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May, part of the issue and why you are stuck is that you have spent so much time on this — in your head, with IC and here. But you won’t make sense of it because it doesn’t make sense. He’s been having an A. You are focused on details because YOU have attributed meaning to them, not because that is reality. The reality of his infidelity is in his head and not something you can control. He can do as you require and block all contact and she can still find a way. So can he. So your sense of security in that is a false one by your design. You are explaining how he is making progress and I’m glad. I hope it holds true. But his actions over the years is that he cannot he trusted. There is a bigger component here that I think we are overlooking and that is what a person does, says and shows you when they are returning to a M. You will see it when it happens and you will know it and feel it in your bones. He is not doing that yet. You can’t make him and you can’t convince yourself or us. Let. Him. Go.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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May, I understand how you’re feeling. I tend to go with the “don’t over analyze” route with yourself and others. I feel like you can try to practice letting go a bit....the whole “you do x and he will do y. You do x and he will think y.” You do whatever you think is right and his actions and thoughts are on him.

If you choose to back down on this blocking thing (I’m not saying you should, I don’t know the right answer either), you can be honest and just tell him that you’ve changed your mind because of xyz. Our opinions and feelings about things change all the time. It does not mean that you are giving in to his critiques or you will teach him that he can pressure you into changing. He is thinking the exact way you’re describing: “If I block AP because she’s giving me this ultimatum, that will teach her that she can control me in the future.” How does that mindset for both of you move your relationship forward?

Originally Posted by may22
blocking her at least releases my anxiety about her reaching out during this trip and allows me to relax and enjoy the family time. It doesn't mean anything else-- that he is prioritizing me, or wants to R, or is remorseful, or anything else. It simply means I can trust that they won't be in contact, and without that I don't want to go. I'm really trying not to put anything more on it than that.

Have you said this to your H? It communicates a very different mindset from “I don’t really care what you do or say to her, just block her or I won’t go on this trip.” Sorry if you have, I admit I’ve skipped some of the parts in the previous threads. :P

I’m rooting for you!!

Last edited by wooba; 07/26/20 03:24 AM.

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[/quote]On the trip and the kids-- I think if we don't go on this trip, he will pull the S/D trigger. He will be furious. Maybe I'm partially pushing this for that reason-- if feeling like I'm so controlling or selfish or whatever and taking this trip away from the children is what he needs in order to push him in that direction, so be it. But that is also making it so that I can't really say I don't want to go regardless of what he does with the blocking, unless I am purposefully saying I want to D. If he does as I ask, I am pretty much locked into going.[quote]


May, this is troubling to me. A huge red flag. Here he is controlling and this is an ultimatum. This does not a marriage make.

I don’t see a man that is remorseful and committed to working and understanding. You will know when you see that man. I promise. None of the details of this trip or if he blocks her matter right now. You will need to know and feel he is back and trust he means it. I’m just not reading that. Protect yourself.

Blu


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Originally Posted by wooba

Have you said this to your H? It communicates a very different mindset from “I don’t really care what you do or say to her, just block her or I won’t go on this trip.” Sorry if you have, I admit I’ve skipped some of the parts in the previous threads. :P

haha I know i post waaay too much. I need to stop.

I have said some of this to him. Maybe not explicitly or quite as clearly as I did here. I have said why I want him to block her and I believe he gets and is OK with that from the conversation with the IC yesterday. I don't necessarily think he believes it doesn't mean I think a whole bunch of other stuff, like you said. I know he thinks I think that there is some magic wand that will fix us if we only want it hard enough, like Dorothy and her ruby slippers. He is vv scared of going back to the same place we were before. I guess I could be clearer about this, IDK.

Blu, the IC called him out on this manipulative behavior too, that not going on this trip means we can't be M. I'm not scared of that. He knows what needs to happen for the trip to take place. If it doesn't, and we S or D, fine. I think he feels I've put an ultimatum to him and he's putting one back. It doesn't move me. And the honest truth is I *do* want to go on this vacation. I need it. I will legitimately be bummed about the trip itself if we don't go. But, at this point I'm not willing to bend. If he blocks her, I'll go. If he doesn't, I won't.

