Hopefully Drifting Ashore (Riding the Wave 4)

[LH19]

lol. Sorry. No rush.

[wayfarer]

I lied I didn't need to read through all of them to figure it out.

That divorce was inevitable. I have never seen a case of too little too late that was so glaringly obvious in my life. On here or IRL.

He worked 70 hours a week when the kids were small, kept control over the money, and expected a 1950s housewife. He thinks that trying to get that business going was for the family. When in reality it was for him. I think of season 9 Jim and Pam in The Office. Jim course corrected once he understood the burden his wife was taking on with 2 very, very little children alone for weeks at a time while he was trying to get that business going. The course correction in this case however, came after the kids had entered school full time, the W had and EA, and started working outside the home.

He then was surprised that his W had an EA after emotionally abandoning her even in a super traumatic time in her life. That second birth story is horrifying. And once he unilaterally decided to save the MR was shocked his efforts didn't seem to be enough. I got so annoyed I did the math on the dinners. Just the dinner. Doing 60% for 2ish years does not come even close to the well over 1000+ dinners W had made already. While the 40% she was still doing just kept piling on that total. He continually pushed for a MR that was what his ideal should be only bending enough to accomodate her bare minimum requests. If my complaint is you don't help around the house, I carried the load of all the household chores for more than half our MR, and I tell you in MC that I'm already half way out that door, the bare minimum is you hiring a house keeper for the foreseeable future or me coming home to you scrubbing the floors on your hands and knees not sweeping the kitchen once in while. The fact that he was confused that his efforts were unnoticed/unacknowledged is a pretty glaring way of seeing into the demise of that MR.

Every single time he had like one fleeting moment of true empathy and clarity of the situation he immediately followed it up with some kind of emotional manipulation whether is was this feel-good neuro pathways stuff or general NGS payoff stuff.

There are some serious control issues hiding under the NG surface. Some narcissistic tendencies. The sexual coercion has my hackles up. Oh, and the sheer gall to constantly state how good she has it made me want to throw something. I've never seen an LBH say that that many times.

Now she checked out waaaayyyy before he started trying. She shouldn't have had an EA. She should've been more forthcoming with him. She should've demanded MC. But if you got somebody telling you they're the alpha therefore the direction of the marriage is theirs to determine how do you do that?

I think they both wanted to check the boxes off at the end. Him so he could prove to himself that he did everything and he was an amazing H and put up with a lot he didn't have to. That way he could literally tell other people that. And her because I think she genuinely wanted to check all the boxes so she could say she tried. I do think this WW actually tried at least for a little while. We don't see that a lot. But she defiantly stopped long before he got here on the boards. Her head was out of the marriage before the EA even started, much less ended, and eventually she took her heart out too.

After I grazed through it I remembered why I had only commented on it once or twice. I had a very hard time not wanting to interject my opinion which was not kind, but you guys offered a much kinder probably more productive version of what I would've said.

[OnlyBent]

After I grazed through it I remembered why I had only commented on it once or twice. I had a very hard time not wanting to interject my opinion which was not kind, but you guys offered a much kinder probably more productive version of what I would've said.

I myself would welcome this kind of tough love a bit more WF.

[LH19]

Wayfarer,

I appreciate the time and the feedback provided.

I realized as his sitch progressed things were coming out and he was saying and doing things that clearly showed he doesn’t get it. I do have to admit I was on the side of her going through an identity crisis. Also, it can’t be discounted that she has been unfaithful multiple times. So it makes an interesting topic when you tie in vows, young children, family and friends. Should there be such a thing as too little too late?

