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I think you put it perfectly. That sounds great.

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Hi Sage,

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If I don't allow H to come, birthday child will feel like he has to make it up to H emotionally. Birthday child won't feel he is able to share stories of the fun and exciting things that happened at his birthday because it would hurt H that he wasn't there. So then my child is back in the position of stuffing down his emotions to please H.

It sounds a little to me like you are imagining if H comes it is going to be this perfect birthday, and if he doesn’t come it will not— or, at least, the aftermath will not.

It is awful that your child has to have these mental gymnastics about something as straightforward as his birthday. But I want to gently challenge you on this. Your H could come and be a jerk and your son may then feel guilty about asking that he was there (if he’s shouldering the burden of his father’s happiness, even if you haven’t done a single thing to make him feel responsible he may feel the burden of yours as well). He could be monitoring your H the whole time to see how much he talks to you and if he’s having fun and then doesn’t focus on it being his day. H could behave beautifully and then the children start to think maybe he will come home.

I just think it is a big assumption that your son will actually be happier or better off with H there. Yes, it may very well be that he won’t be able to enjoy it uncomplicatedly because your H isn’t there. It very well may be impossible for him to enjoy it uncomplicatedly NO MATTER WHAT, because of the bomb your self-centered H has thrown into all of your lives. That is not on you. That is on him.

Also, this is your decision, not your son’s— you are the parent and the adult and if you choose to have H celebrate his birthday another time, you can make it crystal clear that it was not your son’s call, so he doesn’t need to feel responsible.

(((sage)))


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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Hello Sage

The decision to not invite H was for your wellbeing, not punishing H.

Rock solid boundaries are excellent in theory. However, like most theoretical things, when putting them into practice a little give and take is sometimes required. Is this one of those times? I’m not sure it is. I’m not sure it isn’t.

Your children feeling responsible for Dad’s emotions, for his happiness, is of course troubling. People (Dad) are responsible for how they themselves feel. No one else is responsible. It may do good for child having Dad miss the party. To realize that Dad is still around and that they made it through as well. I do not think Dad’s absence would over shadow the fun-filled day.

It is interesting the birthday child wants Dad there. That he would feel bad for his Dad if he were left out. It would be so much better if child wanted Dad there because they love him, and he’s lots of fun, and they have such a good time.

Your children do sound like they are in touch with their feelings. Understanding and expressing how they are angry with Dad. Expressing how Dad left to find his happiness causing much hurt along the way.

Yes, they are children, and they don’t yet say anything to cause Dad to feel bad or sad. They cannot risk loosing him. However, they will grow, and they will eventually speak their minds and hearts.

The relationship between child and father is their’s. It is not your job to facilitate it. It is your job to not destroy it.

As I said, theory and practical sometimes don’t quite align. There is your wellbeing, the children’s wellbeing, the growth of you and them, and the example you are setting for your children. For they are watching and learning. How should one, how does one, behave during these times is being imprinted and will have an affect upon their relationships. Hence kindness and compassion, especially for one’s self.

So, after much rambling, what you stated is perfect. Clearly state and hold to your expectations for H - if he is invited. I am really on the fence.

I am a hopeful person. Usually looking to see the best within all the possibilities. To that, talk to H, laid out the expectations clearly, and invite him.

Conundrums, concerns, and problems are put in our way to help us grow. All we can do is the best with what we have. Given birthday child’s request, I think inviting Dad will be the path of lesser regret. It is kind and compassionate. Let’s hope H makes the best of it.

D


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DnJ #2906719 10/26/20 08:54 AM
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Dear Sage,

I fully agree with DnJ. I too have 3 children and fully understand the position you are in.

I am also a hopeful person and have always followed the path of approaching my husband in a calm, forgiving and friendly manner, without actually being a doormat.
If he said or did things that were hurtful to me or the children, I would say in a direct but gentle way to stop it and then walk away from him.

This helped in most cases.

If you feel that he should somehow be present at the party, then you should go ahead with it. You have to let your own feelings speak.

In most cases, when they are surrounded by people other than the family, they tend to act more calmly. Let's hope he does this if you still decide to invite him.

Good luck!!


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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I have another perspective to offer.

Did it ever occur to you that you will be doing more for your H and even your M by saying no than by saying yes?

I agree that protecting yourself is the most important thing, so let's start there. H will say you are punishing him; that's the MLCer outlook on everything. He also said all his problems are your fault, I assume. You know you are not punishing him. You know you need space and you know you sorely need treasured time with friends. So ignore his interpretation and know you are protecting your solitude. So if you need that solitude to heal, as you did hiking with your mom, know that that healing is the KEY to your standing. If you are exhausted or anxious all the time, you will burn out from standing or you will not be able to do it with a clear head.

Now for H -- Your choices can't be there to teach him anything except that you have a boundary, and he might not learn that anyway. But you still have to do it, it may be the only thing that will work on him. He is a teenager. If your teenager drove drunk, would you give him access to the family car the next week so that he would feel you trust him? Your H wants to drive drunk (MLC metaphor) into your party. No thank you! Not good for H, for you or for the party guests. He can design a very special birthday activity for his kid without you, he is choosing that.

