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A Message from Michele
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Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905246
10/08/20 04:41 AM
10/08/20 04:41 AM
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Sage4 Offline
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May,

There is a person on the MLC forum called Grace who is in the process of reconciling with her MLC husband after many years and something she said in one of her posts stood out to me in your situation: Grace's H recently moved back home, but they made the commitment to each other to only talk about the hard stuff in MC for the time being. That they would do their best during the week to avoid those hard conversations until they had the safe space to do so with a third party.

I know that you are not feeling very positive about MC right now, but what if it gave you and H the space to put things in check until you had that hour to discuss it with MC? Maybe two sessions a week would be necessary, but perhaps it could be a tool for both of you to table things in the moment, knowing you had an opportunity to discuss it later?

A lot of the reactions you are having are knee-jerk ones. Ask me how I know.... wink Often when I have slept on the emotion/thought/reflection, the power dissipates and I recognize that I don't really need to express it after all. If you had the accountability of a regularly-scheduled MC appointment, it might help with some of the intense pendulum-swings you are experiencing in reaction to H's alien-nice-sad-alien-nice guy.

From an outsider's perspective, H seems to be trying to the best of his current capability. And of course, you are too. What would it look like to push the yardstick out a lot further so the positive (or negative) benchmarks weren't in terms of hours and days, but more like weeks or months? Can you see H's efforts since last month? Can you see your own progress since last month? I can. But sometimes we are so mired in the trees, we can't see the forest.

All of this you know, but sometimes we need another opinion to help us see our path.

(((May)))

xx
S

Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905300
10/08/20 08:53 PM
10/08/20 08:53 PM
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may22 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Yail
And, a gentle push here May. Your fighting him when he does share with you is invalidating him with actions. He shares, you are telling him he's wrong. So turning around and trying to validate verbally after I can see why he doesn't believe you on that. But you see the areas where you are reacting when you shouldn't be, and I applaud you for working on them. Keep going on this work.

You're right on this. I was having a hard time seeing it. I just am so emotionally triggered by the idea that he has (present day) feelings of love for another woman. I can *sort of* handle it when it feels like it was in the past, like when we kind of ritually threw away all the mementos together of the A. I think I mentioned she had written him 39 notes about ways she loved him for his 39th birthday. I glanced at each one and then threw it in the garbage and it was so weirdly satisfying. But I think I keep wanting him to tell me all his feelings are relegated to the past tense and she's completely in the rearview mirror in his heart. He can't tell me that, though, (I want to add "yet" but that is me trying to engineer what I want) and every time I bring it up and he can't say it, it totally triggers me and feels impossible to actually validate in any real way, because all my insides are screaming how wrong it is for him to have feelings for someone else.

I guess what I'm learning here is to avoid these conversations. I know it is a boundary for me but I keep picking at the edges hoping I'll have a different answer. I do think I can validate with authenticity-- even just the "I see" or "I understand" or nodding-- the past tense actions and feelings. I simply can't do that right now in the present tense. Anyway, this was helpful, Yail. Thank you.

Sage, I'd read some of Grace's thread a few months ago, when he was first starting to come around. I'll definitely check it out again now.

Originally Posted by Sage4
I know that you are not feeling very positive about MC right now, but what if it gave you and H the space to put things in check until you had that hour to discuss it with MC? Maybe two sessions a week would be necessary, but perhaps it could be a tool for both of you to table things in the moment, knowing you had an opportunity to discuss it later?

I do think this is a good idea. I want to give it a few weeks (maybe more) and see where we are-- I guess I also feel like we each have our own work to do and maybe it is better to give the relationship work a rest until we've each had some time to work on ourselves. (Well, I can work on me. H may or may not work on himself actively. But time and some breathing room from me yelling at him probably is only positive.) We do have kids back in in-person school so this would be a possibility again. I also appreciate your comment about the knee-jerk responses-- you're completely right.

