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Originally Posted by may22
Hi Tom,
Steve gives good advice about how to distinguish boundaries from controlling behavior. You control you. That's it. But you can remove yourself from a situation where your boundaries are being crossed and you're being hurt. You don't need to say anything to enforce a boundary ahead of time. You just do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Your boundaries are going to be YOUR boundaries and they might be different from anyone else's, but that is for you to decide. I don't think anyone here should tell you what your boundaries should be.

What do you need for your own healing and progress? If a cold text message from her makes you weep and spin, then let her know you'd like to communicate exclusively by email and stop responding to her texts until she stops texting you, or block her. Figure out what you need and then protect that space for yourself.

This is really helpful, May22, thank you.

OK. Assuming that the boundaries I'm working on are only the ones with my STBXW, here is my first crack at them.

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.

Originally Posted by may22

With your friends-- if I were you I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You may be reading things into their responses that aren't meant that way. People sometimes feel uncomfortable about D and they may just not know what to say to you right now, not that they have heard anything from your W about you. Reach out when you're ready.

This is very good advice and I will do my best to not make judgments without direct evidence that someone has decided to turn against me.

Originally Posted by may22

Are you in IC? I spent a good amount of time with my IC defining my own boundaries for my own healing and emotional safety, and then working on enforcing them.

Yes, I've been in counseling since 3 weeks after D-Day. It has done wonders. We have not discussed boundaries yet but now that y'all are driving me that way, I will bring it up on Thursday.

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Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I didn't care if the kids were at my house Thanksgiving Thursday or Friday. As long as I was able to spend the day with them and that we alternated days each year. They were at my house on Thursday every other year.

Now that my kids are all out of the house, D19 asked about thanksgiving. I said I am fine following the same schedule as the divorce agreement to avoid consternation (one of those great words I learned from my lawyer) with her mother.

One exception to the alternating was the kids always had Christmas day with me and Christmas eve with their mother. (This was Moms request so they could go to mass on Xmas eve, and I decided this was a fine arrangement as well).

Originally Posted by may22

With your kids-- I agree with Steve to be as flexible as you can to support them. It is hard enough to deal with competing in-laws for holidays and I'm sure having freshly Ded parents adds a whole extra layer of difficulty to the mix, and they will be having a hard enough time dealing with it on their own. Have you talked with each of them about what they are thinking for the holidays? It may be best to understand where they are and what plans they've already made or are thinking of making, what their other obligations might be, before proposing something to your W (should you decide that is the best route to go). Note that if she's been the primary communicator with them about plans like this when you were M it may feel strange for you to jump into that role, but if I were you I'd far rather be active in the plans than wait for them to be made for you. Which very well might happen if you wait too long.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.

Thanks to all of you for your holiday comments. This will be one of my easiest to handle!

Last year my STBXW colluded with my eldest daughter, who more or less sided with her mom, and got the three of them to spend Christmas Eve AND Christmas Day with her. It was incredibly hurtful. My kids were gone from 3 PM on 12/24 until noon on 12/26. It was a quiet and lonely house on Christmas Day. The pain was still so incredibly raw, and I was still on the receiving end of every salvo.

A year has passed and I am now ever so much stronger. And my kids are being fair this time. The ex gets them for Thanksgiving and I get them for Christmas. And I didn't have to lobby for it, they made the fair decision themselves.

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May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.

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Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.

4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.



Here are ways to enforce:

(1/3/4)
W:"We need to meet to discuss bla bla bla"
H:"I believe it is best that we communicate via Email and Texting for simple items."
W:"Bla bla bla bla..."
H:Text"I sent you and email"

2)It is fine to postpone so you have time to process and make decisions.

W:"I sent you an email"
H"I received your proposal. I will review it and let you know what I decide"
W:"I need you to go faster"
H:"I am still reviewing."


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by tom_h
May22, does this sound like a good start for boundaries?

Hi Tom,
I'm by no means the boundary expert, but let me give it a go.

Originally Posted by tom_h
1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

OK... so your boundary is that you don't want to see her in person, or you are OK seeing her in person if there are others around? This kind of meshes with #3 as well... and then if you also aren't working things out in writing (#2) and only texting on trivial matters (#4)... how are you imagining you will communicate with her? It seems to me that you simply don't want to see or communicate with her, really, period. Am I reading that right? I think that is a fine boundary. A lot of people find going NC is really helpful for healing and detachment.

