And now another special feature

[AndrewP]

A bit dis-jointed this morning. I don't have the time or energy for some of the editing and re-organizing of my thought flow that I usually do.

Andrew, there are more red flags here than at a Chinese rally. I can't believe you can't see them and to be blunt, I don't believe you can't see them either.

I 100% agree with bttrfly. You need to address your very obvious co-dependency issues.

I disagree with your arm-chair diagnosis of co-dependency. There is a tendency here to toss around blame-the-victim labels including this one. It is unproductive and for those in a more vulnerable state like I was years ago in Newcomers, can do actual damage.

I know that I have issues. I am too trusting. I can fairly easily be bullied into taking actions that I later regret as is the case here (again). But other than being affected by the issues of my partner, I'm not enabling nor is my own life wrapped up in trying to "fix" her's which is my understanding of the definition of co-dependency.

So if there’s a small policy that covers the funeral expenses, why do you have to spend any money? Please don’t pay the probate costs. That’s on her and her brother. They will be the ones benefiting from it.

Sorry for any possible confusion. I was never implying that I would be assisting with covering the costs directly related to her Dad's passing. I was figuring though that we may have to cough up a few bucks to pay utility bills etc to keep the house running until they can get it all settled out. It does seem that the death business is a well oiled machine though and S has been guided to a number of service firms that will guide her and assist her with the various issues. Personally I don't have absolute faith in well oiled machines but then again, I'm not involved and from the little I've learned they seem to be very competent. I am sure that they have methods of making sure that the heat and electricity stay on and that his car payment is made. There is an awful lot I don't know about how being dead works.

Just a thought experiment for you, Andrew - what would be a good outcome for YOU of couples counseling? Are you hoping the therapist can convince her not to be a hoarder? To get a job? To pull her weight?

I do know that this therapist has been working with S for some time on her various issues. But I also recognize that long term, sustained changes are unlikely. S is aware - perhaps more than most - of what her issues are and what the coping mechanisms are. She just svcks at implementing them.

Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.

-----------

S is (probably) heading back to her Dad's house this afternoon and is planning on not coming back until Friday. She said she will probably go while I'm out for brunch with my son. I nudged her to take her dog again as I am at the plant 2 days this week and cannot take care of her. She suggested S18 be responsible but then backed down from that quickly.

Certainly a very tense weekend here in many ways. I did let S know that I had found some of the words I'd been looking for "easy to love, hard to live with". To nobody's surprise she rebutted immediately that my ex-wife was a hoarder and an all-round nasty person and that I was good with that. Implying that she wasn't nearly so difficult. I don't think she "got" my response that she's taken that to a whole new level on the hoarding part at least. To illustrate that it takes time to get comfortable with someone else, I did say that as far as a "perfect match" goes that perhaps there was just the one person - my ex - who I could live with without working at it. Because we had so much practice getting used to each other's ways. That did "not" go over well even when I commented that there was no way on this earth that I would entertain her coming back. I was trying to illustrate that it takes time for people to get used to each other and especially when you get older and used to something that having something different is difficult. S has never had any stable long-term relationship (I believe) so doesn't have that frame of reference. I think that this wasn't a productive line of conversation though with her (dodges the bricks being thrown).

We spent a couple of hours watching TV together last night. She had been binge-watching baking shows and so I asked for something a bit more thoughtful like a mystery. Poirot would have been my choice - surprisingly she is not at all familiar with Agatha Christie other than general knowledge of the author. That wasn't available though and so we watched a couple of episodes of "Monk". I teased and she teased back that living with a character like Monk was probably as difficult as living with me. For those unfamiliar with the show, the Monk character is stricken with OCD and phobias especially around cleanliness and organization and will obsessively clean and tidy.

She has let drop a number of comments which I'm choosing to not interpret as snarky about how much I'll enjoy having the house to myself and be able to clean and tidy and drink beer. Hey - it's true. I did assure her that I would certainly miss having her to cuddle up with.

