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Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906761
10/26/20 09:08 PM
10/26/20 09:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
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Andrew,

I am curious...are all of her kids by the same father, i.e., the last one she was married to? I can't help but wonder if all of the men that she's been married to and gone w/didn't have the same issues with her living arrangements as you do.

The hoarding will not get better in time. As it has been pointed out, hoarding is a issue that is very, very difficult to break, if ever. She's formed an attachment to all of that stuff she's moved into your home, has at her h's place, etc. She can't face letting any of it go. Problem is, a lot of that stuff will never be used by her or her children and as time moves along, some of that stuff will dry rot or just plain fall to pieces and/or rust away. I don't see this particular behavior changing. Sure, she'll make an effort, but it will not last very long.

She has been so use to living in chaos that she's blind to it all as well as nose blind to the odors. Trust me, you may have your house neat and tidy, as well as the floors clean at the moment, but they won't stay that way for very long. There truly is no excuse for living like that in your home. S, S18 and S13 are old enough to keep things tidy. They should be picking up after themselves as well as keeping their animal cages clean, as well as taking care of their pets.

Now, about the spending. S has absolutely no problem spending YOUR money. Instead of ordering in, if you know you have items in the freezer, call her out on this and advise her that you are not going to fork over the funds for ordering in when you can whip up a good home cooked meal.

BTW, I, like the others, think that you have given this relationship your best shot. She's been there five months and nothing has improved in the way of getting your house in order and quite frankly, I don't think she respects you as much as you think. If she did, she would be listening and doing things to make your life better. Put the wallet away, close the bank down and make her responsible for whatever expensive treats that she wants to buy and consume.

Grow some gonads and start speaking up. You, in your own way, are passive as heck. You need to be very to the point and just tell her that her hoarding and her way of dealing with household chores is not making you happy. Also, you need to address the fact that she needs to get out of that bed and take her S18 to work. She is his mother and you are not the taxi for her children. You are not their father and they are not your responsibility.

Andrew, you will know when you have had enough and I sure hope it is not far off. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will be to tell her that she needs to go. Winter and the holidays are fast approaching...if she needs to move, it will need to be before the snow season begins.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906767
10/26/20 11:05 PM
10/26/20 11:05 PM
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You say you want to give this every chance you can......

There is one thing you havenít tried

Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive.

Is that something you want to try?

Re: And now another special feature [Re: Ginger1] #2906769
10/26/20 11:57 PM
10/26/20 11:57 PM
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DonH Online
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Originally Posted by Dawn70
I do think people have the ability to change. I just think it is rare that they actually DO change. By in large, people do not change who they are inherently without some big push and a lot of hard work and most people just don't put in that sort of effort.

Of everything said, I could not agree with this statement more. I believe it is true with every inch of my being. The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but itís rare they change. It doesnít mean itís not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, ďI thought he (or she) would change after we got married.Ē OMG. People rarely change.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
You say you want to give this every chance you can...... There is one thing you havenít tried - Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive. Is that something you want to try?

Another very good point. For once Iím taking a bit of a softer approach (LH 19 - lol) but I have to say, these things keep happening, and there seems no indication Andrew even wants to change. To the contrary, Iíve seen responses that almost seem disgusted or offended with a suggestion like being a bit more alpha make - as if youíd rather lose your legs than be an alpha male. I see excuses almost like itís better to be a nice guy who gets walked all over than stand up for yourself and risk hurting someoneís feelings. You almost wear it as a badge of honor. You see how your dad was walked over and taken advantage of but almost strive to be the same or at least see nothing wrong with it - as if being nice and not hurting someoneís feelings Trumps everything. Then again some think that voting for someone who will lower your taxes is also an evil thing. I just donít get it. We canít fix the world. Itís a huge bonus if we can make it tiny bit better but not at the price of being harmful or detrimental to us. Remember when people used to utter phrases like, nice guys finish last, or look out for number one? Evidently those have been added to the PUC or micro-aggression list of things you canít think or say anymore. Thereís a lot to be said for the happy middle. For sure itís best not to intentionally cause harm - but the first person we shouid make sure is not harmed is ourselves - with the possible exception of children or family.


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906804
10/27/20 01:36 PM
10/27/20 01:36 PM
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Posts: 3,428
Canada
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Originally Posted by job
I am curious...are all of her kids by the same father, i.e., the last one she was married to? I can't help but wonder if all of the men that she's been married to and gone w/didn't have the same issues with her living arrangements as you do.
The oldest D26 was as far as I know unplanned with #2 who she then had a common law relationship. S22 she was required to get a paternity test on as she was already in a relationship with #3 at that point even though she goes to great lengths on having been faithful to #2. The timelines appear a bit scrambled to me.

