WAW w/Exit Affair or WW? - Don't Want Divorce (2)

[Drh2001]

Hey BL,

I'm behind on your sitch but wanted to chime in on recent events.

The VM from GIL is peculiar. I would think she's heard some awful things about you during this process and is trusting her family that all is true. Documenting this was helpful. It's awful and it does sound best to keep distance from her until some time passes. Especially while Ding to keep it low conflict. Sorry you are losing not just W but the in laws that you've bonded with.

With how much your W was in to "Mr Perfect", its shocking there could be OM2 but I'm not surprised after reading the boards. OM2 may be someone she's lining up to take OM1s place if it dont work out. After all, how can she trust a cheater. Being around your kids is another thing. What Ovr mentioned comes to mind....you control what you can. In the divorce you can mention you dont want the kids introduced to a new person for a set amount of time however my understanding is no one enforces it. I feel your pain on this one. What you can do is work on yourself. You're likely clouded with feelings about his character. I would be too. As an outsider, he sounds to me like an already divorced guys guy, not looking for commitment. Gosh, I may be a guy living at my dads, going to strip clubs after this dry spell.

No one will replace you as dad unless you let them. You'll always be dad to the kids. I equally am disgusted at the thought of someone else raising my kids. Something that helped and hurt me is the likelihood of anyone sticking around for awhile is slim. I dont know whats worse, multiple step dads, or one that stays. Ideally none but thats where you come in...create stability for those kids.

Going through this now. OM has convinced WW who is IHS with me to transition quicker beginning November. She is already asking the kids about what beds they want and comforters.

We recently started mediation (over zoom) and will get a lawyer to file for us.

It's difficult to accept OM will be having my kids at weekends but I'll actually get a little more than 50%.

WW met OM in January and already decided to move in with him in April but she's waiting for the "equity" as she puts it - for me to buy her out.

Her behavior has been outrageous. I caught her having a one night stand last October, have all the proof and she still denies it.

[BL42]

It was an up and down week for me...

On the bright side I took the kids for ice cream with friends on Wednesday, coached S5's soccer practice on Thursday, took the kids to the pumpkin farm on Saturday and then to a State Park for hiking in the Fall foliage yesterday. I'm seeing and engaging with them as much as possible, and we're all really enjoying it. I love them so much and between me and my parents trying to give them all the love and stability we can.

Unfortunately the encounter with W's grandmother (not the encounter itself but the follow up days later) shook me a bit. All the phone calls and voicemail from her about how she should have called the police, and W's attorney wrote a letter threatening to charge me with trespassing...all because I show up a bit early to pick up D2 for my scheduled evening with the kids. I don't know if W's grandmother (84) is starting to have elderly issues or if this is purposefully malicious but I didn't do a single thing that could be construed as threatening. I just went to pick up my daughter. It's a shame there's such an escalation on W's side instead of being reasonable. I read on heard WWs aren't rational, but it's still hard to get my head around it.

Also the OM2 situation did get to me. I suppose I need to work harder on detaching. During the weeks is fine but on kids transition when I she her and then hear news like this, it shows I'm not 100%. I guess I feel into the trap of many LBSs that she fell hard for her co-worker/AP/OM1 who was in the right place at the right time and if/when that ended she might come out of the fog and see how good of a husband/father I am. Instead she's just turning to the next guy, so obviously it's not a one-off thing and she still sees me as the enemy. I've thought about this while contemplating dating on my own as well. W originally told me that she was broken down and needed to focus on herself and not be in any relationship right now - though she was lying because she was already had OM1 - which is the advice many people on this forum give. I wonder if she's jumping into these relationships to mask her own issues rather than working on herself, and by me holding off I'll be in a better place in the long run. Based on the guys involved it doesn't bode well for her long-term.

My L said W/W's attorney filed to have a judge assigned to the case which my attorney said it's not a big deal but a way to speed up the process, so again...W is pushing things along and not showing any signs of wavering or laziness you hear about from other WSs/WAWs on this board. I honestly think I'd be ok with the marriage end at this point if not for the kids involved, but who knows.

[BL42]

Last night I went over to my parents' house to string some outdoor lights I bought for their screened-in porch and my mother was crying. She's been hit very hard by my sitch, not just because her son is hurting but also she & W were extremely close (or at least we thought) for the first 8 years. As recently as December of last year they both took my son on a day trip to see a Disney show together and had a great time, but once BD hit she was completely cut out.

