). I'd do the math and keep that number in mind.
I'm sure he doesn't think you're going to stand up for yourself. I'm actually getting a kick out of thinking of him realizing you have a kick-@ss L on your side now and won't be rolling over on this one.
We're all here for you, Cardinal.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Oh boy Cardinal, I've missed a lot, a lot. Well your sweet soul will survive this. You sound like you have a good lawyer. And that you can see the forest through the trees for the most part. Don't let H's crazy take you down with him. You can rise above all this. And you will.
I wanted to pop in before I have to move on to my next Monday to-do item (my Mondays are so long), but now I've run out of time. I still want to thank you all so much for your encouragement. I want to go through these posts more carefully and reply soon! Wayfarer, I need to make it back to the Newcomers board to read your update—I've been thinking of you and hope you're doing well. I am so grateful for every one of you. I still don't know how I'm going to get through this next phase, but I choose to believe you all that I will.
H was gone for a week, starting on the day he knew I would be served. He has been back and in and out for a few days now, and the first time he came through my room, I said hello—it was a polite reflex, another human entering my space. Of course H has still not addressed the fact that he filed for an annulment, or that I was served at all; instead, he asked me where we buy our dryer sheets today. He couldn't find them at the store. I didn't know whether to laugh or scream. It's just all so, so strange, where their minds go! We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
I have to say, you are the queen of GAL, girl. In a couple short months (weeks??) you have gone from having a lot of time on your hands to being so in demand with work and obligations that we hardly see you! Yay for you!
I hope that the work is fulfilling and you are getting some external interactions with colleagues, if only virtually. Other people can help us realize what it feels like to be treated with respect and dignity and reinforce that we are indeed good people worthy of those things.
Originally Posted by cardinal
We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
In the early days after BD, I felt responsible for H's feelings, that they were somehow mine to fix. In the waning days of my co-dependency/attachment to H (like last month, haha), my primary response was based upon fear of his reactions and how they would make me feel. At that point, I didn't necessarily feel responsible for H's feelings, but I was still scared of those feelings.
Identifying the source of my reactions and feelings was a helpful exercise in the process of separating my feelings from H's feelings. Which helped aid detachment.
You are so full of growth, wisdom and curiosity, Cardinal. You are going to be just fine, no matter how hard H makes this process.
We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
In the early days after BD, I felt responsible for H's feelings, that they were somehow mine to fix. In the waning days of my co-dependency/attachment to H (like last month, haha), my primary response was based upon fear of his reactions and how they would make me feel. At that point, I didn't necessarily feel responsible for H's feelings, but I was still scared of those feelings.
I think like Sage said, being aware of possible co-dependency in your past R and work towards separating yourself from your H is the key. Once you've worked your way through it though, it might be that we "normal" folks just do not take these feelings/behavior well anyway. For me, when H blew up at me last time, I felt neither responsible for it nor was I scared of his feelings/actions. I was just both surprised and offended because what came out from him was not socially acceptable. A lot of times it's simply a conflict between what's expected (the social norm) vs MLC behavior.
I echo Sage's thought. If you do not feel responsible, then great. If you do, please work on letting it go.
I think I posted a while ago that H was on his phone screaming so loud at someone, I could hear with the door closed. I did not feel anything for his anger AND when he was done being on the phone, he never acknowledged what it was about-that's fine. It was not me. I knew that and did not care.
One of the things getting me through is DnJ's <barf>. It made me laugh, but that is what I want to write over and over today: <barf>. I'm filled with rage again—it started out as adrenaline, then fear, and then I woke up with all of that having been replaced by anger. It seems I spend a lot of time lately either laughing or feeling angry, shooting back and forth between both impulses. It is kind of funny: apparently according to H and L I've been having sex with other men (throughout our M? I'm not sure when in his mind this was happening). Total BS. He, of course, is the one who happily told me about his OW months ago. It's ridiculous. It's maddening. In H's mind there is no community property I am owed. Um, this is why there are laws in place? Maybe he should've gotten a prenup if he wanted to keep everything separate over a 10-year M? Yet I'm not comforted, like I used to be, in thinking any judge would of course see that he's just trying to avoid responsibility. I mean, look at Gerda's example! (Gerda, the cereal bowl is just... wow. I don't even know what to say about your latest update. Also--I don't think my L was saying it wasn't worth it to get H out of the house, but that trying to do that with some order from the court would most likely cost a lot of $ and would likely not work.)
