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During the holidays W sent me a number of messages trying to talk about the presents for the kids for the sake of avoiding duplication. I ended up sending her a PM stating that we had nothing to discuss as I trusted she would choose presents adequately for her home and so I would for mine. She replied with an statement that I was not able to separate talking about us and the kids and that she was making the most to talk about everything related to the kids. I told her I understood her frustration but I was not going to have the conversation and moved on.


Good job! In the future just bear in mind that she will always have something to say after your statement.....and that's how she pulls you in to an argument. You can't win with that woman. BTW, what do you mean by "moved on"?

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Christmas holidays have been way better than last year. Instead of spending everyday glued to my phone waiting for that message from W that never came, I put my phone away and chose to have fun with my family, friends and the kids. We bought fireworks, we dressed up S2 as a reindeer for the Christmas party at the nursery, I got them some great presents, I went out with friends, I met some women on occasional dates and I continued to exercise with the bike, running and playing tennis.


Wow! That's great!

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Not all has been nice and easy, just on New Year's eve as I arrived home alone after being with my family I broke down and spent about an hour crying in the solitude of my home,


Grieving takes its time, b/c it's like you have to process how things use to be, and accept they won't ever be exactly the same again. That's not to say your future can't be as good as the past, but it will be different. I'm really proud of you, Pack. It's taken you a long time, but you are becoming the man you were meant to be. My hat is off to you for the effort you put into improving your life, and in yourself as a man. In my book, that makes you successful. You have many good years ahead of you, and I want you to be happy with the man you have become.

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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hi all!

Thank you so much for the replies! I feel better, I dont think I am out of the woods yet but I will continue working on myself and my relationships with the people who love and care about me.

I woke up today with a PM from W: "Good Morning! I have cut the hair of both kids". I have not replied to this message, but the best is that I dont have pressure or anxiety that tells me I should answer. As I said, 2021 is going to be different, I will make it different. Am I right by ignoring this PM?

Originally Posted by R2C
I love both of your responses!

Thanks R2C, I am doing my best to enforce boundaries in a healthy and respectful way, it shocks me how hard it is to do it with W and how easy it comes with friends and other external people. Again, detachment must be my goal number 1.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Cut the fat, just say "Email" and hang up. She'll get it eventually.

Hi overrnbw, yes I know I have issues with talking too long, Sandi has pointed this to me many times in the past. I will work on it.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

A good priest will tell you that prayer alone won't do it, you must practice it everyday.

I get up everyday and before I have my coffee I review my PIES and my goals, I know it takes a lot of discipline and effort but I always try to think what many people claim in this board, when you change for the better you attract the right people into your life. I pray not to fall on my old habits, both regarding interactions with W and my part in the destruction of the M. I am also working on the inner side of Pack, being a more mature, confident and loving man and accepting many times when I worried about finances or work it is a healthy thing, only one must know how to separate that for any loving relationship you have.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Your self improvement plan looks good. Are you living in Germany then? That's pretty cool.


Not now and honestly I dont think I will be able to come back. I miss Munich a lot, I feel like I did not have the time to enjoy and experience it long enough. I am currently in Seville and I have shared at work my worries about being isolated here and how it can influence my career as I am still young. A more experienced colleague told me we are all currently isolated at home and encouraged me that in the future we will find the way to make it work and not to worry a lot for now. I also want to get rid of the house we were buying there, it is really making me nervous and it ruins my ability to save as much as I need to eventually start over somewhere else. Let's see how that goes!

Originally Posted by sandi2

Good job! In the future just bear in mind that she will always have something to say after your statement.....and that's how she pulls you in to an argument. You can't win with that woman. BTW, what do you mean by "moved on"?

Hi Sandi! Yes I need to learn how to prevent those last responses from affecting me as much as they have done until now. It is good to be ready for them. By "moved on" I meant move on from the conversation. In the past, any conversation I had with her, any interaction always took a huge toll on me, I would spend hours thinking about it and I would eventually send her a reply. I want to remove all of that cr@p from my life.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Grieving takes its time, b/c it's like you have to process how things use to be, and accept they won't ever be exactly the same again. That's not to say your future can't be as good as the past, but it will be different. I'm really proud of you, Pack. It's taken you a long time, but you are becoming the man you were meant to be. My hat is off to you for the effort you put into improving your life, and in yourself as a man. In my book, that makes you successful. You have many good years ahead of you, and I want you to be happy with the man you have become.


Thanks a lot Sandi, I feel like I opened the door to the beginning of the end of this. please continue to help me and I will continue to work on myself and my kids. I will remain focused on my PIES and removing any communication with W for the sake of my detachment.

