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[kml]

I think she feels she is contributing "her share" with what she is putting in already.

Exactly how much is she putting in? And do you know how much credit card debt she has? (My guess, if she had all those fixed expenses on her income that she may have survived by running up large credit card debts. You ought to find out.)

As for the organizing/cleaning/hoarding stuff - she's not capable of getting the job done I don't think. Aside from relying on her D26 to come help, what else do you think you can bring to bear? She's obviously not keeping the dollhouse for her boys, so can D26 take it to her home? Or can it stay in the basement? Or would a cheap storage shed be a solution to put all her junk into and at least get it out of the house? I think she's going to have to learn to work with you to get some of this sorted because D26 doesn't have the time to come over every weekend. And at this rate it sounds like you're months away from her finishing, if ever. (And good lord, don't let her bring in more heirlooms from her father's place!)

I think you may have hit on an answer as to why she is attached to some of this stuff, but hoarding isn't really rational. It's frankly ridiculous that it would take this long to put things away - even given that combining households is a tough job and she is attached to stuff - so at this point I would be putting it in a shed and forgetting about it. Just get it out of your way. Once the house is uncluttered you'll feel better, and you'll also be able to have a better idea of whether she's able to maintain going forward.

If you've ever watched Hoarders on tv you know they are very difficult to treat.

And as for your budget - I hope you are putting a little "exit money" aside, so that if it gets to the point where you have to boot her out, you can pay the first month's rent on an apartment to get rid of her?

As for housecleaning - how about an agreement that "Saturday morning" is housecleaning day and EVERYBODY has to get involved and do their chores? Seems like relying on individuals/ chore chart alone isn't working so maybe it needs to be a group activity?

I'm sorry, Andrew.

[DnJ]

Hello Andrew

I was tempted to respond earlier but have found that I've been getting very reactive to posts and also that the issues and the re-enforcement of my own perspective of the negatives have been souring me.

I am sorry you feel under a cloud as of late. The reinforcing of negatives isn’t helping that cloud cover.

I've made some notes over the last few days though which I'll talk about. After job's post - which I really appreciated like everyone's including - brace yourself - Don's - I just wanted to go to S and say "this isn't working - we're trying to put a square peg into a round hold". I slept on it and didn't feel as motivated to take action.

Good for sleeping on it. Feeling do flit away when not reinforced. As you say, the next day, you didn’t feel as motivated.

Difficult as it is for me, I do think as has been suggested, is to just let things play out. For good or for ill. I do have reduced - not expectations, but rather hope - that this will turn around. It makes me feel very sad and rather hypocritical about not trying to "fix" things or be pro-active in calling for an end. I honestly in many ways don't want an end. I would like this to work but as I've said, I'm not going to force it.

One of the many questions has been “What do you want?”.

I honestly in many ways don't want an end. I would like this to work

Good.

You would like this to work out. I’ll support you.

You are correct you cannot force it. However, you need to live and love like this is going to work out. That is going to give you the best chance. Along the lines of self fulfilling destiny. If you live like things won’t work out, they usually won’t; and if you live like thing will work out, they usually will. MWD mentions something along those lines in her books.

Andrew, you lead in life more than you probably realize. Find your passion and fun with S again. The messy house and stuff still in boxes is just stuff. It’s a problem that is solvable. So solve it. Stop dwelling on it. Lead her and her kids, gently.

Things we focus upon get larger. The more you dwell on something troublesome the bigger and more insurmountable it becomes. It’s just stuff. Yes, lots of stuff; and I am sure you can see a solution or two on what to do with it.

Just letting thing play out, is going to fail. You are going to get more and more resentful. It is already taking its toll upon your hope; reducing it.

Andrew, your feelings are pushing and pulling you around. What do you believe? Deep down.

I get it. Work has been difficult. Son moved out. The cats are gone. The house isn’t where you want it to be, or expect it to be. Lots to accept, which takes time.

Be you. That guy who made yummy dinners, even used turnip - on purpose, yuck! Somehow made gray not from a package - I’m sure black magic is involved. Has duck at Christmas. Is kind, caring, responsible. Dresses up as a pirate at Halloween. And so on.

Be you. If S doesn’t follow such a fine example, or won’t step up, or decides to leave - it is truly her loss. You are a good man. Don’t forget that! (don’t let that go to your head either. Lol)

Have faith. And step into the light.

And dress up for Halloween. Arrrrrr.

D

[Dawn70]

Wow, DnJ…..that is the single greatest response I have ever seen on any of these posts. Seriously. It was perfect. I absolutely couldn't agree more with the entire thing and I couldn't have said it better. Read that VERY carefully, Andrew, and take it to heart, my friend.

[Westo]

Wow, DnJ…..that is the single greatest response I have ever seen on any of these posts. Seriously. It was perfect. I absolutely couldn't agree more with the entire thing and I couldn't have said it better. Read that VERY carefully, Andrew, and take it to heart, my friend.

I agree Dawn. That is one amazing post DnJ.

Sometimes the people here amaze me......

[kml]

Nice post by Dnj. I would add one caveat though.