My mom is very emotional and having a harder time detaching than I am. Apparently she stopped by my W's former best friend's house (she was in our wedding) yesterday without my knowledge to talk and try to understand what happened. My W and her friend have not been in touch for close to 2 years now because my W informed her of her husband's infidelity and encouraged her to divorce him, yet she forgave him and they've been working on their relationship. Anyway, apparently my W has been bad-mouthing me behind my back to work colleagues for quite some time (years?) without my knowledge. Also bad mouthing my parents and sister, who have been NOTHING but warm and welcoming and generous to W since the day they met her. My wife's friend said she believes my mom those things were lies but that she's not surprised our marriage was ending based on what my W has said in the past (without saying it to me) and that W has had many issues (ADs, counseling) well before she met me. Her and her husband are glad W is out of their lives and said to stay away from W, W's mom, and W's grandmother (of course we can't do that completely as they can due to S5 and D2). Hearing these things brought out anger in me about my W - how could she say all of those things behind our backs? I supposed it gives me better understanding of her history, and helps validate/confirm it's not all me, but it's hard to understand how she could go 8 years with being nice and friendly to my family to our faces and then trash talk us to her colleagues. Can a person hide that long?!? It's hard to reconcile the person I knew to who I'm experiencing now and apparently what others have seen in the past. It also made me pity my W a bit because she's jumped into OM1 and now with OM2, neither of whom are men who are going to make her happy, if anyone can. I suspect in a year or two or more she's going to be just as unhappy either on her own or with another man who is not the father of her children.

Anyway, my mom has been caring for the kids a good bit and being S5's teacher (grandma school) on his virtual days, so he's been opening up to her. She shared he asked her to come to "mommy's house" to see his new fish and was so excited to show her, but she had to explain she couldn't because mommy moved away and doesn't want grandma coming over, and he teared up and cried and said "WHY, WHY?", and all my mom could say was she doesn't know and it's adult problems and we still love you very much.

So much pain and sadness for everyone involved in this whole situation...

[sandi2]

The existence of OM2 has made me question myself all over again - even when OM1 may be out of the picture she's still seeking out others and not me, and people who are drastically different.

It's not the other man #1 or #101. It is her fantasy that keeps her jumping from man to man. Of course she is not seeking you out, b/c she doesn't want that relationship. That's one reason a WW will usually have some OM that is nothing like her H. She wants to escape her old life.

Also the OM2 situation did get to me. I suppose I need to work harder on detaching. During the weeks is fine but on kids transition when I she her and then hear news like this, it shows I'm not 100%. I guess I feel into the trap of many LBSs that she fell hard for her co-worker/AP/OM1 who was in the right place at the right time and if/when that ended she might come out of the fog and see how good of a husband/father I am. Instead she's just turning to the next guy, so obviously it's not a one-off thing and she still sees me as the enemy. I've thought about this while contemplating dating on my own as well.

Look, this didn't happen b/c you've been a bad husband/father. That's one of the distinguishing features about a wayward W. She lost respect for you as a man. It's how she sees you. She carried around resentment toward you, and she blames you for her unhappiness. Whether or not she ever says those exact words......this is the foundation of waywardness. The mindset of a WW is not a pretty picture! In other words, the problem is her....not you. And now, she is acting out in rebellion, just like a teenager!

Don't compare yourself with OM. Don't hold your breath, hoping any day she'll snap out of her waywardness and see what a treasure you are. Something might happen to shake her senses, but recovering from a wayward mindset is a process. She can decide to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean her feelings for you will all be resolved and returned to normal the minute she ends her affair. This is what many newcomers don't grasp. She can recover, but it is tough b/c it requires hard work on her inner self. She has to work through all that garbage in her head/heart, before she can be the loving W you desire. Ending her affair and returning home is not an automatic cure, like some LBH's think. She doesn't just bounce back to her old self. It's necessary for her to take these steps (and more), but her problem is in her heart.


The fact that your WW has been talking behind your back is not surprising. I think a WW talks bad about the LBH, to try and justify her reason for leaving and getting involved with OM. If she can convince her relatives, friends, & co-workers that her H was a jerk, she thinks it will elevate herself in their eyes.

Unfortunately the encounter with W's grandmother (not the encounter itself but the follow up days later) shook me a bit. All the phone calls and voicemail from her about how she should have called the police, and W's attorney wrote a letter threatening to charge me with trespassing...all because I show up a bit early to pick up D2 for my scheduled evening with the kids. I don't know if W's grandmother (84) is starting to have elderly issues or if this is purposefully malicious but I didn't do a single thing that could be construed as threatening. I just went to pick up my daughter. It's a shame there's such an escalation on W's side instead of being reasonable. I read on heard WWs aren't rational, but it's still hard to get my head around it.

