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I like your PIES.

Originally Posted by Pack_19
We have an appointment tomorrow at 13 to take S2 to the cardiologist for the first time in Spain. I plan to stay calm and focus on the communication with the doctors. What are your recommendations?
Getting in the right frame of mind before hand is important. It is about S2. That doesn't mean you can't shouldn't shine in front of his mom. I always made sure I looked and smelled good when I had parenting meetings with my X. Not that it mattered to her, but I felt better when I did.





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hi all,

@R2C thanks for the advice, I did put on some nice clothes and good cologne and tried to remain calm throughout the day.

The best news about yesterday is that the cardiologist told us the cavity S2 has in his heart is very small and our plan is now to wait and in many years time see if it has closed or if we would be interested in an operation to close it (not very likely he suggested). Here is how it went.

Shortly before 13 pm I sent W a pm asking if it would help for me to pick up S2 from nursery. She called back and said it would help and we could meet there. Picked up S2 and drove to hospital and I arrived first. I went into the waiting room and W arrived. I was focused on S2 who also seemed to be keener on playing with me than W. I stayed calm, never approached W and just stood there until it was time to come in. I tried to look happy but inside I had all these thoughts about WAWs being like cats, making things worse and controlling my impulses. I caught W staring at me a couple of times, I smiled at her and acted cool. She did pick up her phone 5 to 10 times while in the waiting room, she also did some nail biting and looked through a window for a long time. I was a smiling rock, I stood there in peace thinking about the run I was going to go for on the afternoon.

We were called in, only one could get in so I offered her to and took her coat and S2's backpack. When we sat in front of the cardiologist afterwards to hear the results, he asked questions W would answer and then look at me to check I agreed with what she was saying. We finished late, I held S2 hand as we walked out of the hospital and as it was past lunchtime asked W if she wanted to grab lunch. She said she wanted to work so I smiled and dropped the subject. Walked her to her car talking about S2 and she made a hurtful comment about how she could not talk to me about kids only and I told her that comment was not constructive. Then she told me some more parenting ideas she had to tell me about S7 not sleeping with us in the double bed (both when he is with me and with her) because he is "too old for that". I told her I would make sure he can sleep alone and then I wished her a good day, kissed S2 and left.

Got to my car and the moment I closed the door it all came onto me, I collapsed emotionally and started crying. I cannot explain my feelings, I had a great time seeing S2 play around with W and me, I think I did a good job as the father and man I want to be and at the same time it was one of the hardest days, constantly checking myself to be at peace, to stay cool, to not stare directly at W. I got home, made lunch and after a couple of hours I had a text from W asking me if I agree to the school taking some pictures of S2 for Christmas. I told her I did and thanked her for asking.

I spent the rest of the day working and feeling like cr@p. Right now it feels like this is going to be my life, she will do her thing, looking happier because she got rid of me in her life and I will build up nonsense expectations at every interaction linked to the kids because I cannot detach from a dead M. I am so sad, sorry for my poor work but I just needed to let this out here.

I went for a long run in the evening, 13.5 km at 4:30 min/km. When I got home for a shower I told myself, "Pack you did well today, you should be proud of yourself for you are doing all in your hands to get your family back together". I had dinner and read some more of my sexual kung fu book before sleeping.

Back to my PIES. Thank you all for your help, if it wasn't for this forum I would have approached her yesterday, said some pressuring things or maybe even attempted to touch her. Sadly enough, not doing those things is progress for me!

((hugs)) Pack

Last edited by Pack_19; 12/11/20 09:37 AM.

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PAC,

That’s really great news about your son!

As for the rest I am afraid you still do not understand that pressure/ pursuit does not work (asking her to lunch) and that you can’t nice her back. Also I get the feeling that with you knowing how many times she looked at her phone and the comment about wanting to touch her that you may be giving off a creepy vibe.

I think you really need to limit interactions with her for your own detachment.