Dating is for discovering whether we are a good match with someone. The same level of commitment to working something out that is appropriate for marriage, is NOT necessarily appropriate for dating. DBing has limited usefulness in a dating situation. It's great for working some kinks out of a relationship, but that should not be mistaken for total commitment to working things out no matter what, which is only really appropriate for marriage vows. (And not always then, in cases of addiction or abuse).

Andrew has to be careful not to succumb to the sunk cost fallacy here. He's invested an awful lot, what with having her and her kids move in already and having made a foolishly premature marriage proposal. And sure, it's appropriate to take a little time to see if this can work out. But if the reality turns out to be that she is incapable of living in anything other than chaos, will never work again and is unwilling even to do basic housekeeping such as putting food away after dinner and at least rinsing the dishes, or that she is in serious trouble with addiction to pain meds for her back problem for which she is unwilling to even take walks or do exercises to try to improve - well then. In that situation there's really unlikely to be a good outcome.

I understand his desire to see if it will work - and that's reasonable, he desired to help her improve her lot in life and it might be premature to say she's incapable of taking advantage of this opportunity. But so far the signs are not looking good. Some people don't want to be saved and are comfortable living in their chaos. Or if it turns out that addiction is the problem, addicts will use people to maintain their addiction. I think watchful waiting - observing the real person instead of the facade or image that she projected when they were first dating, and waiting to see if she can indeed step up to the plate - is reasonable. I agree with Dnj though that if you bring anger and irritability into the situation it won't help things.

[bttrfly]

Andrew, all I have to offer is this: {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

[AndrewP]

Happy Saturday all. A cool drizzly day here in Lower Upper Kanukistan. I'm planning on getting the storm windows up early this afternoon between the showers. S's S18 has been asked to research air purifiers as we will no longer be getting outside ventilation in his room for the rabbits. I'll need to stay on top of him about filter cleaning / changing.

I had a sort of nice call with D28 on Thursday. The call quality was crappy because of the poor cell reception as I drove home. She's under a lot of stress lately with a combination of world events and the fact that her H is leaving the Navy shortly. The recruiters are beating regularly on his door. With his qualifications he could work in a wide variety of places including any sort of steam plant which describes about 90% of the energy and chemical industry. She's confident that they will be moving out of San Diego and will certainly need to move somewhere because they are currently in base housing. The absolute latest date is the end of January to move but she expects it to be early November.

I talked to her about my own concerns with life and "stuff" and she was sympathetic and I think relieved that she doesn't have to figure out how to get up here for a fall wedding. She'd really like to be back on this side of the border though at present.

S came home late on Thursday after spending a couple of days with her daughter and GS. She was exhausted - bright red eyes - I gave her a big hug. We curled up to catch up. She shut me down abruptly when I was talking about my son-in-law's prospects. It seems that I've mentioned that before and am only able to talk about something once. She hates it when I repeat myself which as a story-teller I tend to do. I asked about her time and how her kids were doing which was a safer topic.

Friday she slept in until early afternoon which undoubtedly did her good then had to rush S13 over to his Dad's place and the out for a hair appointment. She also did the grocery shopping. I didn't know we needed so much convenience food or canned food and sauces and snack food. There was already lots in the pantry. Especially snack food. Just her style of shopping. I questioned it when she got home and she said that since it was the start of the month with a new grocery budget that it was time to stock up. Not the way that I personally view the grocery budget - but whatever. Very few base ingredients were bought. A small bit of fresh fruit, no vegetables or protein. A different way of shopping / cooking.

When I was talking to D26 she was horrified when I told her how much trash is produced out of here. Easily 100% more than there was with the former family of 4 that was here. Probably 300% more recycling because of all the packages and cans. I used to be so smugly proud of being able to put out one small bag and one partly full bin of recycling when it was my son and I here.

On Friday when S was out I did something I probably shouldn't have / should have and had a peek at her personal budget book. Superficially it's a confusing set of numbers written here and there but there is a system that works for S and she's explained it to me. I browsed back to when before her attempted reconciliation, during, the time up to when we started dating and up to the present. I'm a big believer that "following the money" is a good way to understand a situation.

Her reconciliation attempt was indeed half-hearted. Her expenses didn't change measurably as she kept the apartment and S18 - who would have been 16 was left there for several months on his own as he's mentioned in passing. There was an analysis sheet comparing the costs of one place vs two. After we had been dating for a while there was also a sheet looking at the costs of moving up to Ottawa to be closer to her daughter.

This plus numerous other pieces of evidence indicates to me that she strung her former partner along for years, never really letting go even though she was unhappy with him and the fact that they both were dating others. Strong echoes of how my ex-wife treated me.

There were also numerous notes about small amounts that she owed to a lot of family members including her own children and friends. And not even close friends. I've seen it happen - she commits to buy something, has no cash and her friend covers her for a short while.