That sounds as if your W has influenced her GM that you can't be trusted. When they start threatening to call police and/or have the attorney send you threatening letters..........it's time to pull way back from your in-laws. I understand they are related to your children, and maybe GM babysits, IDK. But you are walking on dangerous grounds when you can't go there to pick up your kids, without having charges brought against you.

I hope your lawyer will fight for your rights as a father. It's okay to hear something isn't that big of a deal, but I would want to know how to proceed in picking up your children from the in-laws. Do you call ahead to let GM know you are on your way there, so she won't be taken off guard? There needs to be some solution, where you aren't at risk when you go to get your children.

P.S. The WW wants to escape to a new & better life (which usually includes another man). She doesn't want "to work" on herself. In fact, she doesn't want to "work" at anything, especially a relationship. She just wants to feel in love, without any effort whatsoever. Some WW's who leave the H will tell him that she's working on herself.........but it's a lie! Reality = work. Fantasy = play.

P.S. #2......As for the dating thing, I suggest you read Wolfman's updates.

((hugs))

[SteveLW]

Last night I went over to my parents' house to string some outdoor lights I bought for their screened-in porch and my mother was crying. She's been hit very hard by my sitch, not just because her son is hurting but also she & W were extremely close (or at least we thought) for the first 8 years. As recently as December of last year they both took my son on a day trip to see a Disney show together and had a great time, but once BD hit she was completely cut out.

My mom is very emotional and having a harder time detaching than I am. Apparently she stopped by my W's former best friend's house (she was in our wedding) yesterday without my knowledge to talk and try to understand what happened. My W and her friend have not been in touch for close to 2 years now because my W informed her of her husband's infidelity and encouraged her to divorce him, yet she forgave him and they've been working on their relationship. Anyway, apparently my W has been bad-mouthing me behind my back to work colleagues for quite some time (years?) without my knowledge. Also bad mouthing my parents and sister, who have been NOTHING but warm and welcoming and generous to W since the day they met her. My wife's friend said she believes my mom those things were lies but that she's not surprised our marriage was ending based on what my W has said in the past (without saying it to me) and that W has had many issues (ADs, counseling) well before she met me. Her and her husband are glad W is out of their lives and said to stay away from W, W's mom, and W's grandmother (of course we can't do that completely as they can due to S5 and D2). Hearing these things brought out anger in me about my W - how could she say all of those things behind our backs? I supposed it gives me better understanding of her history, and helps validate/confirm it's not all me, but it's hard to understand how she could go 8 years with being nice and friendly to my family to our faces and then trash talk us to her colleagues. Can a person hide that long?!? It's hard to reconcile the person I knew to who I'm experiencing now and apparently what others have seen in the past. It also made me pity my W a bit because she's jumped into OM1 and now with OM2, neither of whom are men who are going to make her happy, if anyone can. I suspect in a year or two or more she's going to be just as unhappy either on her own or with another man who is not the father of her children.

Anyway, my mom has been caring for the kids a good bit and being S5's teacher (grandma school) on his virtual days, so he's been opening up to her. She shared he asked her to come to "mommy's house" to see his new fish and was so excited to show her, but she had to explain she couldn't because mommy moved away and doesn't want grandma coming over, and he teared up and cried and said "WHY, WHY?", and all my mom could say was she doesn't know and it's adult problems and we still love you very much.

So much pain and sadness for everyone involved in this whole situation...

This is what was so amazing in the midst of my sitch. My WW's capacity to just throw relationships away like bad rubbish. She was oblivious to the pain she would be causing others. Like your W and mother, my W and mother have always been very close. Much closer than my W and her own mother! But in the midst of our sitch my W completely ignored my mom. My mom had just come off of a very rough patch health wise, and my WW was not there for her at all like she normally would have been. My mom never said anything about, and my W and I kept our troubles from everyone we knew. But I do wonder if my mom wondered why my W was not there for her at all.

This is why we try to tell people to not share your sitch with others. Now if your W ever decides to come back, she will have to reconcile with your mother too. Sometimes the peripheral relationships are harder to heal than the primary (MR) one. But in some sitches it is impossible to hide.

Keep focusing on you BL....it will get better no matter what.

[BL42]

sandi2,

It's not the other man #1 or #101. It is her fantasy that keeps her jumping from man to man. Of course she is not seeking you out, b/c she doesn't want that relationship. That's one reason a WW will usually have some OM that is nothing like her H. She wants to escape her old life.

Makes sense, and seems to apply here.