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Pack, as LH said, great news about your son but why would you ask her if she wants to grab lunch? I'm glad you are being honest with us here but try to remember Sandi's advice and comments. Your W has treated your horribly yet you still offer her lunch? Surely you must know that is pursuit by now? I was as shocked as Sandi when I read you have been telling your W you love her(wtf!) and she mocks you. Is it perhaps because people here have said keep it business like and you thought having lunch together could be considered business?

I took my XW out to lunches and dinners throughout my entire sitch almost and I deeply regret that today. Yet my XW was never hateful towards me, we enjoyed each others company until the very end. But that should never have happened. It was nothing but cake eating and I only made things worse.

I'm worried what would happen if your W would soften up and want to hang out with you or worse, call you one day crying and say she regrets everything and wants to get back together.

Think about that for a moment, what would you do if that happened? Because if you are already being this nice after all she has done, I have a feeling you would forget DB in an instant and welcome her back with open arms setting yourself up for BD 2. Her anger towards you is so intense right now but things could change down the line. What would your reaction be then?

Last edited by BenB; 12/11/20 10:32 AM.

Me: 38
Stbxw: 35
No kids
Mini bd: February 6, 2019
ONS confirmed Sept 7, 2019
Told her to move out: September 8, 2019
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Originally Posted by LH19
PAC,

That’s really great news about your son!

As for the rest I am afraid you still do not understand that pressure/ pursuit does not work (asking her to lunch) and that you can’t nice her back. Also I get the feeling that with you knowing how many times she looked at her phone and the comment about wanting to touch her that you may be giving off a creepy vibe.

I think you really need to limit interactions with her for your own detachment.


Hi LH! Thanks for coming back!

I was starving and it felt natural, immediately I thought (cr@p that is pressure and I know it!) and this is why I simply dropped it so quickly. I was never creepy or clingy yesterday, I just noticed her on the phone because she was sitting close and kept looking at it, it brought me all these terrible memories about the thoughts I had at home in Munich about the phone being a higher priority to her than me or our M.

By touching I meant something as trying to reach to her arm when saying goodbye or sitting next to her on the waiting room. I did not do any of those things, I simply stood where I was and played with S2. I might have sent the wrong message but I really stood calm and in peace and I had always two sentences in my head "things are going to have to get worse and she needs to see the consequences of the decision she made to betray me and tear apart our family".

I am not trying to nice her back, that is just me, I am not a bad person and maybe I need to build up the b@lls to be harder on this DB and my detachment. I truly value and admire your feedback, I am not saying this to justify myself, I am just very frustrated because this is really hard, nothing I do seems to be in the right direction when it comes to interactions and I am tired of her disrespect. LH, I heard you all, I really think I was sending the right vibe yesterday and 100% focused on S2.

Originally Posted by BenB

I'm worried what would happen if your W would soften up and want to hang out with you or worse, call you one day crying and say she regrets everything and wants to get back together.

Think about that for a moment, what would you do if that happened? Because if you are already being this nice after all she has done, I have a feeling you would forget DB in an instant and welcome her back with open arms setting yourself up for BD 2. Her anger towards you is so intense right now but things could change down the line. What would your reaction be then?


Hi Ben, thanks for your comments and for trying to open my eyes. Sometimes I forget the pain and humiliation I have been through, I think it is to help my mind move pass it. If this call happened tomorrow, I would listen to her and as you say set myself up for BD2. I am working to be in a place that if this call was to happen I could be able to say, W I am a new man now and have very high standards for the person I want next to me, if you want to fix this M you will find the ways to prove it. (or something along the lines)

I don't think she is aware of the extend of the hurt she has and is still causing me. I read you posts and it makes me think I have to do a lot of work on believing my worth as a man and father. I need to be in a place where I am CONFIDENT something better will come, because I will be a better man.