The other three were from her marriage to #3 - one at the very beginning and then one that coincided with each breakdown in the relationship. Money seemed to be the main problem there.

She hit menopause in her early 40s shortly after S13 was born in 2007 which was also coincidental with her formal diagnosis of ADD. She was grateful for that diagnosis because she recognized that she had zero ability to concentrate and get stuff done. She married last in 2012 after co-habitating for a year or so I believe.

I have little information on S's past house-keeping beyond hearsay from her kids - especially her oldest on how she was always picking up after her mother.

#3 was / is a definite slob and she was left on her own with the kids most of the time while he traveled for business (and emptied the bank account). If she wasn't a slob before then those years solidified that it was ok to not care.

I know that she had a lot of resentment towards her former partner and his insistence on "his" house being "just so". So I know she's capable of doing it. Just doesn't like to especially when forced. She described the joy she had on being able to load the dishwasher any old way that she wanted when she moved out.

Her Dad was very much a traditionalist who expected women to be seen and not heard and that his dinner be hot and ready on the table when he got home from work. His wife as far as I can tell was a pretty tough lady who while she did the domestic things also spoke her mind.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
You say you want to give this every chance you can......

There is one thing you havenít tried

Actually having boundaries, speaking up, and not being so passive.

Is that something you want to try?
It's tough but I think is the best answer. I know that I have been harder on people than my Dad was and have had conversations with S about her D19's BF being a "taker" and how I did not want such people around. Even with that, it's still pretty easy to steam-roller over me.

Originally Posted by DonH
The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but itís rare they change. It doesnít mean itís not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, ďI thought he (or she) would change after we got married.Ē OMG. People rarely change.
Oddly I still have people come up to me who remember / recognize me from high-school and who I have no clue at all who they are.

Got the kitchen floor scrubbed yesterday, cleaned out some stuff from the fridge and had left-overs for dinner. S's response to my day and accomplishments when I messaged before turning in to bed early to read was just "love you". She did message later that she was busy and was sorry she didn't chat.

It may perhaps seem weird that when she goes away that instead of being a slob that I go full on Felix Unger and start scrubbing the house. Depending on how the day goes today I may wash the inside of the windows.

Given that she's commented in a perhaps snarky way about how I seem happier when she's not here and given her history with bad relationships she is hopefully aware that perhaps past patterns seem to be repeating. She's not a stupid person and I believe has actually read all of those relationship books that she has.

I did hear from her a short while ago - she is up astoundingly early and has to pick up her Dad's ashes. I still don't expect her home until sometime Friday - probably very late.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906807
10/27/20 02:13 PM
10/27/20 02:13 PM
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Posts: 610
UK
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Andrew,

Reading above about you scrubbing the floors....... a song came into my head.

ĎIím gonna wash that man right out of my hair!í

Just saying.

Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906809
10/27/20 02:25 PM
10/27/20 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AndrewP


It may perhaps seem weird that when she goes away that instead of being a slob that I go full on Felix Unger and start scrubbing the house. Depending on how the day goes today I may wash the inside of the windows.



I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but surely I'm not the only one thinking this...Öit doesn't seem weird at all because that is who you are, Andrew. You run a tight ship and want it a certain way. You don't get that when S is around because you are too nice to tell her to get her @$$ up and help and make her boys help as well. So, the fact that you do it when she isn't there isn't at all surprising to me (and likely not surprising to anyone else who has read any of your posts either). It goes back to my point and Don's agreement that people just do not typically change. You want things a certain way and you can have that when she is gone. Does that at all give you some insight into her protestations that the one X of hers wanted his things "just so"? Don't you think that is part of her narrative to manipulate? I suspect that if you all do end up apart, you will get a similar narrative when she recounts her side of the story to others.


Me 50, H52
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
4 grandkids (plus 2 on the way)
Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906844
10/27/20 05:51 PM
10/27/20 05:51 PM
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Quote
I know that she had a lot of resentment towards her former partner and his insistence on "his" house being "just so". So I know she's capable of doing it.