Look, this didn't happen b/c you've been a bad husband/father. That's one of the distinguishing features about a wayward W. She lost respect for you as a man. It's how she sees you. She carried around resentment toward you, and she blames you for her unhappiness. Whether or not she ever says those exact words......this is the foundation of waywardness. The mindset of a WW is not a pretty picture! In other words, the problem is her....not you. And now, she is acting out in rebellion, just like a teenager!

Thanks for saying that. I pride myself on being a fantastic father - I'm as present and involved with the kids as much or more than anyone out there - and though not perfect, a pretty decent husband as well. You're right about the loss of respect. However, what I'm struggling with the reason for that loss of respect. I understand it may not change the situation and "I may never know" but then how do I work on myself for the future if I can't identify the reasons/behaviors which caused it? When I think about it objectively I do believe the problem is her and not me, and I attribute a lot of it to her family background...she does seem to be acting in a rebellious teenage manner which is the timing of when her mom had an affair and divorced her dad, but is that lazy thinking...what should I do better in the future?

Don't compare yourself with OM. Don't hold your breath, hoping any day she'll snap out of her waywardness and see what a treasure you are. Something might happen to shake her senses, but recovering from a wayward mindset is a process. She can decide to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean her feelings for you will all be resolved and returned to normal the minute she ends her affair. This is what many newcomers don't grasp. She can recover, but it is tough b/c it requires hard work on her inner self. She has to work through all that garbage in her head/heart, before she can be the loving W you desire. Ending her affair and returning home is not an automatic cure, like some LBH's think. She doesn't just bounce back to her old self. It's necessary for her to take these steps (and more), but her problem is in her heart.

I too struggled with that initially. In the first few months I focused on AP/OM1 and how to get him out of the picture, whereas friends (and online resources) told me that wasn't the issue that another man would come along...and they were right. I don't believe she's one to look inward and really work on her issues right now. She seems to completely be blaming me for her unhappiness - not sure she's going to do the work needed.

The fact that your WW has been talking behind your back is not surprising. I think a WW talks bad about the LBH, to try and justify her reason for leaving and getting involved with OM. If she can convince her relatives, friends, & co-workers that her H was a jerk, she thinks it will elevate herself in their eyes.

Understood, but what surprised me was hearing about how far back it went...well before BD (years), without me knowing.

That sounds as if your W has influenced her GM that you can't be trusted. When they start threatening to call police and/or have the attorney send you threatening letters..........it's time to pull way back from your in-laws. I understand they are related to your children, and maybe GM babysits, IDK. But you are walking on dangerous grounds when you can't go there to pick up your kids, without having charges brought against you.

I hope your lawyer will fight for your rights as a father. It's okay to hear something isn't that big of a deal, but I would want to know how to proceed in picking up your children from the in-laws. Do you call ahead to let GM know you are on your way there, so she won't be taken off guard? There needs to be some solution, where you aren't at risk when you go to get your children.

Yes, I believe she was influenced by my W and more likely W's mom. I had another incident two weeks ago where I arranged timing with my W and when I showed up W's grandma wouldn't bring D2 out to me and I waited with an umbrella outside in the rain for 10-15mins and my W had to call her. Good news is my W talked to her since and hopefully tomorrow won't be an issue. If it happens a third time I'll need to get my L to take some action.

P.S. The WW wants to escape to a new & better life (which usually includes another man). She doesn't want "to work" on herself. In fact, she doesn't want to "work" at anything, especially a relationship. She just wants to feel in love, without any effort whatsoever. Some WW's who leave the H will tell him that she's working on herself.........but it's a lie! Reality = work. Fantasy = play.

Yes, you seemed to have hit the nail on the head. My wife told me she was at a zero, beaten down for 5 years and needed to work on herself and not be in a relationship...all the while in an affair with a married co-worker, and now supposedly on to the next man. I believe you're right that she doesn't want to work on and address her issues but rather "just be happy".

P.S. #2......As for the dating thing, I suggest you read Wolfman's updates.

I've been reading Wolfman's sitch, and I don't envy his position. I wouldn't rule out more kids IF I enter a wholesome healthy relationship someday, but never want to be put in the position of a shot gun wedding.

((hugs))

Thanks sandi. I'm sure you hear this a lot but reading your comment helped a great deal.

[BL42]

Steve85,

This is what was so amazing in the midst of my sitch. My WW's capacity to just throw relationships away like bad rubbish. She was oblivious to the pain she would be causing others. Like your W and mother, my W and mother have always been very close. Much closer than my W and her own mother! But in the midst of our sitch my W completely ignored my mom. My mom had just come off of a very rough patch health wise, and my WW was not there for her at all like she normally would have been. My mom never said anything about, and my W and I kept our troubles from everyone we knew. But I do wonder if my mom wondered why my W was not there for her at all.