I see I made mistakes yesterday but the way I behaved is the way I am, I am not trying to nice her back, I have learnt the hard way that cannot work. thank you for pointing this out, I will keep working for the next one and on my detachment.

((hugs)) Pack


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Hi Pack,

Quote
I just noticed her on the phone because she was sitting close and kept looking at it, it brought me all these terrible memories about the thoughts I had at home in Munich about the phone being a higher priority to her than me or our M.


I can so relate to this as probably most of us here can. I remember back in the spring of 2019 how my anxiety would cripple me whenever I saw my W on her phone, screen turned away from me. She had never been like that and then suddenly and over night, on her phone constantly. Thinking back on that now, I am so grateful to have detached to a point where I am no longer hurting because that was the worst period of my life.

I hope you can get there soon.

Pack, IF one day your W reaches out and says anything like that. Whatever you do, come here first. Say something to buy time and come here and ask for advice before you answer her.


Me: 38
Stbxw: 35
No kids
Mini bd: February 6, 2019
ONS confirmed Sept 7, 2019
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Originally Posted by Pack_19
I am just very frustrated because this is really hard, nothing I do seems to be in the right direction when it comes to interactions and I am tired of her disrespect.


This is your problem you still think you can do something to change the outcome. You are a highly motivated person and I think you are use to working hard and solving problems. This can't be solved by anything but time and space. I think she is mean and disrespectful to you because anytime she is semi decent to you she gets an "I love you" or "do you want to go to lunch"? So she realizes you are not safe to be around so she attacks you to get you to back off.

I'm sorry your are struggling Pack and I am not sure how we can help you.

Last edited by LH19; 12/11/20 01:45 PM.

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Originally Posted by Pack_19
the cavity S2 has in his heart is very small and our plan is now to wait and in many years time see if it has closed
Sounds like good news. I bet that was a relief to hear.


Quote
she made a hurtful comment about how she could not talk to me about kids only
This is an interesting comment.

I might suggest that you do some digging into your belief system and challenge it. I believe this topic should not be hurtful. It looks like an opportunity to validate, but without the exact details, I am only speculating.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Every interaction is a learning experience. I give feedback so that the next interaction may be batter.


Originally Posted by Pack_19
I caught W staring at me a couple of times, I smiled at her

Do some research on "when to smile at a woman". How to smile is also a good skill to have.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Hi all! wow I had not posted in a while and I find all this support! thanks a lot, it really means a lot to me.
Thanks a lot on the comments about S2 and his heart minor condition, it was a great relief and it made me think about those things that are truly valuable in my life now and how I should be more thankful.

@BenB, The comment I made about her on the phone was just to refer to those memories, I am working now to detach and hopefully be in a place these kind of behaviors dont event bring up ghosts from our past. Thanks a lot for sharing this with me, it is great to know I am not alone on these terrible thoughts.

@LH I am a hard working person and I am used to fight my way through in order to solve problems or achieve my goals, I need to change my thinking and understand this was not my decision and it is not under my control. I was just thinking today about the way maybe when she has been nice, she has found lots of pressure on my side, I am truly sorry for all the mistakes I have made and how they might have contributed to reduce or kill any chance I had to revert this, I hope I can stop any form of pressure / control so that in the long term our interactions change. Working on that as always! I am NC and try to avoid communications even when I think is for the kids or something we should share as parents. I am trying to start to live my life away from her, enjoying my kids when I have them, work and exercise when not.

@R2C thanks a lot for the tips. I remember I answered something along the lines that she could talk to me about anything without expecting inappropriate comments and she let it go. Again more material to think about. Do you have specific information on that tip about when to smile at women? It has really intrigued me!

I have not posted earlier because not much has changed. I continue focused on my PIES, the children and work. I have no interactions with W unless we exchange the kids and when we do I try to leave asap and never start a conversation. I have been busy doing Christmas shopping for the little ones and preparing for the upcoming project at work which will kick off in January.