It's funny. I was thinking recently about DBing and how my ability to DB has really ebbed and flowed. I was thinking about times last fall, when he was traveling for work and in AP's city, and lying about seeing her and I knew he was lying and furious about it. But, I was able to not react right away (thanks to this board) and after sleeping on it, recognized there was no value in confronting him about it and spurring an R talk so I just ignored it and him and focused on me. So many times I was almost frantic with anxiety and anger and worry about what he was doing or what was happening and I could just take a deep breath, focus on the kids or get out of the house to GAL on my own or with a friend and avoid doing or saying something I'd regret later. I was pretty good at it. I remember wanting to avoid R talks at all costs because I learned that every single time they happened it pushed him a little further away. I never heard anything I liked.

I don't know if it is COVID and the lack of other outlets or the fact that we're now in a bit of a different place that I feel compelled to dump my feelings on him in real time, say things without that filter, give in to the knee-jerk response when a year ago when it was so much worse and harder I had the self control to stop. I also see that I've done this every time in our R attempts, pushed my own hurt and feelings onto him when I truly think he isn't in a place to be able to handle that, yet. If we were S, I wouldn't be doing that and he'd be able to focus on his own healing and grieving without needing to be smacked in the face at every turn with my anger and grief at his behavior. I get that it would be a lot for anyone, processing your own feelings while also being forced to support the feelings of someone who you so very badly wronged. As Alison says, we aren't S, so I need to figure out how to allow for the same positive opportunities we'd have in S within the construct of us living in the same house. But these behaviors of mine, I think, were a cheeseless tunnel for me in the past, so I'm going to do my best to stop and take responsibility for my own emotions and healing for awhile.

Originally Posted by Sage4
From an outsider's perspective, H seems to be trying to the best of his current capability. And of course, you are too. What would it look like to push the yardstick out a lot further so the positive (or negative) benchmarks weren't in terms of hours and days, but more like weeks or months? Can you see H's efforts since last month? Can you see your own progress since last month? I can. But sometimes we are so mired in the trees, we can't see the forest.

He says he's doing his best and I think I believe him (even though I wish he could do better, but again that isn't mine to control). You said something a few posts ago that I've been thinking about, looking at your toddler's nutrition intake over a week instead of meal-by-meal, and this yardstick analogy also resonates with me. I do think I'm really impatient to be over this current pain of seeing him grieve and knowing he still has feelings for AP. But that is not going to change this week or next-- I think you're right, I should be looking more at months.

Yail helped me with this back in the spring, saying something similar when I started to get antsy and angry that H wasn't where I wanted him to be yet. I said to myself, I'll wait until July and see where we are then. But he relapsed before that and were back to full on limbo in June. I think I have some level of fear around that happening again. I think I need to wait until after the holidays to really check in and see where we are.

I don't know that I can see any progress from either of us, tbh. I feel I've backslid and only this week am starting to pick myself back up. He, too, went from "this is what I'm choosing and I'll prove it to you with my loving behaviors" back to IDK if I'll ever get over AP, some things are out of my control (like it was fate or kismet or a random bolt of lightning that caused him to "fall" in love). IC says just another way for him to avoid responsibility by framing it like this. A lot of stuff is going on under the surface for him, I think.

Thank you for saying that you see progress, though. That really helps. And I do honestly feel so much better and lighter since the weekend when I resolved to get back to DB basics and focus all my energy back onto me.

xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D10
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6-7/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
8/20-present R attempt #2
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905501
10/11/20 10:28 PM
10/11/20 10:28 PM
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Just a quick journal note to say-- I had a situation yesterday when I wanted so badly to dump on him, again, for having the A and to temp check and see where he was with "getting over" AP. It wasn't anything he was doing, just us needing to make some decisions around renovating the MBR and all those feelings cropping back up inside me, angry that we are in this situation, angry that I can't feel good about the MBR reno as a symbol of our M getting repaired, as he says he thinks it should be. We just aren't there, in my mind.

But instead of venting out my emotions on him, I went outside, FINALLY did a short yoga practice after all these months of not being able to get myself to practice. Cuddled with my daughters and read a book for a bit, and the urge to vent went away. I think this is the first time in a long while that I've had such an overwhelming urge to spew and managed to circumvent it, so that feels good. (We did get in a stupid fight an hour or so later, and part of me wonders if my reaction there was partially fed by the deep well of anger I have towards him about the A, but baby steps, right?)