It perhaps didn't help that after we watched TV that I did the dishes, cleaned the cat-boxes and then swept the stairs and the cobwebs that I had noticed in the living room ceiling. This place "really" needs a good clean. She at least didn't try to stop me this time telling me that "the boys are supposed to do the stairs".

I think that what S really really wants me to do is to just grow a pair - tell her bluntly that this isn't working out and to haul herself, crew and hoard out onto the street. She's had this happen to her before I think. Someone who is trying to be compassionate and isn't a jerk is I think different for her. This would put the blame and onus completely on me and not her and would make it easier on her in some ways. On the other hand, I would prefer it to be a mutual choice to either split or work on things and at this point "work on things" is where we are at.

I think one of the challenges with her and her former partner is that the guy - from all accounts - is a decent enough guy who would I think like to have her back under his terms. The reasons S used, I am now confident, his gambling, lies and secrecy about his activities as an excuse to move out. But kept being drawn back in and did take advantage of his good nature to store quite a lot of stuff at his house. It was on-again and off again for now going on 8 years. And as has been speculated, she may chose to "give it another try" with him if she leaves here. I wouldn't be surprised. They've never really let go of each other despite S's assurances to me that it was very much over years and years ago.

S has made a comment several times that she didn't take having her boys and herself move in here lightly - putting the onus on me for that choice which is no surprise. I didn't say no so I will accept that. I had been told up to a few days before move-in that it would only be S13 - but it is what it is - to paraphrase a certain orange politician.

S did do quite an amount of laundry this weekend though and even folded mine that was in her way in the dryer. She also found most of the laundry room floor, picking up and putting away the random baskets of clothes and this and that that were there. It had been impossible to get to the pantry shelves without stepping in/on stuff so this is very helpful.

She never cooked a meal all weekend. Friday we ordered fish and chips from the new shop around the corner. Fairly decent. Last night S ordered in pizza. We do own food. I had suggested that we eat up some left-overs but she had no energy or interest in that. I suppose that I could have cooked too. I do know how to do that but S didn't seem interested in that either.

We did go grocery shopping yesterday and S suggested that we stock up on convenience food since her S18 and I would be on our own (the freezer is full of convenience foods). She was startled and I think offended when I got fresh vegetables, yogurt and other things and said that I would probably make a couple of stir-fries, and also pack my lunches the way that I used to. Frozen pizza was purchased for S18. S bought some groceries for herself that she'll take saying that she will probably make spaghetti. If she is there by herself, that's an odd choice as she usually makes enough for 8. She has pretty much zero experience though cooking for one and that is her general "go-to" as it was for my ex-wife. I always knew when it was a "minimal effort" day when pasta was on the table.

Even though I think it's adding on complexity that perhaps isn't good for S right now given everything else she is dealing with, she is intending on making a fresh appointment for us to go to counseling next week (start of November). I can in many ways feel her literally pulling back from me - last night she spent a bunch of time on the edge of the bed. Usually she's sprawled largely on my side. The attraction and love are there still. I can feel it. But I can feel her slipping away as well. And she can perhaps feel me not pulling her back in.

I think the words I found are helpful to us both. I think I've been able to reassure her that I do love "her", just not "living" with her. I am committed though to giving this my best and most honest shot while not subordinating my own needs to have a healthy environment to live in. If she is unable to live in that environment as a contributing member, then we'll need to part ways as I can't do it all alone.

It's not going to be easy. In part because S has a mind-set that others will take care of things and that it's the responsibility of others to fix them. Easier when she had a house-full of kids perhaps that she could chore-chart and nag. Her oldest really took care of pretty much everything and everyone from a very young age I am sure. She has asked me to talk to S18 about cleaning his room and rabbit hutch (very barnyard here) and to say that it was me asking and not her. While I know it to be the case, I can't comprehend the mind-set where you are sure that your kids will listen to a virtual stranger vs their own mother.

