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#2900563 07/24/20 09:37 PM
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Quick recap-- H had a 2 year, long-distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us because of the overwhelming stress, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife. We had four months of getting along very well, enjoying family time with the lockdown, planning for the future. We stopped MC during lockdown as no childcare and H wanted to take a break given the potential stress of MC and quarantine together.

Then in early June, I found out that a couple weeks before he'd gotten back in touch with AP-- she'd texted him to say she was moving on, he reached out to see if she was OK with the protests in her area-- and all of a sudden we rewound back to January. This was his one chance for twu wuv (thanks Scout smile ), same fantasy D scenario, ambivalence, blah blah blah.

I have been pretty solid in a few things-- one, I will not make this decision for him; two, I will not be friends with him if we D; three, if he wants to go on a family vacation or work on our R in any capacity he needs to have the intention of cutting it off with AP permanently and blocking her technologically through all communication channels, which he didn't do the last time. I'm in IC now, which I wasn't before, have been focused on boundaries, questioning my own fears and motivations around the possibility of S/D, identifying the controlling/manipulative behaviors on both our parts.

Three weeks ago, he decided he wanted to go on a four-week family trip in August, will break it off with AP again, doesn't want to get a D. I have maintained I will only go on this trip if he has set the intention of being out of contact with her for good and working on the MR, plus he needs to block her on email, phone/text and WhatsApp (or delete it). Otherwise, it isn't happening. They haven't been in contact now for about two weeks (since he told her about the trip). He's been angry with me for setting an ultimatum on this trip and the idea of me telling him what to do--his narrative and justification for the A that I was a frigid control freak who broke him sexually through long-term SSM.

Earlier this week he committed to doing what I've asked, but it hasn't happened yet. We have a joint IC session this afternoon. Last night I'd asked him if he'd done it yet, he said no, still trying to figure out the best way to do it (he had said he wants to tell her on the phone before blocking her as she has expressed suicidal thoughts recently and he had told her she could always reach out to him if she needed someone to talk to. Blech.) I said I didn't really care, but it had to happen, would probably be better if we went into our IC session with it done if that was his intention so that we could focus on communication and other forward looking things than the fact he hasn't blocked her yet. He said, that made sense.

He also said he was having trouble figuring out what to say to her. I said (thanks Sage) I didn't really care, actually, if he talked to her or emailed her or actually didn't say a word. What I needed was him telling me his intention was to be done with her permanently and that he wanted to focus on the MR, and to block her on all communication channels. And maybe it was better if he didn't reach out to her, but I thought he wanted to do that because she was suicidal. He said, no, she isn't suicidal, she just told me she had had some thoughts. I rolled my eyes and was like whatever, just block her. He said OK. Haven't really talked to him yet today, we're both WFH in different parts of the house.


Me (46) H (42)
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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
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Originally Posted by may22
Last Thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2899361&page=all

Earlier this week he committed to doing what I've asked, but it hasn't happened yet. We have a joint IC session this afternoon. Last night I'd asked him if he'd done it yet, he said no, still trying to figure out the best way to do it (he had said he wants to tell her on the phone before blocking her as she has expressed suicidal thoughts recently and he had told her she could always reach out to him if she needed someone to talk to. Blech.) I said I didn't really care, but it had to happen, would probably be better if we went into our IC session with it done if that was his intention so that we could focus on communication and other forward looking things than the fact he hasn't blocked her yet. He said, that made sense.

He also said he was having trouble figuring out what to say to her. I said (thanks Sage) I didn't really care, actually, if he talked to her or emailed her or actually didn't say a word. What I needed was him telling me his intention was to be done with her permanently and that he wanted to focus on the MR, and to block her on all communication channels. And maybe it was better if he didn't reach out to her, but I thought he wanted to do that because she was suicidal. He said, no, she isn't suicidal, she just told me she had had some thoughts. I rolled my eyes and was like whatever, just block her. He said OK. Haven't really talked to him yet today, we're both WFH in different parts of the house.




Careful May. I see some controlling and micromanaging on your part here. He has to do this himself, of his own free will, in his own time and his own way. Otherwise, he'll just blame you for controlling him and ruining his 'true love' (vom) the second piecing with you becomes difficult - and it will be.

I think what you want is more than 100% reasonable. But he needs to want it - in his heart - too. And if he doesn't, then you need to make your decisions based on that.