We are going with a more expensive contractor than I would have chosen for the renos if it were just up to me, but (a) it will be my house if we split and (b) he agreed that we could write the difference into the post-nup as an additional lump sum I'd get. He sure doesn't like to talk about the post-nup. He wants to spend more money because this is our bedroom, this is an investment for the rest of our lives, etc. Part of me says okay, that makes sense. Part of me does not. This has all been good motivation for me to move forward on getting it drafted, which I have.

My IC wants to know what it will take for me to start trusting him again, and/or whether I'll ever be able to trust him again. I have been thinking about this and decided-- why bother worrying about this right now? If he doesn't do the work he needs to do on himself and get over AP in his head/heart, then there is zero reason for me to worry about trying to trust him again. I don't want an H who holds a candle for another woman in the long run. I can just continue to work on my own emotions and processing them without jumping ahead into whether or not I care to try and trust him again. If/when he gets to that place where he's ready to piece-- OK, then, I am open to working on trust and all the rest. If he never gets there, then that is when I will need to make the hard decisions... but I don't want to get ahead of myself either.

CW, if you're reading... just do the next right thing, right? smile


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D10
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6-7/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
8/20-present R attempt #2
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905507
10/11/20 11:08 PM
10/11/20 11:08 PM
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Yail Offline
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May, I do think you're headed in the right direction. I say keep finding these ways to allow the emotions to pass by.

It's not that you are censoring yourself or not speaking your mind - think of it as waiting to speak when you are calm, centered, and can express yourself eloquently. That is almost never in the moment of high emotions. And I'm not saying to just go calm down and come back in and have those discussions either. What I'm saying is look at your future. Look at the time you have. Now spreeeeaaaaaddddd it out. You will have opportunity to say your piece - and in many instances you already have - so don't feel like it has to be immediate.

I think as much as you are angry with H, you are also angry there is not quick fix, that there is no check-list to get through before H is fully back and remorseful and you are also leaning towards him. This is going to take time and even in looking at your whole timeline - it's still very, very short. I know it doesn't feel like it because for you it is 24/7 every single minute of your life. But from an outsider, just know this is a blip in your life. No matter your future, it is a small bit of time and you will not be here forever.

So, just as a mental exercise, here's what I see. You are waiting for H to be "all in" before you are willing to be. That makes sense, I think it's how everyone would feel in your situation. It's a protection and pride thing. But let's change assumptions just to see where it goes. why do you think he has to be first? Why not you? Why can't you focus all of your energy on finding out how you can move forward to be "all in"? (Leaving him to his own internal work, of course. This is a silent exercise.).

I say this because I think it's akin to forgiveness. No matter your future, you have to work on the anger in your heart because it's driving you, and I want something else to drive you.

Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905517
10/12/20 01:53 AM
10/12/20 01:53 AM
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May - great to hear that you were able to get away and calm down and let that urge pass. I second what Yail said about waiting until you can speak eloquently. You will get a chance to express what you're feeling, and you owe it to yourself to wait until you can best express that in a way where it gets heard. I am sure it's hard to not go in on him, because you feel justified (rightfully so imo) and that he deserves it, but ultimately does that get you closer to your (general) goal? What outcome do you want from that?

I'm glad to hear about the post-nup progress. Does the reno of the MBR need to be some big emotional symbol?

My H can be really great at "avoidance chores," by getting really into doing X thoroughly instead of doing Y that I asked, and then not having time/energy to do Y and saying ah yeah but I did X (I think this is an ADHD thing). The MBR thing almost reads like that - he is putting a lot of emotion into it, instead of elsewhere, for whatever reason. I think your energy is best spent on you instead of figuring out his emotional landscape right now, but wanted to remark on that.

I also second what Yail is saying about finding out how you can move forward to be "all in" - I think this is your IC's question just restated in a different form; trusting him again seems tantamount to being all in, and vulnerable.

Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905567
10/12/20 05:10 PM
10/12/20 05:10 PM
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May, well done on managing your anger and not venting at H. I do like the bit from you earlier post about dumping all over H and realizing that he's not equipped to manage your emotions as well as his own. I think they do carry a burden of guilt, shame, fear, and perhaps H channeling his energies into a reno project is a way to counter-balance the negative energies he is dealing with. It also reminded me of something you wrote on my thread a few weeks ago:

Originally Posted by May22
If I put myself in his shoes, I could imagine feeling a lot of pain knowing how much pain he's already caused you and continues to by not snapping back into a passionate H... but conversely, I could also imagine the utter relief if I felt like my W was OK with where we were, taking it day by day, secure and confident in who she is and that this will all work out in the end.


I think it's natural to feel that anger inside, but the way you have handled it without spewing over H is brilliant. That's not to say he's off the hook, and getting away with it. But it sounds like you have identified a way to move yourself forward without needing to always loop back to the A and the past. That's progress! Of course it's to be expected that it might not always happen this way (that you can redirect your anger away from H). But being able to identify the triggers and take action to mitigate the impending explosion is fab!! x


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-Apr 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905600
10/12/20 09:11 PM
10/12/20 09:11 PM
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May,

I follow you and am rooting for this to work out between you. I try and think about what I can add that would be useful. Iím not sure at times. As you know, this all moves soooooo very slowly and just has to unfold naturally. All any of us can do is let up on control and focus on ourselves ó our patience, healing, etc etc. I see you trying to do that.

When I read your updates, I have the same thoughts. I want to try and share them and you can take it or leave it. We both know that our situations had some major differences. You see my H leaving our home as the last straw for you and the point of no return. Youíve said that many times. I now view my H having left as the only way we could turn things around. He had to go out there and let his A die a natural death and simultaneously come to realize what he had lost (our marriage, family and home). THIS devastation and rock bottom is what motivated his changes and genuine desire to work on himself. Then, after that, I considered taking him back.

And like you, I have also repeated myself in this many times. Apologies. I think we both have that in common :-) ... But Iím not just here to repeat the same song. Iím trying to help you understand where from my perspective I see youíre both at a standstill. (My very bias perspective I know!) Hís standstill is that he is still grieving the loss of OW and his fantasy life with her. He never went out into the world and experienced the natural problems that relationships have. Also, by admitting that his R with her could have failed, he then has to look at that it was a mistake. If he accepts it was a mistake, then he has to explore why. With that exploration comes the pain of learning what kind of troubled person make these choices. It is far easier to hold onto the idea that they could have had something special and continue to grieve the loss of her. I see those as interconnected. So what Iím saying is he is far from doing the self work you would need him to do in order to work on the M with you.

However, I think your standstill is of much greater importance. You are wavering between making decisions on what you can accept/need in a M with him and what you cannot. You donít know how to make those decisions because you see him as stuck. Here is the part you wonít like and (again from where I sit) I see as the biggest issue. You already have accepted him. You have all along. Your door has been wide open to him throughout this entire process. You drew up some boundaries ó not being friends in his fantasy D, ending contact with her, at times he slept in the basement, etc óbut the overarching theme has been you would always be there waiting no matter what. I know Iím an annoying broken record when I say this but, I firmly believe it; we teach others how to treat us. May (2by4, Iím even flinching, donít hate me) you have been teaching him for a long time that he can walk in/out/all over you, and you will still be there standing tall for your family. While this is what makes you amazing and strong, it also means he doesnít have to do anything to have you. So heís not.

The times you have pulled back (pursuer/distancer dynamic) are the times he has put in more effort. I know you get frustrated when people tell you to kick him to the curb, but I donít think they mean it to be cruel or upset you. I think they genuinely believe that he has to experience the loss of you and all that you carry to motivate any real change here. When I read your posts, I get the sense that you are waiting for something. As if in time ó weeks or months? ó he will close out on his feelings for OW and appreciate you for waiting? Whatís going to change and why? Iím not able to see how thatís going to happen. Because, again, from where Iím sitting, you have already accepted him back. You accepted him back before he closed out his desire for OW, before he did any work on himself, and mostly, before he learned your value. You were there all along, and almost stubbornly to prove you were the better one standing for your family. Iím afraid that also furthered his resentment. No one likes being the bad guy or reminded of it.