I am not having a good day today, lots of thoughts about the past, thankfully I will pick up S7 and S2 today and have them home all afternoon. Thank you all, your support means a lot to me.

((hugs)), Pack


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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I woke up today with a PM from W: "Good Morning! I have cut the hair of both kids". I have not replied to this message, but the best is that I dont have pressure or anxiety that tells me I should answer. As I said, 2021 is going to be different, I will make it different. Am I right by ignoring this PM?


No need to respond. I mean, little boys get hair cuts all the time.

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I will remain focused on my PIES and removing any communication with W for the sake of my detachment.


Sounds good.

Have you discussed grief with your IC? Your loss had a big impact on you. IC might recommend a book on the subject or give you advice in what to do on these hard days.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Seville looks beautiful. I saw a Rick Steves episode when he was there. I love the Moorish and Christian blends there, very cool. I'm sure I'd enjoy it differently than a resident but oh well.

I agree with Sandi, don't respond to informational texts like that.

Have you read MWD's "Stop Sign Technique" in DR? It really is great to utilize for controlling your thoughts when you say :

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I am not having a good day today, lots of thoughts about the past, thankfully I will pick up S7 and S2 today and have them home all afternoon. Thank you all, your support means a lot to me.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Hi all,

thanks for your support as always. I am busy today at work and the day is going much better than yesterday. S2's teacher sent me a couple of videos of the class dancing and he was on fire, it made my morning!

Originally Posted by sandi2

Have you discussed grief with your IC? Your loss had a big impact on you. IC might recommend a book on the subject or give you advice in what to do on these hard days.


I have never brought it up, she is so focused on the fact that I cannot accept my new reality and how I have lost my family and live in Germany that we barely move on from that. Thanks for the suggestion Sandi, I will do that.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Have you read MWD's "Stop Sign Technique" in DR?


Hi ovrrnbw, yes Seville is quite a place but for a person thriving in the IT world as I am now it is challenging to build a career. The good thing is it has good communication to Madrid and when the time comes I will take any chances that come along the way. I do remember this, it is the technique introduced when avoiding thinking about infidelity as you recover from an affair. I do apply it to all the thoughts of W being with OM but had never thought about doing the same for all the thoughts I have regarding Munich and my current situation.

I had the kids home yesterday, it was a busy day so I could not play with them as much as I would have wanted but they did have a good time home. When I left them with W I forgot to give her one of the backpacks so I called her mobile and the call was rejected, it turns out she left the phone up home where her mom was and she must have done it. I just tell this because it brought me all the ghosts from the many times I tried to call her in the past and she just rejected my calls. I then went to play sports with some friends and had a pizza home to give myself a little treat after a long day.

I dont think about how long it has been since DB anymore, now I want to sell the house in Munich and be free again. I have been thinking a lot about our M, I think I had a very sick way of communicating my worries but that does not mean my worries were reasonable and not those of a person that emotionally beats the other one down as W told me once. Maybe some day I will find a woman who will love the fact that I am a car freak and I want to own more than one, that they will be fast and that I will want to take her places in them. I bet she will not see this as selfish or childish.

Let's continue focused on the PIES and being a great father. Times goes by, I am thinking about when best to file based on my salary changes and the sale of our house, no contact with W and continue to detach and accept I cannot control anything regarding my M and my way out of here.

Thank you all for your support! ((hugs)), Pack


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
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Hi all!
I hope January is not being too harsh given the poor situation we have now with COVID. I have not posted before because I have a new project going on, one I am leading (yuju!), with a pharma company in Israel and I am fully at 'shine at work' mode. I have continued to work on my PIES and NC regarding W. We continue to exchange the kids only and she is always cheerfully saying hello and goodbye as if life was wonderful. I try to stay respectful and distant, I have noticed lately I have developed some kind of apathy towards W, as if all I want when we have to see each other is leave asap an resume the work on me.

I have not had my next IC session yet, but I will be sure to bring up the subject of grief. I continue to exercise a lot, run consistently over 30 km every week, I monitor my clothes and hygiene and I do my sexual kung-fu geeky things. It has been hard to have good conversations as we are close to lock-down again but I am devoted to my children, I have started a new ps4 game with S7 and I play a lot with S2 and all his new Christmas toys. I am still reading NMMNG and trying to focus on changing those behaviors and never letting any woman influence what I think about my believes and values. I have deviated my attention to refurbishing the bathroom in my house here, so that gives me something to stay entertained.