I don't know how relationships "usually" end. In most cases I've been the guy who gets dumped - often as a shock to me. Sometimes gently, sometimes not. In a few cases the person I've been involved with and I have drifted apart and then just lost touch. Certainly easier in the pre-social media world of the 1980s.

On the other hand, I have less experience with making a difficult relationship work other than that one case that turned out rather well over-all until the end. Which I am still confident had nothing to do with me as a husband, father and partner.

Ah well - positive attitudes gives positive feelings. It should be a good day today. I get to see my son and "the girls". I may get some tidying done - perhaps try to scrub the cat pee stink out of the laundry room floor. Might have a nice soak in the tub with - gasp - a bottle of wine and a good book. My current plan is to broil up some steaks and do up potatoes - perhaps home-made baked wedges or maybe baked for her son and I for dinner tonight.

[bttrfly]

Andrew, any of this ring a bell?

* Difficulty making decisions in a relationship
* Difficulty identifying your feelings
* Difficulty communicating in a relationship
* Valuing the approval of others more than valuing yourself
* Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem
* Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval
* Having an unhealthy dependence on relationships, even at your own cost
* Having an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others

Has a yes answer to any of the above questions made your life unmanageable?

Denial is more than a river in Egypt.

I'm putting down the 2x4 now.

[DonH]

I disagree with your arm-chair diagnosis of co-dependency. There is a tendency here to toss around blame-the-victim labels including this one. It is unproductive and for those in a more vulnerable state like I was years ago in Newcomers, can do actual damage. I know that I have issues. I am too trusting. I can fairly easily be bullied into taking actions that I later regret as is the case here (again). But other than being affected by the issues of my partner, I'm not enabling nor is my own life wrapped up in trying to "fix" her's which is my understanding of the definition of co-dependency.

Oh, now here comes the stubbornness. I’ll agree, none of us have the training or experience to hang a diagnosis here. But, clearly there is something within you that could use a professional adjustment. It’s glaringly evident.

S is (probably) heading back to her Dad's house this afternoon and is planning on not coming back until Friday. She said she will probably go while I'm out for brunch with my son. I nudged her to take her dog again as I am at the plant 2 days this week and cannot take care of her. She suggested S18 be responsible but then backed down from that quickly.

See, to my eye, this seems very much like enabling. Beyond that, S is “probably” heading back this afternoon and “probably” living there for the week? Probably? Did the two of you not discuss it? Or do you just not trust what she told you? Either way, how is this part of a healthy R? She does whatever she wants and you fund it. Like a car payment for her father. How in the heck should you be making or helping to make this payment?

She never cooked a meal all weekend. Friday we ordered fish and chips from the new shop around the corner. Fairly decent. Last night S ordered in pizza. We do own food. I had suggested that we eat up some left-overs but she had no energy or interest in that. I suppose that I could have cooked too. I do know how to do that but S didn't seem interested in that either.

Why does S get to make all of these decisions? Why do you have zero say in your own house? with things that you then have to pay for - and we know you paid for the take out - correct? Again, I don’t know if this is enabling or codependency, but it’s certainly not healthy.

I think that what S really really wants me to do is to just grow a pair - tell her bluntly that this isn't working out and to haul herself, crew and hoard out onto the street.

I hate to speak for the others here, but I’m pretty sure this is what many of us here really want for you. S and the rest of us finally agree.

There’s a lot more in there but perhaps others can tackle those items. I know this remains difficult but just like S expects everyone else to take care of things, you seem to expect someone else or something else to change them. It’s here that I think Devvo, myself and others think you really could benefit from some C - but only if you truly want to change how you deal with S and others. Otherwise your quite of S seems to scream sense to me. Im willing to bet S would have much more respect for you if this were to happen. Her always getting her way slowly erodes that away.

Enjoy the time with your son. It would seem you’ve seen him more in the last month than in the mast 3. That’s great to see. And yes, I again agree with S, you will likely enjoy your week alone and a few beers. Nothing wrong with that either.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Andrew

My advice of “be you” a few weeks ago is around 200 posts back. Things have sure been busy in your life.