I think if there are any conditions for accepting someone back into a M, it should happen before you allow them back into your life. I donít think you can just wait around, hope it might happen and then stuff your feelings so you donít act out on them. You are a woman of very high value, May. That is maybe the only point in my post here that NO ONE here can argue. But sadly, your H cannot see that right now. I think you have a loooooot of teaching to do to undo the years of allowing him to believe otherwise.

Iím sorry. But Iím also not sorry because I canít see how this will change without some fire under your feet. I want better for you. Let him in your life, and your bed, after he has let go of his desire for OW, after he has worked through his problems and become a better man, and mostly, after he has learned and appreciated your high value.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905626
10/13/20 09:50 AM
10/13/20 09:50 AM
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may22 Offline OP
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SamCal, Pommy, Yail... thank you for the encouragement. It is hard. Actually I think it is kind of like they say when you're on a diet at first saying no to the appetizer makes you end up saying yes to dessert, because you feel like you've already denied yourself and run out of self-control? I think that is happening to me... I did so well all weekend, we did all this incredibly stressful stuff, moving everything out of the MBR and bathroom, deconstructing furniture in other rooms to make space for our bed, etc. H got frustrated a number of times and I just let it go.... and then today he said something snarky to me and I completely went off the rails.

I think I was triggered from a number of things that happened earlier in the day--I saw a mole on his back, and remembered when he was traveling a year or so ago to AP's city after he had a mole removed on his back. We were trying to get the bandage all done perfectly since he wasn't going to be able to change it for the five days of his trip... and it occurred to me, oh right. There *was* someone there to change his GD bandage. Stuff like that. Ugh. When do you ever stop thinking about that kind of thing? It just makes me so angry.

So those little things build up, I work on processing them on my own, but then I just can't handle it when he acts like a jerk. Not even alien jerk, just regular jerk... and then I start thinking OMG is this what I have signed up for??? The rest of my life with this POS?

Originally Posted by Yail
I think as much as you are angry with H, you are also angry there is not quick fix, that there is no check-list to get through before H is fully back and remorseful and you are also leaning towards him. This is going to take time and even in looking at your whole timeline - it's still very, very short.

Yes, I think you really hit this one. I *am* angry about this part too. Also, that so much of me feels like he should be the penitent, reformed H that I feel like I should have kicked out and waited to see return, if ever did. The ones you read about in the affair recovery books who are patient with their LBS's outbursts because they know they are responsible for them and shower them with love and affection to prove their commitment all day long. That is what I want. I don't have that and I knowingly accepted less.

But it still all feels unfair to me. I didn't deserve to get cheated on and lied to. I've been dealing with this -- knowing at least about AP's existence, even though for a long time I thought it was only a minor EA-- for more than a year now. The ILYB speech was more than a year and a half ago. A big part of me right now just wants this to be over, to fast-forward to the end where my life is back to normal-- whatever that ends up looking like.

Originally Posted by Yail
I know it doesn't feel like it because for you it is 24/7 every single minute of your life. But from an outsider, just know this is a blip in your life. No matter your future, it is a small bit of time and you will not be here forever.

So, just as a mental exercise, here's what I see. You are waiting for H to be "all in" before you are willing to be. That makes sense, I think it's how everyone would feel in your situation. It's a protection and pride thing. But let's change assumptions just to see where it goes. why do you think he has to be first? Why not you? Why can't you focus all of your energy on finding out how you can move forward to be "all in"? (Leaving him to his own internal work, of course. This is a silent exercise.).

I say this because I think it's akin to forgiveness. No matter your future, you have to work on the anger in your heart because it's driving you, and I want something else to drive you.

I've been thinking about this, a lot. It has really struck a chord with me.I think the biggest reason why I don't want to go all in first is that I did in the spring, and then got burned so badly. Also, now that I have all my questions answered and I know so much more about their relationship... it hurts, more than it did before. And honestly, there is a strong contingent of folks here-- the majority, really-- who do think I should have kicked him out. People who I respect and care about-- Blu, Alison, Scout--and... I don't know. Maybe I feel like I can hedge my bets a little and straddle both paths by waiting to see what happens on his end without putting the kids through a S unless it is absolutely necessary? Kristin's update affected me a lot too-- made me think it is just a matter of time before my H relapses again too, so why invest in our R when I can just invest in myself, right now.