He said in passing (kids not down yet) that it is pretty much done again. I said I don't understand. He said the reason that nothing is happening is that nothing is happening, it will happen regardless before we go. I said let's talk about it after the kids go to bed. I'm not sure what he means, if I had to guess it would be that he's tried to reach out to tell her and she hasn't responded. we will see.

Blu, I get that he isn't crawling back on his hands and knees. That will never, ever happen. Not in a billion years. if I want to wait for that, I will wait forever. That is not my H and if he did it I'd be weirded out and probably uninterested. (Though, TBH, I can imagine that happening in one circumstance-- we split, he hits rock bottom, he comes crawling back. But in that case, I won't want him back. I know we have different lines. For me the PA doesn't even touch the betrayal of actually walking out the door... I can't explain it and I don't know why, but it is exponentially worse, to me. So he crosses that line and all of this becomes easy peasy for me. I promise you I will immediately fall in line and go hard cold NC and be done done done.)

But. Given that that hasn't happened yet, I am also not in a place where I can walk away from the M and kick him to the curb. I get that you wish I would. I get that you were glad you did just that. I can't. It would break me. I can handle it if it happens to me. Not if I'm the instigator. So. Where does that leave me? How do I let him go without booting him? I have said over and over to GO. Please. GO. Let me go. you are free to go. If you want to go, go. Every possible combination of those words I have said to him. He will not do it. What do can I do? Understanding that I won't be the one to walk?


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May, how can we help you recapture the mindset you had before the custody discussion on your old thread? It’s like all the fight went out of you and your righteous anger was replaced by fear. Your posts since then seem so defeated.

In terms of custody, yes, you do have to think about what is best for the kids and no, you won’t get what you want. But when it comes to the marriage, why is the fact that YOU deserve so much better not a good enough reason to leave?

You keep mentioning the OW throwing bombs and if only you can keep her away from your H, then things might be okay. But the problem isn’t OW, the problem is your H and his weak character. Cutting off OW isn’t going to change HIM.

The best time to have nipped this behaviour in the bud with the sledgehammer of consequences was when you found out about the affair. The second best time is as soon as possible! Otherwise what incentive does he have to improve his character when you continue to accept his boot on your neck?


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May, I think the more contact and conversations you have with your H, the more confused you get.

Most of your conversations seem to be about him trying to manipulate you into doing what he wants, and you trying to manipulate him into doing what you want.

How about you just accept that he doesn't want to block his mistress, and make a final decision based on that? How long do you want to wait until you accept that? Until he has the suitcases in the car and the kids strapped into their seats in the back?

The IC feels like a waste of time, to be honest - and in my country it would be totally unethical for a therapist to be seeing both of you as separate clients if this wasn't specifically a strategy in marriage therapy. No therapist can guarantee impartial support in those circumstances - it's why there are guidelines about that sort of thing. It may be different where you are, but consider it anyway.

You've communicated your need to him very clearly. He went ahead and planned the trip anyway, which was manipulative of both you and your children and ignored what you said. You went along all the same, jabbing at him and reminding him of the hoop he's got to jump through before you'll go. He jabs you back, claiming that you're controlling and that if he doesn't get the trip AND an open door to his mistress, he'll divorce you.

My therapist told me that it is fine to ask for what you need. It is fine to make a suggestion or give some advice. You do that once, then you leave it. Any more is manipulating and nagging and controlling. Your husband's answer to your request is no.

Look at his actions. He will say whatever he wants - including threats, sulking, charm, deflection etc etc to get you distracted, but you have asked him for something and his action says 'no' very loudly. Accept that and make your decision based on his no rather than putting your energy into trying to change it for a yes.

This needs to be much much much much less complicated. The less you say to him the better. You don't want to go on the trip. So you don't go. You work out what happens with the kids, and you leave him to deal with any feelings he has about it.

If he threatens you with divorce, give him the details of your lawyer then go and GAL and self care. If he guilts you about the children, make a vague listening noise and go and GAL and self care. If he promises you the world and comes at you on his hands and knees, make a listening noise and go and GAL and watch for his concrete and consistent actions.
If at some point comes to you of his own free will with a transparency plan of his own devising, then you can listen to him and decide if that makes him a husband worth committing to. Right now he isn't, so your sole responsibility is to those kids, who are being treated like pawns here: your husband getting them to look forward to a trip that you've already told him you won't be going on if he doesn't block his mistress.