If that is really your primary boundary-- that conversing with her in person, on the phone, on Facetime, etc. is painful for you and you are trying to avoid it-- then I might focus on how you can avoid talking with her through any medium as much as possible. There are a lot of strategies discussed here to maintain NC, how to respond to certain types of communication and which types need no response. She'll learn.

I can't recall exactly where you are in the D process and what really needs to be dealt with right now vs. can wait. Do you know what you need out of the D process? Can you talk with your L about how he/she recommends you move forward, with you trying to minimize contact with her? Are there discussions that need to take place by a certain time? How can you structure the interactions that need to happen to protect yourself as much as possible?

Originally Posted by tom_h
2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

So this feels more like a tactic than a boundary. I think it is okay to set this as a tactic, I just wouldn't call it a boundary. (Also wondering what that means for how you might actually get things settled-- you want to do it all through your attorneys, is that right?) Does this also mean you don't want to correspond with her via email at all?

Originally Posted by tom_h
3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.
OK. Easy. Don't call her, don't pick up the phone when she does. If she leaves you a VM you can decide whether or not to listen to it.

Originally Posted by tom_h
4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.
OK. So, if there are topics you are okay texting with her about, maybe you can figure out what those are and interact with her via text as necessary to work them out. A lot of people prefer email over texting, though, because reading them and knowing they arrived is much more under your control (you decide to check your email) rather than getting an alert on your phone, maybe jarring you out of a good space.

RTC has good suggestions for how to enforce. Let us know how it all goes.


Me (46) H (42)
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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
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Originally Posted by LH19
Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

Roger that. I sure hope my ex isn't already here on DB, too.

However, if she had been, you all would have convinced her that our marriage was recoverable. Because I'm finished with Michele's DR book, and my ex and I sound just like one of the example couples Michele writes about.

But ... her attorney has scheduled a deposition in a couple weeks. It is mandatory, I cannot miss it. She will be there. I will have to answer questions for several hours trying to keep a straight face. It will not be easy.

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T,

Your W wouldn’t be on this site because she doesn’t want to fix the marriage. There is nothing we or anybody can do to change her mind. I suggest you really dig down deep and look at your role in this so this does not happen to you again in the future.

Onward and upward.

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Originally Posted by tom_h
Originally Posted by LH19
Yo T. Please do not tell your W you can’t meet in person because you might weep.

Roger that. I sure hope my ex isn't already here on DB, too.

However, if she had been, you all would have convinced her that our marriage was recoverable. Because I'm finished with Michele's DR book, and my ex and I sound just like one of the example couples Michele writes about.

But ... her attorney has scheduled a deposition in a couple weeks. It is mandatory, I cannot miss it. She will be there. I will have to answer questions for several hours trying to keep a straight face. It will not be easy.


I think my W did find this site. I am almost positive she's been here. There is nothing you can do about that. Maybe you should change your screen name to something more obfuscated?


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Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
1) No one-on-one meetings. First, because I might weep and this, for me at least, is not what I want to do. Showing vulnerability and pain is not the way to go according to DB principles; also, I showed her massive amounts of both during the first 90 days after BD, and she was not moved at the time. Finally, there is the matter of her (false) accusation of violence toward her. If I am ever alone with her, without witnesses, she might well claim I threatened her and succeed in getting that restraining order.

OK... so your boundary is that you don't want to see her in person, or you are OK seeing her in person if there are others around? This kind of meshes with #3 as well... and then if you also aren't working things out in writing (#2) and only texting on trivial matters (#4)... how are you imagining you will communicate with her? It seems to me that you simply don't want to see or communicate with her, really, period. Am I reading that right? I think that is a fine boundary. A lot of people find going NC is really helpful for healing and detachment.

If that is really your primary boundary-- that conversing with her in person, on the phone, on Facetime, etc. is painful for you and you are trying to avoid it-- then I might focus on how you can avoid talking with her through any medium as much as possible. There are a lot of strategies discussed here to maintain NC, how to respond to certain types of communication and which types need no response. She'll learn.

I can't recall exactly where you are in the D process and what really needs to be dealt with right now vs. can wait. Do you know what you need out of the D process? Can you talk with your L about how he/she recommends you move forward, with you trying to minimize contact with her? Are there discussions that need to take place by a certain time? How can you structure the interactions that need to happen to protect yourself as much as possible?