I don't see how it logically follows that she was capable of doing it. Sounds more likely to me that she was NOT capable of doing it (and that his demands may be exaggerated by her, as I'm sure she exaggerates your reasonable demands to others). I imagine she tells others you are a clean freak fussbudget. Which you certainly do NOT seem to be, your requests seem quite reasonable and her sloppiness seems way out of the ordinary. While I certainly can agree that people can have very different standards of cleanliness, and I'm certainly no clean freak myself, routinely leaving food out overnight is a health hazard, and leaving dirty dishes not even rinsed overnight is an invitation to a cockroach infestation. That seems outside the realm of most adult people's standards.

Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906849
10/27/20 06:24 PM
10/27/20 06:24 PM
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DonH Online
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by DonH
The guy or gal you knew in high school is probably pretty much the very same person 50 years later - for sure 25. People may alter who they are but itís rare they change. It doesnít mean itís not possible - just not common or likely. The sooner people figure this out the better their lives will be. How many people have you heard, after a M went bad, say, ďI thought he (or she) would change after we got married.Ē OMG. People rarely change.
Oddly I still have people come up to me who remember / recognize me from high-school and who I have no clue at all who they are.

Well, yeah, physically people change - that's pretty much unavoidable. In fact, in many ways, they change whether they want to or not - loss of hair, saggy body parts, wrinkles, etc. I'm talking about changing who they are as a person. The wise-arse is still likely the wise-arse, the driven academic is likely the same person, the bully is still the bully, and the shy, introvert is just as shy - their personalities, who they are and how they act is often very recognizable, even if their face and body are not.

But I'm pretty sure you already knew that. Odd you'd divert it to something different. I don't understand what the point was, but I don't understand many things that occur so, no difference there. LOL


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Re: And now another special feature [Re: AndrewP] #2906927
10/28/20 02:04 PM
10/28/20 02:04 PM
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bttrfly Online
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Don - distraction technique because Andrew doesn't really a. want to or b. know how to change his own piece of this particular pie.
JMHO


M 20+ T25+
S 15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
H moved out 4/24/15
D Final 12/23/16
When God gives you a new beginning don't repeat the same old mistakes. It's 2020, anything could happen; eat dessert first!!!!
Re: And now another special feature [Re: bttrfly] #2907132
10/29/20 11:56 PM
10/29/20 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bttrfly
Don - distraction technique because Andrew doesn't really a. want to or b. know how to change his own piece of this particular pie.
JMHO
Or I'm completely oblivious and interpreted it differently and superficially.

-----

What a week! We're going through shutdown / plant maintenance just before month-end, inventory counts, full moon, clock changing and Halloween. I personally expect to see doodler rise from the pit we use as an environmental buffer as a specter of DB past wearing an old bed-sheet and sequined pumps holding an "I told you so" sign and asking where the really nasty stuff is stored.

Today was particularly crazy as we are hoping to get the plant started back up tomorrow morning and it's not looking good. As could be expected with something as complicated as it is and the number of things being adjusted and refreshed especially along the steam lines making sure we do it "right" is very important. Since I'm generally fairly useless with the engineering parts I traveled around picking up random parts that were needed as I was a pair of hands that could be spared. One of the engineers was joking that we needed Amazon Prime to which I replied that they had Andrew Prime where I would buy stuff on my personal credit card, pick it up, deliver it and hope that my expense report would go through. One of my roles was with the updates to the control systems which was largely finished today. Doing some more work on that tonight while reading and typing. A bunch of updates that I just need to monitor.

I think that it's appreciated that I really don't care what I'm doing as long as it adds value. I spent about 15 minutes running around the plant trying to find the driver of a particular pickup who had parked right exactly where we needed to move some equipment. A necessary job that someone had to do and certainly the guys who were doing actual real work weren't the right ones to do it. The company president was dispatched to pick up a replacement fan housing for similar reasons.

I will say that I've not had this much fun at work in years. One of the people who I regard as a role model, Admiral James Stavridis (ret) wrote in one of his several books that I own that it's better to be an officer on a small ship than a big one and being able to be involved in pretty much "everything" is certainly one of the benefits.

I messaged S when I got home and got a brief answer back. She did agree that "beer-o-clock" seemed like a good idea after such a crazy day and regretted that she couldn't do that.

----------------

S has been gone since Sunday lunch-time and as far as I know is working through things at her Dad's house. In some ways it's hard to believe that she's been gone more or less for the last 2 weeks. The house is certainly tidier and feels lighter and brighter as sad as that is to say.