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I am also not in a place where I can walk away from the M and kick him to the curb.


There isn't a marriage. The marriage died the second he started a relationship with someone else. This isn't about you walking away from a marriage, this is about you withdrawing from an unhealthy dynamic with a cheater you have to cohabit with in the hope that you will either have a healthy divorce or a chance at a healthy R at some point in the future. You are not walking away from anything real or worth having at all.


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May,

I think Scout and Alison are brilliant. I have been reading their advice to you and agree with all of it.

I also questioned this IC and them seeing both if you. There are different types of therapy, like MC and family therapy, but an IC should not see two people separately that have conflict. I’m questioning how they justify this. Anyways.

I don’t think your H needs to come crawling back full of remorse and desperation or whatever. I can read he has a very different personality than my H. But from all the stories I have read here, there is a shift that needs to happen before the M can be worked on. This shift includes vulnerability, honesty, transparency and commitment to working on the M. It is not until this happens first that you then begin to have conversations and consider him. So I’m honestly perplexed at the family vacation. Again, I know we are also different. I just fear that you give so much time and attention to him so he has no real motivation to look at his mistakes and change. Your time and attention is actually acceptance.

I also want to clarify what I mean when I say to let him go. I know you don’t want to boot him out and that him moving out feels like the point of no return. I hear that. When I say let him go, I mean it literally and figuratively. You can’t control him and he can’t control you. This dynamic is not moving forward. Let him be and do what he will do. Then based on his actions over time you can decide if he is a man that is ready to recommit. Until you see that man (trust me you will know the change when you see it, I’ve read that in every situation here) THEN that is the time you can start having M conversations, counseling and consider a family vacation. In the mean time I think you should do nothing. Tip toe away from him, no R talks, ignore bad behavior, focus on you and the kids. Let him throw a fit and walk away.

Blu


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Scout, it was the kid and custody thing that broke me. When I realized that no matter what in a D situation I am going to get half the time with my kids that I do right now, and maybe not be able to afford to keep my house, I simply can't walk down that path. I can't. I don't care. Of course I don't want a cheating, lying husband. But I Fed up seventeen years ago and chose this one and married him 13 years ago and then we had two beautiful children and I-- selfishly-- am unable to walk my own two feet down a path that involves them sleeping in another house half the week. Hopefully I can revisit this and the good things about having some time for myself. I know I can if it happens to me. I just can't be the one to do it. I do feel defeated.

The other difference that I know I'm experiencing that most probably aren't is that my H is fun and sweet and a good partner most of the time. I hear all of you that I should discount that, it is him just pushing the buttons that work on me, but I genuinely don't believe he is a sociopath and ignoring the perfect H he is showing me in every other aspect not connected to the A is much, much harder than you might think. Aaaaallll of the things I have complained about over the years are mostly gone. Even when we fight, even the conversations I've described where he was railing about control (Scout, me being so close minded I can't call myself a democrat wink ) that is all still minor and rare, and voices weren't raised. It wasn't a real fight. He has/had the capacity to be a real duck if he wants and he mostly hasn't gone there since we reversed course a couple of months ago. I feel beaten down here like I should be able to ignore all of that and just laser focus on the A, which is also hard since it is long distance and he is telling me it is over. I get that it is easy to say from a distance to do X,Y, Z. It is just a lot harder sitting where I am.

I think he is confused and he genuinely doesn't want to leave this M. I think he feels he got himself into a really $hitty situation and is paralyzed. I think he is very, very good at compartmentalizing. I think AP is manipulative and weird and yes, I do think that him cutting off all contact from her will bring him back to his senses. That won't change his issues with not being able to live his values, the entitlement/empathy/responsibility problems. But it could give us a place from which we could choose to work on our M, both of us, and see where that goes. Or not. So am I using the excuse of this trip to push the issue? Yes, I acknowledge that is probably the case, that this was a thing that can't happen with his A still being active. With my inability to walk I was feeling like there was the chance of this just going on forever.

He has told me that he is in the process of doing what I have asked and it will be done before we leave. Last night he fell asleep early and we didn't talk. This morning in passing he said it was done. I said we need to sit down and talk about it. He said OK. I think me pushing this is not a great idea.