I hope IC went well. You are doing great!

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May,

I am also going to press you a bit here. Your thread title is "sticking to my boundaries," however your very stuck on this one detail, which is controlling. You are very hyper focused on him needing to block all contact with her and that is what you need in order to go on this vacation. Can you step out of yourself and see that this is nuts? I say that without judgement because I myself was completely bonkers when I was in the thick of it. But also please trust that for me that was 6 years ago and now I am looking back with a much clearer lens.

May, you cannot control or attempt to control what he does and does not do. Please repeat this to yourself every day. This all goes against the DB philosophy and what we know to be effective. You have to simply let him do what he is going to do. Then you decide what you can and cannot accept. Less is more. It IS that simple. I think you have it backwards. Let's re-shift controlling into boundaries in a healthy way.

Here is what you believe to be true. Your H has not completely ended all contact and blocked all future contact with OW because he still has some attachment or fear. That understanding makes you uncomfortable and prevents you from moving forward with him and prevents you from wanting to travel with him. So, you don't go. There is your answer. Not what you want to hear, I know.

If, and only if, he is the one to approach you and show you someone that is trustworthy, transparent and ready to recommit, then, and only then, do you consider moving forward (or traveling as a family) with him.

Please trust me when I say that there is nothing else to dissect and it is this simple. Let. Him. Go.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Alison, Blu, I think I need some help looking at this.

I do see that my insistence on the blocking etc may be manipulative or controlling. But to me, I don't see it that way-- I just don't want to go on this vacation with the worry that she could throw a bomb in it.

To me, that doesn't necessarily mean that going on this vacation means we are getting back together, or working on our R, or anything. It just means I don't want to do it with that anxiety in my mind.

We met with the IC together yesterday. Here is what he said:

-- he has been NC with AP for two weeks. He doesn't have any intention of contacting her. He doesn't want to. He feels better and clearer without contact. He very much wants to go on this trip and it is important to him to maintain NC with her throughout.

-- one of the things she blocked him on two weeks ago was "find my friends" on the iPhone. Apparently, this was something he used to look at quite a bit, to see where she was, sometimes multiple times in one day. (This was painful for me to learn but also illuminating on just how obsessive his behaviors have been around AP.) He said it really was freeing to not have that anymore and he would never want it again no matter what. IC said that was really, really unhealthy to be checking where she was and he acknowledged. We all agreed the only thing it would be good for was tracking your teenage children, maybe.

-- he understands why I want him to block her. He said if it were 100% up to him he probably wouldn't do it himself, that he knows he won't contact her, he is not interested in being in touch if she contacts him, and if it were to happen he would talk to me about it first (unlike last time). However he said he understands where I'm coming from and why I would want that, and he is willing to do it for me to feel better/more secure. He feels controlled when I dictate how or when it needs to happen and is working through that. He said he will do it this weekend.

-- he wants us to reconnect. he is afraid we can't. he feels that the recent boundaries I've set up around not wanting to talk about AP is the equivalent to me not wanting to understand/know him. He is afraid we will slip back into the same patterns as before. That he needs me to see him for who he is, flaws and all, and believe that I still love him. We talked about this a bit, I said I didn't feel he saw me either, he saw me as an impediment, that if he can't take these fears and set them aside and really try to work on our M without keeping a foot jammed in the door for AP, then there is no point to any of this and we should D. This, I think, is the crux of where we are. He is scared we can't get to M2.0 and that he is losing his life raft of AP in the process of trying. I think we can't actually try until that life raft has been purposefully sunk. We are both scared of the negatives of both options-- staying together or Ding. I'm not confident that he can commit wholly to what it takes to stay and have the outcome be positive.

--IC asked of us the following-- spend the weekend working on connecting and seeing each other. (I said not possible until she is blocked. He acknowledged.) She asked for no phones or phones limited to an hour only during the first week of our trip, so that I don't have to be anxious and so that we can just work on connecting and being a family. No IC throughout. He was positive with this.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Careful May. I see some controlling and micromanaging on your part here. He has to do this himself, of his own free will, in his own time and his own way. Otherwise, he'll just blame you for controlling him and ruining his 'true love' (vom) the second piecing with you becomes difficult - and it will be.

I think what you want is more than 100% reasonable. But he needs to want it - in his heart - too. And if he doesn't, then you need to make your decisions based on that.