[wayfarer]

LH,

So in thinking about "should there be a such thing as too little too late" I can say yeah there is. I think as much as I have faith in love and humanity that some relationships are just beyond repair. There is no going back. For instance when I see LBH's like let's say Core, who are anxiety driven which leads them to be controlling and over bearing and then they are shocked their wives act out I genuinely feel bad. It's really hard to understand those anxious reactions, and the attachment theory stuff that makes you act that way. It's a really long process to over come that bad behavior because it's so deeply etched into who you are particularly by your FOO not being that person as to not destroy your relationship is a nearly impossible hurdle to climb unless you have a partner who is emotionally mature and evolved enough to recognize the patterns, not take it personally and ask that it be something you work on. AND has the patience to wait it out while you essentially rewire your brain. I never for one second thought it was too late in Core's situation if his W could dig deep and own her part and forgive his. If they could both just try a little harder, be a little better and healthier I think they could've made it.

This....this situation however, had no chance. Now I don't think he was 100% of the issue but he spends so much time pointing out WW issues I don't know that I needed to address them in depth. This was a toxic and doomed relationship because of both parties. But WW seems to be self aware enough that she wanted to exit the situation. I can't say the same for the poster.

Let's put it this way, the accusations of emotional abuse I for not one minute doubt they aren't accurate. He was pretty clear about the financial abuse he put her through, and how mad he was that she found out she could do what she wanted and he'd still foot the bill because he had not other choice.

The sexual coercion he doesn't want to call it the r word is another thing. I had that with my exH. And I can tell you saying no a dozen time and finally giving in (an in my case it was because PT is my love language and I was desperate to be touched) I felt filthy and worthless afterwards. He couldn't bother to touch me unless he was completely wasted. It was never on my terms. It was always on his. And no didn't mean no to him. It meant try harder. You don't want to call it what it is. But it is what it is. I still cry when those memories sneak up on me. Anyone who willfully participates in that or can't understand why it would feel that way makes me question their integrity and self awareness on many levels.

To your point LH I think vows, family, friends, little ones, the religious aspect is what kept the MR together as long as it did. I think if the WW didn't feel stigmatized or legitimately fear that D would've harmed (not physical but financial, emotional, etc.) her or her children I think she would've left long before. Money kept her there a long time. Fear kept her there, of the unknown, not necessarily him. And honestly having to find a new path is scary. I'm sure WW was having an identity crisis. It makes perfect sense. Who is she if she's not the wife and mother she was supposed to be?

The way I see it even as he's presenting it is they both came with toxicity into the relationship, whether it is FOO, mental illness, personality conflict, what ever it was they both brought that in. And then they played the fun little game my exH and I used to play that I like to call 'the race to the bottom.' Where instead of dealing with things head on or actively stopping the cycle, either because you've tried and your partner has made it clear that's not going to be a thing, or you actually can't because one or both of you aren't emotionally capable of handling interpersonal, relationship and parenting issues like adults you just constantly try to one up each other with pain. Stacking toxic behaviors one on top of the other on top of the other living on the high of a dramatic relationship until some one taps out. I've seen this relationship more than once in my life. I've been in that relationship. This is that relationship. And if there is any MR that I would be willing to say out of the gate is doomed with no chance of survival it's this kind of MR.

Now my very best friend in the world and her H dug themselves out of this pit of despair but it involved a crap ton of therapy, a lot of back sliding, and a level of patience that they both should get a noble peace prize for. So I'm not saying it's impossible but you need two people willing to stay in and put in the work and the work in a relationship like this is insurmountable to most. And frankly not worth it to just about everyone. Hence my too little too late. And as far as me putting the the onus on him to stop the cycle it was his own words. He takes pride in saying he was the alpha in the family. He chose the position of the alpha instead of an equal partnership that his spouse asked for. If that's his choice he should've done what alphas do, what's best for the pack. By the time he decided to engage it was waaaayyy to late in the game for them to save it even if they both wanted to. The amount of damage they caused each other by then was irreparable.

[wooba]

Hey wayfarer, just dropping by to say hi and congrats on the new house!!

[wayfarer]

Oh hey lady,

I missed you!! Hope you have time to update soon and thank you!