The current sheets clearly show - if you know how to read them - what I'd been presuming. Significant amounts of money are being held back - probably about 50% of her net income after you discount out the expenses she pays herself such as car insurance etc. She probably has about $3k in cash at this point according to my math. This is sitting in three different bank accounts. This also makes sense based on her asking if she can make extra payments on the consolidation loan she took out when she moved in with me. I do know she is spending some out of there but not much. There have been things show up but no transaction showing in the chequing account.

To be honest, I really don't care but wish she was more open about it. My own finances are completely transparent to her. One of her complaints about past partners in fact was that they weren't transparent.

I have been trying to project rather than hide the fact that I'm not happy with the current state of my affairs. And yes - I take ownership of that. I'm the only one who is responsible. S is I am sure aware but may well be at a loss as to what she can do about it. And that's where again, it's about me. Even though I'm living under a cloud, I need to find my own sunshine where I can. It is difficult as I can feel myself being diminished and minimized and compressed. Even the physical space I have continues to reduce. I had to shoo S13 out of the office because there's now a couch in here for S to escape the boys to and he decided to camp out there the other day during my office hours. I don't feel able to create in the kitchen because it has to feed picky people with a variety of likes and dislikes. I can't just make whatever I want. Decorating the house for autumn should be done jointly - and so probably won't happen this year as I can't stir S to get out. She did buy two small pumpkins for the step which may be all that happens. Not my sort of thing - pumpkins are for eating but at least it's something. The living room is a no-go zone as the boys and random half-unpacked boxes are everywhere. My favourite chair usually has someone else's butt in it and the side table my daughter gave me is piled high. The dining room is impassible so hosting formal dinners in there isn't going to be happening for a while.

I really have no clue on how this will all pan out. It could continue along like this for years but I don't think it will. On the other hand I have a history of being wrong. My barber had strong words for me this morning saying that if S does leave - to absolutely under no circumstances have anyone move in again so quickly. With B - it was because of the fact that her apartment was un-inhabitable. With S it was because she aggressively pushed the agenda to where I asked. And I'm a push-over. I know this about me. Whether S not filing for divorce is a cynical hanging on to that thread with her former partner, a security blanket, or just plain laziness could be argued.

Enough whining for now. More later I'm sure

Fairly busy weekend. First weekend of the month. I hope to get some cleaning done although it's tough with the clutter. FSL at the flower shop asked if the boys were helping and easily interpreted the eye-roll over my mask.

Getting the storm windows up is the top priority though. S has asked that we set aside some time on Sunday afternoon for some "us" time. I have a few things to get caught up on for work - plans had to be adapted on the fly for a lot of the week and I have some things to set in train for a couple of big orders coming in. I'm taking a week and a half off starting next week. I intend to get the plaster work done in S13's room and some the repairs in the front porch done. I may also start tearing apart the kitchen. S has said that she wants to paint the cupboards and the inside of the front porch. I figure that if I do my part and have the rooms looking decent then they can be painted at leisure.

[Ginger1]

It can only continue on like this for years if you let it.

You have a voice. You have a choice. You don’t have to wait for her to make a decision for you and live in misery.

DNJ says to go in doing the things you love, but it seems like it is not physically possible in the environment you live in. And she doesn’t want to actually do anything so you’ll be doing that stuff alone, which is fine because you always enjoyed it. But cleaning up after 3 messy chaotic people I’m sure makes it a physically challenging environment and on top of that leaves you with little time trying to keep up with the added people and mess who don’t keep up in their own.

You have a choice if this goes on for years. You can’t change the way she lives, and she isn’t changing. But you can change how you chose to live.

Your spark is gone. It would be great if you could find it under the current circumstances, but it seems like a very large task with all barriers. My heart truly goes out to you

[exquisitetobe]

Andrew, i really wish things were different and you had the outcome you seak.

I am not a big fan of S. Imo, you got yourself a victim not a partner.
The victim who uses pity to get away with being responsable.
She even depends on our own kids to get the job done. Can she do anything on her own?

A quote who is straight to the point for YOU. " What you allow is what will continue. "

Put your foot down. This is your life, your house, your office.
You sharing those things with them is a blessing. They should have a huge amount of respect for you and they definately should do their part in making sure you do not pull away from them.

You are a wonderful, kind, generous and above all smart man. Don' t let them threat you and your generosity like it is deserved. You owe them nothing and you give them wayyyy tooooo muchhhhh!!!

[job]

Andrew,

If you want to decorate for fall, then by all means do so. I know that you enjoy bringing your boat out for Halloween and decorating and having candy available for the kids. I think Halloween is being canceled in my area this year because of the virus.

Andrew, take some time and really think about what you want and what use to make you happy. If it means that you have to step back from some of your projects to find that happy place for a day or so, then by all means do it. I know that you have a few projects to do, but tackle them one at a time and please, for goodness sake, don't take on any more until the projects that you have identified requiring your attention.

You are the only one who can determine what you and will not put up with. Don't be afraid to speak up. If you come here to vent (a safe place), then you should be able to speak up in your own home. As for saying something more than once...shame on her for shutting down when you mention the subject a second time.

It's your life and only you can determine when you've had enough. Let me ask you this question...is having S available and having sex frequently more important to you then your peace of mind and a good environment to live in?