Now if you kid really really wanted H there and you had the strength to do it, I might say go for it. But even then I might not. My D wanted to bring my dog to her dad's house and I said as gently as I could that the dog lives here and that her dad can always get a special pet if he wants one. It's awful but I think it's ultimately good for my D to also see boundaries. The whole situation stinks but clarity on boundaries is a good way for our kids to to not wonder and worry about so many unknowns. Things are known and then they too can work on acceptance.

I stood for seven years and my H lived there for five of them. I assure you that no amount of saintly resolve will change them. Some of them do change, and I believe in restoration with all my heart and mind. But I thinkboundaries might be the only chance for the LBS healing and thus for the potential restoration when/if the MLCer ever takes his mind back from the Alien Forces who took over his body.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Thank you all for the thoughtful advice and support during my 'crisis', dear friends.

I felt clear and strong in my intentions when H and next spoke about the birthday. That he would be able to come and the expectation would be that we worked on a friendship and being amicable prior to and during the party. I felt capable of it and H affirmed that he was as well.

I thought it was going to be a quick conversation, but it morphed into a huge R talk. More of a one-sided conversation, in that I listened and validated and tried to re-direct when things started to feel intense. But I learned SO much from that conversation (I think Job is the one that says to sit back and listen because sometimes the MLCer will say a LOT and there will be some truths mixed in there worth examining). So I did a lot of listening.

Some of what H said he has stated before. And maybe I was only now able to 'hear it' and validate because I am in a more detached headspace?

Some of the key points that have stuck with me over the past few days:

H is deeply, deeply, deeply insecure. To a degree that I never recognized. Some childhood issues came up and then I saw them manifest into his current state within the same conversation. It was like watching a sci-fi movie. It made me feel deeply compassionate towards him. But at the same time also made me realize how much we both have been compensating for these insecurities over the years instead of really addressing them. Not that they were mine to address in the first place.

He questioned my fidelity in such a way that don't think this was a manifestation of his own guilt coming to play. Loyalty and integrity are huge values for me. The fact that he wove this narrative in his head about me over the years makes me so sad. For him, as a reflection of his insecurities, more than a 'how could he ever think that?!?' sort of way.

He can barely deal with his own emotions and those of the children, let alone mine.

We both have sheltered our narratives in a bubble of our own pain and suffering over the past year. And those narratives could not be more opposite. Detachment is helping me to re-write my own narrative with more self-compassion and compassion towards H. I don't know if he will ever be able to reconstruct his narrative. But I hope one day he will.

I left the conversation feeling hopeful. Not about my M or our R, but about the lessons I am learning about myself. Mainly, that I am capable of detaching. That I can listen to all of this and feel compassion instead of it instigating a defense mechanism in me.

In the few days since our conversation, we have worked on being friends. Warm hugs, kindness, chit chat. He opted to come to my house and sit side-by-side through parent-teacher zoom conversations instead of joining the zoom from his own home. We had lunch today at my house and sat alone and chatted throughout.

In a recent parenting challenge, he accused me of coming to the parenting table with my 'own pain and suffering about our situation' but I gently stated that those emotions weren't present in my life at the moment and I was truly focussed on our children. He heard this, not because I said it, but because I am living it right now.

He is wobbly and I can tell that this is uncomfortable for him. It's easier to vilify me when I am reacting from a place of hurt, instead of interacting from a place of detachment.

Interestingly, I feel we are further from any sort of reconciliation than closer to it. I sadly believe that maybe he is right: I am not the person for him in this life. Not that I wouldn't like to be. Not that I wouldn't do anything to have our family intact again.

I will sit with this for a while.

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Hello Sage,

Well it's been eventful for you in my absence. You sound like you're doing well. You're navigating co-parenting really well. It does get easier with time and space, but co-parenting for everyone looks different. It's always valiant to continue to work towards your ideal version of that, but leave yourself room for it not always being so. ExH and I go through waves of doing well co-parenting and speaking about business only regarding our daughter. H's ex, baby mama, as we like to call her don't speak or cooperate at all unless there's a crisis, and in those instances I'm usually the one leading the parenting which always turns into a fight once we're through the crisis. Things change. People change and dealing with an unstable ex/co-parent is always an interesting ride.

Whoa boy, did you hit a nerve with me with the insecurity and childhood issues. ExH and H are deeply insecure people. I knew both were. ExH was at least aware he was insecure but didn't understand how it was manifesting in his relationship with me or anyone else. I spent so much time in that relationship being accused of being a WW that to this day I still don't fully regret cheating on him. I spent 7 years constantly having to prove my fidelity over and over and over. That no matter the holes on my end that led to my affair, I still 12 years later think a big aspect of my willingness to cross that line was that I spent 7 years being called horrible names related to my supposed infidelity. IMO what would really have been the difference if I actually was unfaithful and went for it. BTW the answer was nothing, nothing changed other than he actually started to realize I was not only capable of leaving him, but I could easily find someone who would treat me better.