The other day I learnt W has moved to a smaller house which lucky for her is in the same building where her parents live, I guess this will mean more support with the kids which is great for S7 and S2. What hurts is that I had to hear that from S7, W only sent me the new address per PM and after I think she blames me for having to move after I lowered alimony, even if I am paying more that should be fair according to my L, I guess I am always going to be the bad guy, I dont say this as a victim, it really makes me sad that she has such a perception of myself.

Last week we went to a catechesis session for S7 and I have to tell it here because I need to vent out. It was pathetic, ridiculous and nonsense to be in the same room, sitting apart as strangers and not even exchanging a mere hello but listening to a nun talk about the bible, the family and Jesus Christ. I know I was there for my S7, but why are we pushing for him to have catholic values in the middle of a D? Sometimes I think it would be better for me to just tell her straight I want S7 to go to a good private school and cut all the catholic cr@p we get in Seville. Maybe I am furious because that same education and traditional values are destroying me inside for being unable to give my children a "model" family. When the parent's session was over we waited for S7 to come out, she made a couple of comments but I was silent and calm, then she made a couple of calls away from me (again that secret-ism hurt me, I need to work on detachment). She said bye to S7 and we parted our ways.

I still think a lot about the past, what we had in Munich and how much my life has changed over the last year and a half. My friends have made many comments about how I am growing as a man, but the truth is I still have days I cry for 20 mins in the shower or the bed. For me it still obvious with work on both sides we could have fixed many things, I guess I need to learn how to live with that feeling.

On another positive note I have built a couple of robots with the lego mindstorms EV3 with S7 and he loves them, what a cool idea as a surprise Christmas gift I had. It is very good to be so busy with work this week, that prevents me from thinking about how much I miss the little ones and all those negative emotions that are still with me. I am making a tremendous effort to be more thankful, cheerful and to focus on all the great things in my life. Thank you all for your support and please continue to post, you are always a source of strength!

Hugs! Pack


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Me 29 W:29
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Originally Posted by Pack_19

Last week we went to a catechesis session for S7 and I have to tell it here because I need to vent out. It was pathetic, ridiculous and nonsense to be in the same room, sitting apart as strangers and not even exchanging a mere hello but listening to a nun talk about the bible, the family and Jesus Christ. I know I was there for my S7, but why are we pushing for him to have catholic values in the middle of a D? Sometimes I think it would be better for me to just tell her straight I want S7 to go to a good private school and cut all the catholic cr@p we get in Seville. Maybe I am furious because that same education and traditional values are destroying me inside for being unable to give my children a "model" family. When the parent's session was over we waited for S7 to come out, she made a couple of comments but I was silent and calm, then she made a couple of calls away from me (again that secret-ism hurt me, I need to work on detachment). She said bye to S7 and we parted our ways.


Let me start by saying that I am not Catholic. I am not a big fan of that particular denomination. However, I think it is selfish to be tempted to upend your S7's life (switching schools is NEVER easy on a kid), just to ease your own conscience around what is happening. Pack, none of this is easy, but the one thing to always keep in mind is what is best for your kids. You can't fix what your W is putting them through, but you can always try to do what is best for them.

Keep working on detachment. Being apart from her and being detached from her are not the same things. Many LBSs get this wrong. "If I could just not be around him/her, then I could detach!" It is a false flag. A red herring. Detachment is about what is going on inside of you, not on what is going on around you. Hang in there man! Better days are ahead.

Oh, and congrats on work!


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hi Steve! Thanks for the message. I just feel like it is really fake! You want your son to be catholic, to grow on those values and surrounded by families who love all the social events linked to the church we have here in Seville, but you are divorcing and not only that, you have blamed the other spouse for all the problems and told him he did never respect or care about his vows, come on!

At some point I want to be able to offer S7 a better school, with better language courses and activities, the moment I can afford it, do you think it would be better to ask him if he would be willing to change or is he too small for these kind of important decisions?

W still has a huge influence over me when we meet or talk, I know this is a sign we are apart but I am not detached. Thanks a lot for the calm perspective you always offer Steve, back to my PIES and detachment.

P- Exercise, sports and looking great!
I - Let's get that promotion at work and finish my relationship and self help books!
E - Talk to friends and family, active listening and empathy with people around me and back to IC
S - Being cheerful, knowing better times will come, understanding I cannot control how this ends, assuming D will happen and remaining focused on my kids

Last edited by Pack_19; 01/26/21 04:41 PM.

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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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Might comment more later but do you see why the below doesn’t add up?
“ why are we pushing for him to have catholic values in the middle of a D? Sometimes I think it would be better for me to just tell her straight I want S7 to go to a good private school”


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
March 2020: I filed for D
Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
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Hint it’s the we and the I.


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
March 2020: I filed for D
Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
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