S’s lacklustre desire for what to have for supper is pretty reasonable. She is going to be depressed for a while over the death of her father. That is going to show in all kinds of ways. Staying on her side of the bed for example. Of course there are other pressures her, and you, are under; sorting out relationship strife.

We need to be careful here that we don't get ahead of ourselves. We can't put this all to bed and presume that she's going to go on her merry way since that's not happened. We are still a couple, still engaged, still co-habitating, her boys still think of the house as home and still - yes - financially entangled.

I think the words I found are helpful to us both. I think I've been able to reassure her that I do love "her", just not "living" with her. I am committed though to giving this my best and most honest shot while not subordinating my own needs to have a healthy environment to live in. If she is unable to live in that environment as a contributing member, then we'll need to part ways as I can't do it all alone.

When the feelings have faded and beliefs and values reassert themselves, your clear picture emerges. That is where you currently are. And the direction and heading of your values - your best and honest shot.

I am on your side and will support you.

I would like to dispel (in my humble opinion) the idea that people cannot, or do not, change. This is false. People are always changing, it is just that the rate of change is slow.

I am different than I was five years ago. You are different as well. I, and you, are also different than we were one year ago. People are continually changing.

Granted some values and convictions we carry throughout our entire lives. Beliefs are deeply ingrained and slow to change. Most times we amble along and live our values, seemly never altering them. Over time some get strengthened, some get altered, and some get discarded.

People usually do not look to affect their own belief system. Therefore, it seems that people are unable to change, due to not knowing how, and one having not recognized their own changes over time.

Absolutely S can change. So can you. Anyone can change. It depends upon them and their choice to do so. Not try to change. Do change.

Deep ingrained habits require effort and time to alter. Convictions and values would be the good habits. Addictions and vices would be the poor habits. Both are part of one’s beliefs, the system that guides us.

And by the way, good or poor, values or vices, is dependent upon viewpoint. People are seldom the villain in their own story, their beliefs are “good” in their eyes.

So how to change. First one realizes their willingness and desire to change. Then it is breaking the old habit and forming a new one. One can only influence their beliefs. One influences by utilizing that which they have direct control over - their own thoughts and physical actions.

An example is leaving dishes undone. Of course the cause in not always simple and usually the roots of one thing affect many. However, see clearly. Be accurate. Dishes undone is too vague. Dishes are unwashed, sitting on the counter and filling the sink. Why? To complicated, and the reason why doesn’t get the dishes washed, dried, and put away. (By the way, that just clearly identified the change you’d like to make)

What can one control? Themselves. Their physical action (or inaction). Every single meal. Every one! Wash the dishes. Dry the dishes. Put them away.

It takes on average three weeks of consistent effort to create a habit. It takes somewhere around twice that to break one. The habit / belief of leaving dishes “undone” can be completely altered in 9 short weeks. Maybe even less.

It takes time, with consistent effort, to break an old habit. And it takes time to create the new habit. These habits, these beliefs, are second nature to us. They appear to be who we are, for they truly are. And how many people are wanting to change who they are? We have grown accustom to ourselves. After all, we have lived with us for our entire lives. Lol

Dishes is a simple example. Although it’s roots will touch upon other things. Other habits/beliefs are obviously more complex and have more pulling at one’s self than a sink of dishes. Poor money management, living in clutter, and such are changeable once one decided too.

The idea of needing to hit rock bottom before one can change is pretty true. The fact is, the bottom is where you decide it is. Hitting it, is when you decide it is. These decisions are usually the result of some major upheaval; for example the death of a father, or the destruction of a marriage.

One doesn’t need to wait to actually hit the rock bottom and end up in an emergency from an overdose or nervous breakdown, although plenty do. One just needs to hit their rock bottom. I think most go well beyond their point due to lack of support and their own shame and guilt and the stigma attached to it prevent one from reaching out. And of course there is the wide spread misbelief of “people cannot change”.