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Ask the lawyer what you're entitled to. Ask to have stbx pay legal fees. Go for absolutely everything you are entitled to and settle for what makes sense to you, knowing that post D your stbx could and may not honor any agreements. You've been married over 10 years. You are entitled legally. It's not his decision, it's the law's.
I am trying to keep my head here, bttrfly. As job said, too:
Originally Posted by job
The law will state exactly what needs to be done and how it's done.
But I keep fast-forwarding to worst-case scenarios, then becoming angry that the law can't just step in early on and save us all a lot of money and time; it feels as if I am punished for asking for what I am entitled to. I have to jump through all these expensive hoops just to ask for what I am entitled to. It is crazy to me that I have had to hire a L to fight H's claim that I am entitled to nothing. I know that's not true. The law says that's not true. Yet here we are.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I needed to do that in order to get to the real answer which was that regardless of outcome, what was most important to me 5, 10 or 20 years down the road was that I could look back and say with all honesty that the balance of the time this unfolded I took the high road, I fought for fairness, I made the best decisions for my son's wellbeing that I could out of the miserable options I was given, and I could be proud of my conduct.
One thing that is bothering me now is that I want to fight for fairness, but I resent that doing so will cost me all the money. How lucky I was/am to have somehow saved up the money I needed for a retainer. But what next? What is my deeper fear? That I won't know the right time to walk away? Or that I won't fight as hard as I should for fairness?
Even as I type all this I realize it is not exactly a good use of my energy, bemoaning what has happened and what is happening—I can't change any of this. Still, I guess this is an attempt to recognize my anger and process it. To allow myself some anger. (Thinking here about some of your thoughts on anger lately, Sage and may.)
Originally Posted by Dejavu6
Yep...the rewriting of history is pretty stunning sometimes. But it is what they have to do to feel “good” about what they are doing. It has nothing to do with you or what you know to be the reality.
Thank you for this reminder, Dejavu, and for the reminder that M is a two-way street. I'm so glad your current R is more honest and direct, and that you see possibility in it. I love that your MIL is supportive and that you've been able to create a friendship with her and separate your history with H from your current friendship with her. This reminds me of what DnJ was saying too—that MIL is not really family anymore (this is still hard for me to accept, because in my mind H's family became my family when we M). My motives for wanting to reach out to MIL now are not great ones, now—I recognize I just really want to tell her all the crazy things H has done/is doing, because I don't think she knows half of it. Ha. So I will table that for the time being and let it be a fantasy. Maybe, like wooba says, that desire for a friendship with MIL will fade.
Oh, and good practical advice from kml and may, too, which I appreciate very much.
Originally Posted by may22
On the L fees... can you put together a budget of how much you're comfortable spending? When you put your business-only hat on, and remove any emotional connection you have to the place, there will be a tipping point where it becomes more expensive to hang onto it than to move (factoring in the L fees, the expense of moving, increased rent, etc). I'd do the math and keep that number in mind.