For now, I don't want to see her in person. Even with others. There are multiple reasons, but I am not sure I could get through it without weeping.

We saw each other two times after D-Day/BD. Then she and her attorney devised their little strategy and went nuclear on me; I didn't have an attorney yet and they thought I would buckle. But I rebounded and got good advice, and their gambit failed. She knows that poisoned the well. That's on her.

I saw her once since then. Through her attorney she asked to pick up some clothes, and we arranged a date and time. She brought two witnesses, I had one. Talk about the dumbest, stupidest situation ever. We had a good marriage (at least I thought so), never a smidgen of anger or fearful behavior, and a strong family, and now we have to have freaking witnesses to do something simple like pick up clothing. Sheesh.

I have not seen her since. She has her own place (I am not supposed to know where it is, so she can maintain the farce that she is in "fear" of me). It is close by but probaby in a neighboring town. I expect she is grocery shopping at places I will never frequent and doesn't even go to the same Starbucks and Target anymore because she doesn't want to bump into me.

We are 13 months into the divorce and about halfway through administratively, although the pace could be picked up and it could be finished in early spring. My attorney is actually OK with direct contact, as she is not the type who is trying to ratchet up her billings. In fact, I did send an email this weekend at my attorney's request. But it was all business.

As for protecting myself, I have accomplished that by just not answering, since maybe February this year. She had begun sending little easy messages like "when do you want to list the house?" and "can I come by to pick up some clothes?" I said it earlier, perhaps it was petulant of me, but I never answered. You see, I wrote HER extensively during the first 90 days and she never said a peep. Nothing. Yes, I was baring my soul (I didn't know about DB yet) and not talking to her was torture, yet she refused. She walked out thinking she had all the power and all the control. She wanted a quick divorce so she could run with her share of the assets and home equity. So by me delaying, and slowing things down, I was at least able to win that battle for now. Now I have some control.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
2) No working things out in writing, at least for now. Sorry, this boundary is not so much a matter of pain but one of trying, finally, to get some level of control of the settlement process.

So this feels more like a tactic than a boundary. I think it is okay to set this as a tactic, I just wouldn't call it a boundary. (Also wondering what that means for how you might actually get things settled-- you want to do it all through your attorneys, is that right?) Does this also mean you don't want to correspond with her via email at all?

Yes I corresponded with her recently, but pure business. About healthcare coverage because this is enrollment month.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
3) No verbal discussions. I am still pretty wounded. That means not over the phone and certainly no facetime.
OK. Easy. Don't call her, don't pick up the phone when she does. If she leaves you a VM you can decide whether or not to listen to it.

It's interesting, she sent me a text a few months back that was a photo of her. It didn't begin with "Tom ..." but said something like, "look at this outfit!" I replied, "[STBXW], I don't think you meant this for me" and she said, "you're right." But making a blunder like that, even an innocent one, is not her style. I think it was deliberate. I think she was testing me to see if I would jump at the chance to communicate with her.

Had it been between September and January, I would have. But by May of this year, that urge had passed.

As for why she would want to communicate with me, it's possible she wanted to declare a truce and work this out together without lawyers. I might do that. But we're adults, we don't need to beat around the bush about important things. She started this all, if she wants to start rolling up her sleeves she can ask me directly. She knows I'm a technical man and don't appreciate little hints; approach me directly.

Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by tom_h
4) Texting to coordinate the trivial is fine. When it come to the children, they are all adults and I will let them be the interface.
OK. So, if there are topics you are okay texting with her about, maybe you can figure out what those are and interact with her via text as necessary to work them out. A lot of people prefer email over texting, though, because reading them and knowing they arrived is much more under your control (you decide to check your email) rather than getting an alert on your phone, maybe jarring you out of a good space.

RTC has good suggestions for how to enforce. Let us know how it all goes.

I think I explained it all above. I don't want to discuss the R at all. I am not ready to grieve the marriage with her, like a lot of former couples do. I will not be able to hold back. I guess that means I haven't fully grieved the marriage myself. Others here on DB have said it's time to let go but I'm not wired that way. Like swans, I mated for life. I will marry again, of that I am certain, and the pain is not as searing as it was, but it's still there.

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