Nothing quite like a firm belief to hamstring the process and possibility of change.

Andrew, be you.

You are committed to giving this R your best shot. So do it. Believe in it. For if you don’t believe, I guarantee that will self fulfill.

Support S through this sad and difficult time of loss. Assure her, and you, the value in your relationship. Be open with her about what you need and want. Ask her what she needs and wants. If she is happy and proud of her life. And lead by example.

I think I’ve shared plenty of my beliefs. It’s your’s that matter.

Strengthen those you like and are proud of. Alter or discard those you aren’t.

D

[kml]

Dnj - I agree that people CAN change. But sloppiness is a different thing than hoarding. The problem with the dishes MIGHT be fixable, although you are fighting a rebellious child mindset against her father, transferred to Andrew.

But hoarding is a form of mental illness, related to OCD but more difficult to treat. Her relationship to her stuff is typical for a hoarder. Unused things with price tags still on them. Buying things for future grandchildren. Difficulty letting go of anything because she “might” need it. Replacing stuff with more stuff as soon as any space is cleared.

It requires medication, an experienced practitioner, and a willing patient to conquer this. Usually what happens is the hoarders house gets cleaned out, either by family or under legal threat. But over time the problem returns, unless they are willing to cooperate with intensive treatment.

Also - re: codependency. Not everyone who is kind or even a rescuer is automatically codependent. Being manipulated by an experienced manipulator doesn’t automatically make someone codependent. Andrew might have codependency issues, or he might not.

[bttrfly]

Also - re: codependency. Not everyone who is kind or even a rescuer is automatically codependent. Being manipulated by an experienced manipulator doesn’t automatically make someone codependent. Andrew might have codependency issues, or he might not.

true dat. my suggestion of attending some zoom CODA meetings was so that Andrew could determine for himself if anything there resonated or was helpful. He clearly needs some help. Whether or not he wants it is not so clear.

[Ginger1]

I agree.

People
Can change.

If they want to.

If they see there is something they need or should change.

Otherwise, it isn’t going to happen.

And how long should we sacrifice ourselves hoping that change will happen?

[devvo]

Andrew, you could indeed continue with this relationship but you'd have to address the fact you have many other choices of life partner. Yes - it's most definitely possible to keep a relationship alive through difficulties provided there is an underlying level of respect for that person. I've said it before though - I don't think you respect S anywhere near enough to last the distance.

That was my original point about who pays for this. It looks like you are paying now with having to find a way to process thoughts and feelings related to unmet needs. Unfortunately though, without serious work from her end S will only continue to accumulate a long-term relationship debt that she will pay with more lost respect and belief in her suitability as a long-term partner. The fact there's no 'sunk cost' to speak of means you're in the position of truly being free to make a decision based on your needs, wants and beliefs. There is nothing really holding you back.

It's not being judgemental to dispassionately assess a potential life partner to determine whether you mesh. It's not a blame game or a way of picking a person apart - it's working out whether your shortcomings and foibles are able to work with theirs. Pretzeling yourself to deal with another person's issues is a short to medium-term solution. I think everybody in this forum understands that!

I agree with kml - I think S has undiagnosed mental health issues that will be very difficult to treat. If your best friend were offered the choice of a life partner with likely unresolvable issues, or to keep on looking for a more suitable partner, which would you counsel them to take? Be your own best friend Andrew. You deserve it.

[Dawn70]

I'm definitely in the minority with my opinion that people do NOT change. Now, people change hairstyles, weight, manner of dress and can even change their attitudes, thoughts and opinions over time. But, I just don't think people change who they inherently ARE. I mean, I suppose, as G pointed out, that if someone really wanted to change, they could, but it would take a lot of work and effort on their part, likely. Things like being an alcoholic who stops drinking or being an addict who stops using comes to mind when I think of people working to make an actual change. I think who we are is who we are, though, in general. I think S is a hoarder and whether that is part of a larger mental issue or is a product of who she was when she was younger and her sum of life experiences, only she knows that, and I'm not judging or belittling her for it, but I just don't think she'll ever change. You say that her C has been working with her on some issues. That is great she is seeking help, but if she is seeking help for these issues, it doesn't seem, at least by outward appearances, that the help is working.