Crazy. It's scary how easy it is for our Ws to throw away those close relationships. Maybe she does know the pain she's causing and she's just embarrassed to be around her because of it, or maybe she's oblivious to it, but her and my mom was extremely close for 8 years and is still helping S5 with his virtual Kindergarten 5 days a week (even on W's week) and W won't even say hello to her. Looking back on W's relationships with family and friends though she has had falling outs and cut people off in the past - I guess me and my family missed the red flags and were naive to think it wouldn't happen to us.

This is why we try to tell people to not share your sitch with others. Now if your W ever decides to come back, she will have to reconcile with your mother too. Sometimes the peripheral relationships are harder to heal than the primary (MR) one. But in some sitches it is impossible to hide.

For better or worse that ship has sailed. I told my parents and sister immediately after BD and they learned about the affair shortly thereafter right along with me, before finding this site. I leaned on them for support quite a bit and can't imagine doing those first few months without them. Not sure W is ever coming back - though I guess things can turn on a dime sometimes - and not sure if I could even take her back (at this point it would be mostly to do the right thing for the kids).

Keep focusing on you BL....it will get better no matter what.

Thanks Steve, I'm trying! It has gotten better over the months and I'm sure it'll continue to. I have certainly worked on me but my main focus has been the kids. They'll always be #1, but I may need to balance it out a bit and start the work out routine again. Because I'm virtually and have a flex schedule at work I've been bending over backwards to spend my mornings and afternoons (before and after school) and Fridays with them on my "off weeks" when my W has to be in work to maintain that daily interaction, but that does wear on me a bit - I need to be a little better about carving out more time for myself.

[ovrrnbw]

BL,

It's normal to want to analyze and understand a problem. I would not focus on it very much unless you are truly gaining some ground there. I would also make it a point to manage your body and emotions through this situation. Don't think about your sitch after 9 pm, don't drink socially if you are going to be upset and call her, etc. From a lot of info I've read and heard, exercise is the best way to stifle depression and be happy. Do it every day.

Want to know how to gain respect? Be a man of your word, set strong boundaries, work hard and do what's right. If you have ever seen R2C post his links to confidence, attraction, respect, etc those would be good to read every day. Don't focus on things you can't control and certainly don't let those things bother you. For example, don't worry that you told your parents. Getting help when you need it is smart bc you have to take care of yourself. Did it do what Steve said too? Yes, but you didn't do it for her so no biggie IMO.

So what now? Go back to your core, figure out who you really are and who you really want to be. Pour your heart into that. Be a dad, a man, explore new hobbies, and make the most of this time you have. The "Gift of Time" saying meant little to me when I first came here but now I do see it differently. There's a silver lining here, and there is so much wisdom telling you to turn this into a positive, if you indeed want to be happy. Take a step, then another. That's how big changes happen. It won't be comfortable. I remember Cadet ( I think) telling me that most people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same. It really shows us how at odds we are with ourselves and our goals. You have to use your higher mind to over come your basic desires. That's morality in a nutshell. If doing the right thing was easier and fun it all the time then it wouldn't be so significant. Be smart and make those changes, control your emotions and do the right thing. I wish you well.

[Mumin]

Great post ovr!
BL just yesterday I could, for the first time, really clearly see why my sitch happend.
To begin with M/R was a SSM since our first child and W is probably HD. That combined with me being NG and her not being good at talking about her feelings makes for a perfect case of building resentment and losing respect over the years.

It might take you a while but really do look to your core, your values and your behavior. Over time you will understand more and more.

"people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same."
Holy sh0t That's strong!
Also means my W will probably never change.

[Steve_]

Yeah man I hate to say it, only because I hope my W will change her mind but a friend of mine who has been a psychologist, therapist and mental health nurse practioner for 30 years told me today that

"I quit doing therapy because only around 10% of people change, you spend years on them and they go back to doing the same things over and over"

In a way that gives me a slight bit of hope since my W has essentially "left me" about 5 times and come back every time. But then again Ill have to play my cards perfect and not give her an easy recon this time even if she does come back. because that 10% of people that get remarried MWD said sounds a lot like that 10% of people that actually change so not a whole lot, don't need her WAW/WW attitude coming back the second I GAL and finally heal from this mess and I'll bet that is what will happen, always has. At least this time I can see my NGS and change myself! I hope that's enough to create happiness either way. But the point is that true lasting change only comes when people hit that rock-bottom soul shifting consequence of what they have done. I stopped drinking so much when I got a DUI, that's all it took for me, went from getting hammered every day to stuff issues down to having a beer like twice a month took 1 day to change my life and hard truth. This divorce will do the same thing.