I had a great weekend with the kids. Friday S2 was meant to get a Christmas costume for school and I got him dressed up as Rudolph, he was looking sweet and spent the day running around the classroom (teacher sent me a bunch of pictures, I told her this is not easy for me and ever since then she has continued to share pics of S2 with me daily, I am very thankful to her). Yesterday it was rainy and they did not want to leave home so we were playing some games and then ordered sushi for dinner. This morning, my sister stayed with them while I was out on the mountain bike with a close friend and then we went out for lunch. S2 is starting to repeat a lot of words in English, which makes me really happy because it is only when he is with me that he is exposed to the language (or my version of it smile hahaha).

Now today we exchange the kids, W was late as always because she was out, when she arrived at the door of the building where she lives I said goodbye to the kids and was about to leave when she stopped me and this conversation happened:

W: Two things about the kids. About catechism class for S7, when is it?
Me: It is once a month, it was last Tuesday and I took S7 there.
W: And you don't tell me? (here her tone became aggressive) I told you last time I took him and I want to be there and know everything.
Me: I could stop work and take him. I can let you know next time.
W: I want to know everything that happens to my children when they are with you
Me (here I interrupted her): You are talking to me in a disrespectful tone, I am leaving
W: Don't behave like a child!
Me: No, I am behaving like an adult and I will not listen to you if you speak to me like this.
Wife did not change the tone.
I turned around and left towards the car. As I moved away she shouted from the door "You are a son of a b*tch! I want to know everything related to my kids when they are with you" (All of this with both children there next to her)


I got in the car and tried to relax. I got two calls from W as I drove back home. I ignored them, I was full of thoughts that would not allow me to have a productive conversation, thoughts about how I missed S7 6th birthday, how she took the children to Spain while I stayed in Germany trying to digest what had just happened, how all I am to her now is a pay every month so she can live in a nice flat... I arrived home and left for a walk to the city center. I was thinking about my own worth and the respect I have for myself (or the one I should develop). I was listening to the audio I have with all the golden nuggets I have received from this forum and thinking about all the messages Sandi and LH have tried to get into my head, I thought about things getting worse and I imagined myself peaceful and still bearing the urge to be a nice guy to W...

Look, this is not my version, it is as it happened and as you can imagine it did hurt a lot. Sandi has told me on many occasions I try to justify my weakness or refer to lines of the DR book to justify my actions, I wish it was like this. I am truly bad at DB, I guess none of this comes natural to me and I dont know what to do to help myself become a stronger man. At this point, I want this to be over, I want this terrible time of my life to be over and at the same time I know nobody is going to come pick me up, it is entirely up to me. I guess it is a sign I still have work to do on Pack.

About sharing information on the kids. I don't want to use the children as a reason to contact her, but now she comes to me with all these shouts about knowing everything that concerns the kids when they are with me. My thoughts are, look W, I never wanted a D, I never wanted a broken family but if this is how our lives are going to be, a D with shared custody means just that, I will give you no explanations when they are with me as I will not ask for them when they are with you. Am I right in thinking this way? Maybe you can help me understand this better, I have always seen D as missing half the time of my children, I guess this is why these comments from her side make me revengeful, which is not healthy.


Back to surviving day after day and my PIES.
P- Weights, the bike, running, my sexual kung-fu exercises and my new clothes and cologne wink
I - Still learning at work, planning next year for a promo with my manager
E - Active listening, continue to talk a lot with S7 and grandma and now thinking a lot about my beliefs and self respect (this is now a big part of how I think about the man I want to be, confident, attractive, strong and loving)
S - Praying more, staying positive about a happy future with or without W

Thank you all, I hope I can get a lot of feedback on this last interaction and you all can help me overcome my old thoughts about being able to win W back with hard work and not respecting myself as a man.

I deeply appreciate all your comments, Merry Christmas to everyone in the forum!
((hugs)), Pack


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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