I do like the forgiveness part, though. And I do so very much want to stop hurting and stop thinking about the A and AP-- for MYSELF, not for my M. This feeling is actually very new to me. I wanted to preserve the hurt and anger to use it to jettison me forward if we split up. Now, I'm simply feeling tired of feeling like this, no matter how justified it is.

Part of me feels like I should move over to the MLC board so I can grow up to be like the enlightened souls you see over there. (And, assuming I stick to this path, there is probably more support on that board for my choices than there is here.) I feel like I do want that peace in my heart regardless of what happens with my M. I'm finally starting to see that I could get that peace even without getting to M2.0.

Originally Posted by SamCal
I'm glad to hear about the post-nup progress. Does the reno of the MBR need to be some big emotional symbol?

My H can be really great at "avoidance chores," by getting really into doing X thoroughly instead of doing Y that I asked, and then not having time/energy to do Y and saying ah yeah but I did X (I think this is an ADHD thing). The MBR thing almost reads like that - he is putting a lot of emotion into it, instead of elsewhere, for whatever reason. I think your energy is best spent on you instead of figuring out his emotional landscape right now, but wanted to remark on that.

I do think that H has had some manic responses, needing to throw himself into something-- I actually think our trip was one of those things. Right after this round of R started he wanted to buy a camper van (which makes very little sense where we live) and then went on this dizzying research spell about it. I was in a pretty weird place, because I really felt like go ahead, spend your money if you want because if we split it is none of my business, but if we didn't split I thought it was a pretty ridiculous purchase. So I told him, go ahead, but we're writing it into the post nup that it comes out of your $$. But he said if we were going to split then he shouldn't buy a big camper van... it was all very circular and clearly a distraction. I do think this MBR reno is a little along those lines. But hey, I like it a lot better than a camper van wink

Pommy... feeding my words back to me... nice one. Hahaha. (though your H emotionally is far closer to you than mine is to me, I think.) But yes, you're right. I need to chill. Like you three are all saying.

BTW, Pommy, I put my rings back on. No big ceremony but realized I really didn't want them sitting in my dresser with workmen coming in and out of the house all day. So I put them on and told him that was why, he said ok, got it, I understand that the only reason you're putting them on is so they don't get stolen. I said, well, that is part of it, but not all of it, and said no more. So I've been wearing my rings now again for the last 24 hours. Maybe this is part of why I snapped at him, IDK.

Blu... thank you as always for your thoughtfulness and honesty. I read your post earlier today and I've been chewing on it, together with Yail's advice. Up until I got super angry with H tonight I was thinking, you know, S is just off the table right now, where we are. There is no good reason for me to take that step today. Maybe down the line. And then I thought, what would cause me to decide ok, enough is enough? And a part of me said well, I can just wait this out for another ten years, and when D8 leaves home for college I'll leave him then. Is that crazy? But it has been in my head.

And then I got so angry with him and thought enough is enough. I don't think it will happen today or tomorrow. But I know it is a possibility, for me, in a way I never really did before. I'm trying not to repeat to myself that mantra of it being over if we split, or I'm failing my kids, or whatever. Focusing on one day at a time (when I can) is helping me here. So maybe I won't be able to do it today, but I'm mulling it. It isn't a path that is closed to me, anymore. That is pretty big progress, for me.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Hís standstill is that he is still grieving the loss of OW and his fantasy life with her. He never went out into the world and experienced the natural problems that relationships have. Also, by admitting that his R with her could have failed, he then has to look at that it was a mistake. If he accepts it was a mistake, then he has to explore why. With that exploration comes the pain of learning what kind of troubled person make these choices. It is far easier to hold onto the idea that they could have had something special and continue to grieve the loss of her. I see those as interconnected. So what Iím saying is he is far from doing the self work you would need him to do in order to work on the M with you.