And now present H oh boy, H's insecurity. H was living under the delusion he wasn't insecure until we started having R talks about the A when he was still prepared to leave me. The things he accused me of doing in the relationship obviously some truth was weaved in there and I owned and apologized for the things that were true, but the scenarios he created that never happened all surround the same thing. My intelligence and education. My H is wasted potential. He knows this. His family knows this. I know this. But he makes so much money doing what he does he's had no incentive to change paths. When he brought up imaginary scenarios about when I "belittled" him I flat out told him that those things never happened and even in a couple cases it was other people who were simply teasing him, but had nothing to do with what came out of my mouth. I then followed that up with, I'll own my mistakes, but I'm not apologizing for things that didn't happen or your insecurities. That's a you problem. As we're digging in now, he's acknowledging how that along with his mommy issues have kind of been hanging over our relationship and that he set me up to battle against things I didn't even know I had to contend with. He's accepted and is apologetic how hard he's made our entire relationship pitting me against his demons, expectations and other women (including his mom and daughter) from the get go.

To be honest looking back on all the WH stuff I've read through here and other places, that deep insecurity seems to be a really common thread. And it's a monster none of us have a chance of beating unless WHs are willing to work on themselves and own it.

You sound so clear headed and calm. While you sit in ponderance of your distance from R and that intact family idea, think long and hard about your peace, and how much growth you've had and are having. The thing that a learned about MR long before any of this is they only work if you're willing and able to grow together, even if that journey needs to be accomplished in a parallel fashion versus in tandem.

Thinking of you often xoxoxo

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How was the party? Thinking of you!! xx M


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Update on the party:

It went really well. Everyone had a really good time, it felt easy and comfortable. I found my emotional footing and led by example, of how I wanted to be treated and how I wanted others to treat H. And the best part was how absolutely delighted birthday child was with the whole thing. It was one tiny light in this whole Covid mess-- that birthday child got to be the center of attention on his actual birthday.

Some parents and the children from the party had planned an outing today and I asked H last night if he wanted to come along. He did and afterwards we spent some time as a family picking out child's promised gift (he got to pick it out instead of us giving it to him yesterday). We haven't been together like this in a long time and it felt easy and normal. We looked like a normal family for a minute-- at one point both of us were holding one side of our D's hands. It felt metaphorical: we may not be able to show love directly to each other, but we can show love and respect through these beautiful humans that were made through our love.

I don't feel triggered by H nearly as much anymore. We had one slip up a couple of days ago where H started to show some intense emotions that seemed disproportionate to what we were discussing. The old me would have taken his emotions personally and reacted from a place of hurt, as he was accusing me of something that I felt I shouldn't have to justify, but instead I was able to take a deep breath and tried to dig deeper to see where he was coming from. I don't know if I completely understood the root of his feelings, but I felt capable of defusing the situation and validating and we left the situation in a place where we both felt understood. That was a huge boost for me-- it showed me I am capable of taking a path that helps both of us feel good about the other.

Detachment for me has allowed me a lot of space to feel safe in my R with H, whatever that R looks like. I am no longer in the trees, and for the most part I can stay at 30,000' and see the forest. Will I vacillate and have ups and downs? No doubt. But each interaction is teaching me that I can do this. I am deeply invested in deconstructing my ego and trying to see things from a different narrative. At the end of the day if nothing changes in my R, I will have used this time to find the best me.

Wayfarer, it is so lovely to see you here. Thanks for your insight and wisdom, as usual.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
To be honest looking back on all the WH stuff I've read through here and other places, that deep insecurity seems to be a really common thread. And it's a monster none of us have a chance of beating unless WHs are willing to work on themselves and own it.


I couldn't agree more. 14 years of trying to fill a cup that had leaks in it turns out to be a lesson in futility. Only the individual is capable of plugging those holes that were created in childhood; no one else can do it for us. Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. That, and trying to give my children the tools and resiliency to fix their own holes when it comes time for them to examine their cup of life.

xx

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Sage, how lovely to read of birthday child's delight! Was there cake, too? Tell me about the cake. smile I'm so glad others were able to follow your example of how to treat H, that everyone, including H, came together to make the day about the birthday child, as it should be.

Originally Posted by Sage4
14 years of trying to fill a cup that had leaks in it turns out to be a lesson in futility. Only the individual is capable of plugging those holes that were created in childhood; no one else can do it for us. Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. That, and trying to give my children the tools and resiliency to fix their own holes when it comes time for them to examine their cup of life.

Your writing about detachment is helping me see where I need to do more work. I think I subconsciously still feel responsible for some of my H's insecurities (as I continue to recognize how deep they were/are), for some of his anger. Wayfarer is right, and I love how clearly you are able to know what is your work to do and what is H's. This especially feels freeing, and is something I need to remind myself of every day: "Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time."


T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
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