I am clearly also in the minority on something else that I'm reading in these posts. I understand and appreciate the value of seeking counseling for a variety of issues and have done so more than once in my life for varying reasons, most recently a few years ago when going through my D and learning to get past all that. I think counseling is a good thing that can really benefit people in a wide variety of situations. Having said that, though, I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything? Again, you say she's been seeing this person already. This may just be me and I may be thinking incorrectly here, but if I were in your shoes and I was going to agree to counseling with her, I would want to choose a different counselor who didn't know either of us because I just don't think S is getting much out of the current one, particularly if they are friends. That just seems shady to me. But then again, maybe it is just me. I can be skeptical and even a tad conspiracy theorist, but I would worry that seeing S's current counselor whom she has a friendship with might sway the bias of the situation to S's viewpoint and somehow make you come out on the negative side of the deal. I may be way off, though, so that is really just my own thoughts and opinions. You can use it or toss it out like old trash as you see fit.

I think my biggest issue of late with the whole S thing is that she goes away to deal with her father's issues, then she comes back and makes little snippy comments about the house being clean, you being alone and enjoying the quiet and your beer. It is almost like she is trying to goad you into saying that you prefer her chaos to your solitude, as though she needs some reassurance. Old Andrew would've given her that assurance that he preferred her company so I think maybe you are making some strides in asserting yourself, albeit baby steps. Baby steps are still steps, right? For me, that attitude on her part just makes her come across as even more insecure and just not the right fit for you. I also keep going back to the intellectual differences. I could've sworn you mentioned in a post that she had gone to college and majored in English. Maybe I'm getting my wires crossed on people here, but I find it hard to believe that someone who majored in English, even if she didn't graduate, would be as so poorly read and aware of things as S seems to be. You were talking about how unfamiliar she is with Agatha Christie....that seems unusual for an English major. But, like I said, maybe I'm getting my people crossed and it is someone else who was an English major.

I hate to speak for the others here, but I’m pretty sure this is what many of us here really want for you. S and the rest of us finally agree.

There’s a lot more in there but perhaps others can tackle those items. I know this remains difficult but just like S expects everyone else to take care of things, you seem to expect someone else or something else to change them. It’s here that I think Devvo, myself and others think you really could benefit from some C - but only if you truly want to change how you deal with S and others. Otherwise your quite of S seems to scream sense to me. Im willing to bet S would have much more respect for you if this were to happen. Her always getting her way slowly erodes that away.

Feel free to speak for me on this one, Don. In response to your own posting that S probably wishes you would "grow a pair" and end it, Andrew, above was what Don said and I couldn't agree more. I hate to see how S leads you around by the nose and makes all the decisions and calls all the shots and you are usually very reluctant to rock the boat. I, too, like Don and others, think that you might benefit from counseling. I'm not necessarily going all in on the whole co-dependency thing because I think it is more about S being a master user and manipulator who knows how to work her wiles to get what she wants and that is not a co-dependent thing. I am just not sure that you can benefit from couples counseling with S because I don't see where she has the impetus to actually change. She seems to be quite masterful at saying just the right thing at just the right time and then failing to follow through. Remember, Andrew, ACTIONS speak far louder than words. Pay attention to what she does because that is where her true intent lies.

[LH19]

Dawn,

Do you see the irony in your posts? You start off by saying that people don’t inherently change but you expect Andy P to change. He came to the board with NGS and he still has NGS. Nothing’s changed and nothing likely will because change is hard. Everyone’s posts to him is a waste of time.