I think you're right, about him needing to want it in his heart too. It felt to me like from our conversations over the past week and from yesterday that he does want it. He's scared though. And I don't know if left to his own devices he would ever have the motivation to do anything decisive.

Originally Posted by BluWave
Here is what you believe to be true. Your H has not completely ended all contact and blocked all future contact with OW because he still has some attachment or fear. That understanding makes you uncomfortable and prevents you from moving forward with him and prevents you from wanting to travel with him. So, you don't go. There is your answer. Not what you want to hear, I know.

I do believe he has ended all contact. He doesn't want to block her but he says he will. If he does, I am willing to go. If he does not, I am not willing to go. I'm de-linking any further pressure on this trip to feel like we are moving forward together. it may simply be continued limbo but in a different location and the fun of travel as a family, which TBH I really, really need right now with all the pressures of COVID and childcare and my career decisions on top of everything else. We are lucky to be in a relatively safe place and the only real risks of travel will be staying in hotels, but we chose ones with kitchenettes so we can cook and everything we want to do is outside... and in fact without having our friends around wanting to hang out at the beach, etc., I think we will actually be able to do better with social distancing than we have been here at home.

I know you would both cheer if I could just tell him I don't want to be with him anymore and asked him to MO, or to the basement, or something. I simply cannot cross that line. I can work on not worrying what he does or does not do, and behave accordingly. I can't back out of this trip if he does as I've asked, and I don't want to. But I can remove all pressure for it to mean anything to me, and continue to work on my emotional detachment. And, not pressuring him to block her. He will or he won't. I won't ask again. But I won't start packing until he tells me and shows me it is done.


Me (46) H (42)
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The problem is..... what if he doesn’t honor your request and the trip is planned? What do you do? You don’t want him gone for the 4 weeks with your kids ( understandably), but what happens if everything is booked, the kids are excited and he doesn’t come through?

I think you might need to have a plan for this and a deadline.

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Hi Ginger,

Almost everything is cancellable. I think I’d tell him to take the girls for the first week and then I’d either take over for the second week and send him home, then the last two weeks would be cancelled, or cancel the middle two weeks and I’d take them on the last week (though maybe a modified itinerary). Kids would deal. A lost trip is minutiae in the grand scheme of what is going on.

That is my plan, anyway.


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I just think if the kids think you guys are going on this trip as a family for a month, and all of a sudden you aren’t and are splitting 2 weeks, they are going to have some questions.

You just might want o be ready to answer those . Or come to a decision more quickly. For the kids sake

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May, it is confusing to me that you were adamant about not D because of how it would affect the kids, but in this case like Ginger said, splitting up the vacation with each parent would bring a lot of questions for the children also.

It is a lot more than a lost trip IMO. To make this action - block AP or not - as an ultimatum of whether you will go on this trip does not seem to help with anything. You say that you are not pressuring him to block her, but this IS pressure. If this trip is good for you for your stated reasons, then go! And make it clear to him that you going on the trip has nothing to do with reconciling. And accept the fact that he will do what he will do, contact AP or not, because you cannot control that. If you feel like the AP issue will loom over you the entire vacation, then don’t go! Plan something else separately for yourself.

Originally Posted by may22
He will or he won't. I won't ask again. But I won't start packing until he tells me and shows me it is done.

Re-read this again, can you honestly say that this is not about control?

Also I am curious why “blocking AP” is the key here. How does it flip the switch for you to go from “no trip” to “yes trip”? He can block, and unblock. Does that increase your trust level that much more? Or are you simply looking for him to give in so you have the upper hand? You would feel like you won this battle?

-He has not blocked her, I don’t feel comfortable going on this trip, therefore I will not go.

-He has blocked her, I feel like he is prioritizing me, therefore I will go.

I think there’s a whole range of issues in between. And should not be simplified because of this trip.

If I were you, a refusal to block AP would absolutely be the dealbreaker (trip or M). But even if my H acquiesced to blocking AP under this condition would bring me no peace of mind.


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It's a good point, Ginger. I think we will be OK as we still haven't told them definitively we are going... H may have, but when we have talked about it as a family I still say "if we go." In normal circumstances this would be impossible. But with all the uncertainties of COVID and my work, I am pretty sure we could easily get away with "mom needs to work" and then we decided it was too dangerous with COVID and then take our time deciding what is next in terms of communicating what is going on to them (and actually taking whatever next steps).