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May - early on in my sitch I read a book about radical acceptance. If you google that term, you will probably find it. I found it really interesting and not in any way against DB principles. I get that you're not willing to leave him and take the girls, and that even though you've asked him to leave, he is at the moment refusing to. Perhaps your energies are best spent right now in truly, radically accepting what is, rather than using your energies to try to change it. You can't do anything to make him faithful, you can't do anything to make him love you, believe your changes, trust you, cut off contact with the OW, be consistently honest with you, or anything at all. That isn't just you - that is true for every single marriage, happy or otherwise. I think the energies you put into changing the status quo are harming you, your marriage and even, in some way, your husband.

If you accepted that right now your H is dishonest, hasn't done the work to examine himself, isn't volunteering detail about his actions (why are you suggesting you talk this over? He either wants to tell you, or he doesn't. Let him come to you or accept that he doesn't want to come to you and give you the information you seek) and has a very recent history of manipulation - if you truly accepted, without trying to change it, that was where you were, what would happen?

You could still stay. You could still decide that 100% of time with your girls and keeping your house was worth living closely to a man like this. You could remain open to the idea that in time, he might change (and equally, he may not). But you'd do it with clear eyes, and you'd keep your hands entirely off him and his process. You'd act in the reality of what is, being close to him in ways that allowed you to respect yourself, and setting boundaries that are appropriate for the kind of man he's chosen himself to be (for example - you had an STI test, but he's slept with her since you had that clean panel and lied to you about it for some time afterwards, hasn't he? Do you still want to be exposing yourself to disease in order to have a sexual relationship with him? Do you need to have another test?)

Radical acceptance feels like a a harsh path, but it's actually a very gentle one. It helps you to give up flogging that dead horse of attempting to change or influence someone else. Your husband is, for whatever reason, a habitual liar. You choose to stay in your marriage out of the hope that might change, and because of your kids and the house. I don't judge you at all for that. I'm in a similar place: my husband is a cheat and a liar too - or at least, a couple of years ago he was. I still don't trust him. He has a habit of anger and blame that tips over into abuse, and my heart is not safe with him. I can accept this as fact, and accept that for the time being I am choosing to stay in my situation for reasons that are partly healthy, and partly unhealthy. But being clear about the facts helps me - more or less - to walk a path of (imperfect) detachment. He is free to do as he wishes. I am free to not trust him and act accordingly. You can develop this acceptance and get the space between your husband's actions and your decisions without having to leave him or kick him out.

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Hi Alison,

I spent some time around radical acceptance early on but haven't really revisited. Meditation and accepting my thoughts and feelings without letting them overwhelm me is also something I worked on last summer/fall but have let fall away. I think this is a good idea for me to focus on here, thank you for suggesting it.

Generally, I do think I've been better at reducing my own manipulative behaviors and seeing his (thanks in great part to your help). I think part of the issue for me is that it simply isn't all that clear cut. He has lied. He tells me he is fully transparent now and wants to do that going forward. I can accept both at face value and choose to disbelieve him now because of the past or simply put no weight into his words and only watch his actions. But even given all of that, the current path I'm on does hold the possibility, however remote, of what I want in the end. He would need to step up for that to happen, on his own. And I need to let it happen and not force anything.

It is also important to note that I don't believe he has lied in any other sphere of our lives other than around his relationship with AP. This has been very important for him to communicate with me and I believe it, 100%. I went through all of our finances. I know other WAHs do all sorts of auxilary things, hide money, etc. I trust him fully that nothing else is going on.

I do think that I've come a long ways in accepting that this is my reality right now in a way I really fought against in the beginning. I feel like that is maybe part of my problem. It is what it is. He is my H and the father of my children. He has also betrayed me terribly and is not crawling back to me on his hands and knees begging for forgiveness. I see all of that. I can ask for what I want and he does it or he doesn't. He can leave or he can stay. I know I'm not going to be the one to leave or to force him to go. That leaves me with not a lot of actionable steps to take. I'm actually OK with that for now. We go on this trip or we don't. I'm not freaking out about it. I said my piece and drew my line and it happens or it doesn't.


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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
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