I think you are right on in this assessment. I will say, though, that he sees this himself too-- he's talked about this very conundrum with me. That for him to admit that the R with her wouldn't have worked out or their love wasn't real meant he made a mistake, a huge and horrifying mistake that he spent two years doing, and in order to facilitate it he became a liar (hard for someone who was a total "I cut down the apple tree" dude who couldn't even tell white lies). And he also has said he can't really bear to contemplate what it means that he did this to me for nothing, for a mistake, and that he doesn't know how he can ever forgive himself for that.

So he's built a whole house of cards based on the reality and truth of his feelings for AP that will all come crashing down if/when he admits it was all a fantasy. He says he is working on all of this with his IC. Maybe. But, I do think there is something to the fact that he at least sees this and can articulate it. He has also said that he realizes his fantasy life where we're all BFFs was indeed a fantasy and wasn't on offer from her, either-- he'd been blaming that one on me previously-- and that in the end, when it came time to actually make the leap and commit to trying out a real R with her, he couldn't do it. It wasn't worth it.

None of that to say he isn't still stuck, or will ever get unstuck. And I find his reasoning flawed-- to me, it doesn't matter how he feels about her, or if it could have worked out or not-- nothing justifies what he did. Nothing. To me, he would still need to work out all that same stuff about himself and his "ego-driven" (my IC's term) actions regardless of where we all end up. But, I also see that if you've done something that wrong, it has got to be incredibly difficult to accept it, for anyone.

I'm OK with these 2x4s, Blu. I think you're right, tbh. I have already accepted him and I have never really wavered, to him, at least, in my intention to stand for our M. I remember thinking it when I first started posting here, that I had made it so crystal clear to him how I felt about breaking up the family that he would never, ever believe that I would walk. You're also right that there is a certain stubbornness and maybe trying to show him up by standing.

phew. I'm tired and need to think on all of this more. At least coming here and posting got me back to being philosophical about all of this and I'm no longer spitting mad.

xoxo thanks, you guys. M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D10
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6-7/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
8/20-present R attempt #2
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905655
10/13/20 03:40 PM
10/13/20 03:40 PM
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Posts: 1,147
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BluWave Offline
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BluWave  Offline
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Posts: 1,147
May, what if you did decide to stay put for 10 years, until both girls are moved out? Some people really do stay in the home together for the kids, family and home unit. I donít think we can really judge that choice if it works for people. I know people that have done this ó they have an unspoken agreement and there was no expectation of affection, romance or fidelity. In fact my childhood BFF parents are still together and are in their 70s. They have a nice companionship. They share so much in common. We believe they both had affairs but it was never discussed between them. Her mom has shared that with her in her adulthood. So I donít think these arrangements are unheard of if the goal is to raise children in a home together. I do think both partners have to drop their expectations for romance/fidelity to zero. I know myself and I couldnít do that and wouldnít want that. But it might be something to consider. If anything for the first couple years. Because when you eliminate expectations, you also free yourself of the disappointments that follow.

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 10/13/20 03:42 PM.

ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
Re: A day at a time [Re: may22] #2905660
10/13/20 04:09 PM
10/13/20 04:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 193
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KristinG Offline
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KristinG  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2019
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May,

Glad to see that you are looking at things from a more philosophical point of view instead of angry. We get into these anger spins and sometimes it clouds our thoughts. I am so sorry you and H still feel stuck. I know I'm tired of feeling that way. I am starting to see WW with less rose colored glasses and can see the manipulation and chaos going on in her world. One big difference in our situations is that your H is actually choosing to go to IC and at least attempting to work through his baggage. Now that's not to say that we should have taken them back at the drop of a dime. I agree that things would probably have turned out differently should we have made them work for it. I don't know if it's the affair or previous life lessons, but there is something to be said about the one person that is supposed to have your back choosing someone else over you that just crushes our self worth. I think that is one major reason, at least for me, that I so easily stood without question. I just didn't feel like I could be the strong, "you've gotta prove to me" type. At some point, after the ws has walked all over us, it just seems to shift. You are strong May. You are one heck of a woman who has passion for her family and would love for it to stay in tact. BUT, you are also strong enough to say you deserve a partner in life that has your back. Even if it's not H. I hope he really does work through all of his chaos and feelings and wake up from this. ((May))


KG


LBW 32 - me
WW 31
T 7 M 4
No Kids
4 dogs

Separated 1y
Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
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