I do think that she is aware that I am not devastated that she's not here and have been managing perfectly fine which I would "think" would be something that would be bothering her. I've not had much chance to do more cleaning but the house doesn't get dirty as fast with just her S18, his bunnies, her 2 cats and me here.

I've heard very little from her since she's been gone. Very few messages initiated by her, few facts. S18 has said that he's heard from her some. She did suggest yesterday that she wants to call me and misses my voice but I haven't heard the phone ring. Somewhat of a contrast to B who was constantly on the phone with me (and everyone else).

My understanding is that she's going through her Dad's (and Mom's) clothes and such-like and figuring out what is to be donated or not. She is hoping to meet with a lawyer tomorrow. She's shared nothing else about what is going on and I don't really expect her to even when she comes home this weekend.

In other news S18 found an air purifier with a washable filter at a decent price so he and I went out and bought that on Tuesday after he was done work. I don't feel that I notice the barnyard smell from his rabbits quite as much.

S18 and I have had a number of talks of varying degrees. He has a lot of depth of opinion for an 18 year old and is willing to listen to contrary opinions and absorb in new facts. He's quite smart and it's too bad that circumstances have prevented him from academic success. I think that especially without his mother pushing him along that his attempt to return to school this year has stalled.

He's commented again that I am significantly better than any of the other men his mother had been with. That she had pretty much given up on meeting anyone decent before meeting me. He's a pretty harsh critic of his mother. Nasty in fact, especially about her house-habits. He does love her sincerely but perhaps like me, finds her hard to live with. Not that he's a neat and tidy person either. He does clearly remember what the house was like before though and how much I was proud of it and I think understands that I am struggling now.

That does make one wonder if S would think that this relationship would be one that would be worth trying harder on working on herself to be a better partner for someone like me. Of the two of us she certainly is much more the one with a lot to lose if this doesn't work out. Her father's passing would help her be financially independent for a while which I am sure is on her mind.

I've been giving things a lot of thought lately and I think along with the phrase "easy to love, hard to live with", there's one key word that I think is core to the issues here. Respect.

Typing that word really makes me think. Does S in fact respect herself? She doesn't respect her environment and doesn't treat those around her with what I would think of as respect. Love yes. Respect no.

I think that one of the things she doesn't "get" about me is that while I'm not attached to things, I do respect them. Sort of a Marie Kondo thing. I look around me and the objects that I see all have some sort of meaning to me and I take care of them. The small statue of Don Quixote, the little wooden mouse my daughter gave me, heck - my pen basket, work calculator. I could go on and on. I take care of them. I also care about people and critters and take care of them too.

S doesn't. Tossing a box with my grandmother's hand-made quilt on top of a pile of other things. Pouring cooking grease into my "Dad" mug, using the good kitchen scissors to trim the dog's fur. Her kids are here, there, move out, move back. Her own father was incredibly reluctant to have S to be the custodian of his things because he felt that she wouldn't take care of them. This offended her. And he was undoubtedly right.

This also perhaps goes out to people including me and is perhaps a point of conversation that is non-confrontational enough to be of use during our - presumably - upcoming therapy session next week.

----

On another note, I came across a backup of things related to my divorce which included the surveillance videos from my wife's roaming through the house. Yeah - so much arrogance and anger. Seeing her in those now 4 year old images makes me not miss that life.

I have referred to my wife has a hoarder and perhaps she was. Certainly in the earlier part of our marriage although around the same time as she "got it" about our finances she also started purging and being proud of reducing the clutter and stuff around. I still thought that there was too much un-organized stuff piled here and there. I saw the pictures again. My word- I'd be thrilled to be back to that level of mess. The dining room was unusable yes - but most of the house was pretty well organized - a mutual accomplishment. Some piles here and there that had accreted for a decade or more, but they were small piles by comparison.

One of the things that does go through my mind is that S does know - I think - that I was happier before she was in my life and that her being away is a bit of a holiday for me. Will that help her let go of me? Will it encourage her to examine why this is the case? I don't know. Is she considering moving her and her boys to her Dad's house? It's a simple short term solution. She's already spent the better part of 2 weeks there. Will she be willing to do the hard work that we here tell people in Newcomers to do? I was thinking earlier today on what sort of feedback she would get if she were on that side of the fence and if she would actually heed it. I know that I was particularly dense and resistant. Some things never do seem to change laugh

Ah well - perhaps enough for now. I'm certainly enjoying beer #2 as I watch the numbers count up on the updates for the plant.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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