He told me today it is pretty much done. I am assuming he will provide more details after the kids go to bed tonight. (Also, "pretty much" is an interesting way to put it. But. Whatever. Feel that any pushing or digging on my part will be interpreted as controlling and at this point I do still GAF what he thinks.)

Blu, I keep thinking on stepping outside myself and see this is nuts. I do see that is how others would see this from the outside-- I'm sure if I were looking at my own situation I would think the same thing. But, I have spent so much time in my own head and with my IC and have come to believe that the reason i'm reacting so strongly is because I feel that being the one to break up the family would be violating a core value of mine.

I *know* I am not the one who broke our M and all that. But I cannot see my way to being the one to pull the trigger, at least where we are right now. IC pushed me on this quite a bit and we got to a place where I believe I would be OK to pull the trigger without feeling like I'm violating my core values, and that would be when I believe the kids would be better off, either because of toxicity in the household or my inability to be a good parent because of the situation, if we split. We aren't there now but I'm committed to really monitoring that situation.

If that makes me stuck... I am stuck. I guess I'm trying to figure out within this framework how can I hold to my boundaries, protect myself and my kids, and let him go without being the one to kick him out the door? He won't leave. He still sleeps in our bed. He says he has cut off all contact with her. And that is all well and good but I just don't feel comfortable knowing she can still contact him. I can get on board with the rest right now-- having a fun and pressure-free family trip. But not if she can throw bombs. And maybe we connect more and maybe we don't. All I know is that I don't want to have anxiety about her reaching out and also I can't be vulnerable with him and reconnect without feeling more secure she is gone.


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Hi Wooba,

I posted the above before I saw your post... maybe I answered it.

On the trip and the kids-- I think if we don't go on this trip, he will pull the S/D trigger. He will be furious. Maybe I'm partially pushing this for that reason-- if feeling like I'm so controlling or selfish or whatever and taking this trip away from the children is what he needs in order to push him in that direction, so be it. But that is also making it so that I can't really say I don't want to go regardless of what he does with the blocking, unless I am purposefully saying I want to D. If he does as I ask, I am pretty much locked into going.

TBH I feel like I was getting a lot of support for not going on the trip without her being blocked being a healthy boundary rather than control... until now... and am freaking out a little because now we are down to the wire, I feel like backing down on this would set me up for a lot of issues down the line, teaching him that if he pressures enough and calls me controlling enough and dawdles enough, saying he'll do something and not actually doing it, then I'll capitulate. I think at this point that would not be good for me psychologically or our relationship generally, R or D.

I've been so, so clear on this for weeks now... posters here were really great in helping me to see I was being controlling when he came to me with the five day trip idea, and I backed off on that and said it was OK. Then HE was the one who came back and said he really really wanted all four of us to go and he was going to cut it off with AP, which was all well and good but I needed more than his word this time, I wanted him to block her because last time we didn't and we all know how that went, don't we... I have held firm to this ever since he said it and he keeps saying he will do it, before the trip, but that it feels controlling if I dictate how and when he does it. And that has brought us to today, three days before we are supposed to leave.

I know I like to be in control and I know I like to win. While I can't say that is zero percent of this current situation, I also know the pit in my stomach of worrying about her throwing bombs. I feel that I just want that anxiety out of here. And, IC's suggestion of limiting our phone use to work time only is a good one and would help me feel better about all of this too, blocking or no blocking.

I guess where I am is, I trust him when he says he has no intention of reaching out to her. I don't trust her and I don't trust his reaction if she does decide she wants to F with our vacation because she is not a trustworthy or a stable person, and I can absolutely envision her continuing to try to reach out to him and manipulate him back.

I also feel like there is far more transparency between us now than there was in the spring. I have no more lingering questions. I know all I need to know. H has been transparent since he did reconnect with her and has also verbally vomited a bunch of unrequested and frankly hurtful information in the name of transparency. He has said he'll tell me whatever I want to know. This is all new.

Maybe, my answer is-- blocking her at least releases my anxiety about her reaching out during this trip and allows me to relax and enjoy the family time. It doesn't mean anything else-- that he is prioritizing me, or wants to R, or is remorseful, or anything else. It simply means I can trust that they won't be in contact, and without that I don't want to go. I'm really trying not to put anything more on it than that. How does that sit?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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