I need some help with this part. That is, separating fairness and the creatures I care for here from the money side of all this. It would most definitely cost a lot of money to leave, in the short and long term, but what is the tipping point? Maybe I can reach out to a friend for help with calculations. Also, I think it's hard for people who don't live in this area (or people who do live here but aren't looking for housing) to realize how few options there are out there in terms of housing, especially rental. It's no joke.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
This is a great question, Sage, and one I need to keep thinking about. At the moment it's less that I really feel responsible for his feelings and actions and more that I am surprised and offended, as wooba wrote. The social norm vs. MLC behavior thing. I recognize that he is responsible for how he reacts, that he feels what he feels, but that doesn't mean I have to share his reality. But I also think there is still a part of me that is subconsciously eager to take on blame, and I don't always realize it as it's happening. Like, just because he is doing all he can to sidestep any responsibility for the decisions he's made in his life, including marrying me and staying married to me, doesn't mean that responsibility then needs to be claimed by someone else, but, oops, look, I guess I felt the need to pick it up and carry it. Is that what that awful weight has been? It's like a rock I keep finding in my backpack and keep throwing out, to harken back to Sage's analogy.
For example, when I read DnJ's response to wooba's H's outburst--he's projecting, he's blaming, it's about him--it seemed so clearly true to me, and I realized that, though my H has done and said similar things to me, I don't always have that same ability to step back and see it for what it is. There is still a part of me that seems to wants to say... well, what if it really is partly about you? It's like I'm discovering for the first time just how willing I was to accept that H didn't have equal agency or responsibility throughout our M, and just when I think I've dug and dug and pulled that weed, I find more root; it spouts again. And then I have to remember to pause and see it for what it is--something in me I need to call out and work on. But also it seems clear I'm sometimes scared of his feelings and actions--more scared of what his feelings and actions could bring about in the (my) world. (Thanks for the encouragement to keep working on it, PLC! You are doing so well!)
Anyway, here's where I need to dwell for now, I think:
Originally Posted by bttrfly
My dear, the Universe is telling you something. Pay attention, please!!! You've done this once, you can and will be able to do this again, as often as you need to, either there or in another state. You're already being taken care of Cardinal, don't you see? Have faith. Trust and roll with it. In the struggle is the suffering.
and
Originally Posted by DnJ
Remember a lot of your concerns and fears will not come to pass. Sure, some will, and as they become reality the fear dissipates as the situation moves from imagined to real. And fear moves from irrational response to rational problem solving.
I think I've been writing this post for well over an hour. Glad to have stolen some time to reply to you all and, well, apparently it wasn't enough time to really organize my thoughts! But they're here, anyway.
Two posts in two days! IC asked if I was afraid of H's spewing because I thought he might be physically abusive or if it was something else. An echo of Sage's question. I've been thinking about that. I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts. The psychological aspect almost feels worse to me—the gaslighting, the constant cognitive dissonance of living with someone who says the last seventeen years were not real. It seems he finds some other aspect to rewrite the longer this goes on, so maybe that's part of it. I'm always on high alert even when I think I'm not. It's not only that he says in so many ways our R wasn't real because he never really loved me or I never really loved him (and I know I can choose to trust my own experience, as difficult as that is sometimes); it's also that his actions and behavior reinforce that unreality. How could my memories be accurate, I think; how could he both be the person who did and said x, y, z over the years, and the person who's done and said all that he's done in the last two? It gets harder for me to grasp the more extreme his behavior gets. MLC and/or personality disorder, I remind myself, but I could do all the reading in the world and understand this intellectually and at the end of the day I can replay a good memory from our M in my head and compare it to what's happening now, and it just doesn't make sense on an emotional level. It's like my brain is still trying to integrate all of this information: H was a person who I trusted, who I felt safe with, and now H is the opposite.
IC's question. I don't think he would get physical, but when it comes down to it, I don't know this person; I can't say anymore with any confidence what he would or would not do. He's now outright lying in order to support this crazy idea that I defrauded him, or he's going along with his L's idea to lie, or he actually believes the lies. All of these possibilities are unsettling to me. I see what Sage was getting at in an earlier post—can I separate the emotion from this and just think of him as a person who really wants to avoid any responsibility of owing me anything, this is all a business deal for him, etc? I'm struggling with this, because he's willing to lie about something so personal and private as a means to this end, or if he has actually come to believe it... maybe it is more the fragmentation of this other I thought I knew as well as myself that scares me?