[Traveler]

Wayfarer, wow, that's some deep analysis with valid points. I get it would be hard to share this, harder to receive this without some pre-existing rapport so you both trust it's meant constructively.

"Too little, too late." That could be the mantra of the LBS. It's hard to make dramatic changes, quickly, without expectations. I recall OP reading books on listening and validation, but I only saw him deploy it when he was trying to "win" her back, not in future communications with her or other people. I know those skills are auto-pilot for me. I deploy them with everyone and it feels completely natural. But, I have my own flaws. One (of many) reasons my XGF left me is my inability to tend my home. It's a skill (or a quick call to a cleaning service) 2yrs post-BD I still only deploy when attempting to impress or woo someone.

To the original point, I do believe your writing conveys your thoughtfulness well enough that if you were to write constructive criticism as per the above I and most would feel gratitude. After a cooldown, lol.

I can tell you saying no a dozen time and finally giving in (an in my case it was because PT is my love language and I was desperate to be touched) I felt filthy and worthless afterwards.

I can relate, although I get this happens far more often to women. You seem to have emerged strong and emotionally aware, unlikely to ever again put up with a "partner" who regularly behaves this way.

[LH19]

W,

Man where have you been all this time. Let these guys have it in the future.

So in thinking about "should there be a such thing as too little too late" I can say yeah there is.

Fair point. Just wondered how it aligned with the vows that are preached on here so often. Just so you know I agree.

I never for one second thought it was too late in Core's situation if his W could dig deep and own her part and forgive his. If they could both just try a little harder, be a little better and healthier I think they could've made it.

I think that can be said for a lot of marriages though that is rarely the case.

This....this situation however, had no chance. Now I don't think he was 100% of the issue but he spends so much time pointing out WW issues I don't know that I needed to address them in depth.

I can not disagree with that and you will notice I called him out from time to time.

This was a toxic and doomed relationship because of both parties. But WW seems to be self aware enough that she wanted to exit the situation. I can't say the same for the poster.

I think having an intact family was his only goal.

The sexual coercion he doesn't want to call it the r word is another thing.

Ok. I may have really missed this one. I did not take it that way at all but could certainly be wrong.

I had that with my exH. And I can tell you saying no a dozen time and finally giving in (an in my case it was because PT is my love language and I was desperate to be touched) I felt filthy and worthless afterwards. He couldn't bother to touch me unless he was completely wasted. It was never on my terms. It was always on his. And no didn't mean no to him. It meant try harder. You don't want to call it what it is. But it is what it is. I still cry when those memories sneak up on me. Anyone who willfully participates in that or can't understand why it would feel that way makes me question their integrity and self awareness on many levels.

I am really sorry you had to go through that Wayfarer.

To your point LH I think vows, family, friends, little ones, the religious aspect is what kept the MR together as long as it did. I think if the WW didn't feel stigmatized or legitimately fear that D would've harmed (not physical but financial, emotional, etc.) her or her children I think she would've left long before. Money kept her there a long time. Fear kept her there, of the unknown, not necessarily him. And honestly having to find a new path is scary. I'm sure WW was having an identity crisis. It makes perfect sense. Who is she if she's not the wife and mother she was supposed to be?

Yeah I got that sense too.

Now my very best friend in the world and her H dug themselves out of this pit of despair but it involved a crap ton of therapy, a lot of back sliding, and a level of patience that they both should get a noble peace prize for.

This in my personal life never happens. I do not know anyone personally who has fixed their marriage. They either divorce or live miserably.

[SteveLW]

The sexual coercion he doesn't want to call it the r word is another thing. I had that with my exH. And I can tell you saying no a dozen time and finally giving in (an in my case it was because PT is my love language and I was desperate to be touched) I felt filthy and worthless afterwards. He couldn't bother to touch me unless he was completely wasted. It was never on my terms. It was always on his. And no didn't mean no to him. It meant try harder. You don't want to call it what it is. But it is what it is. I still cry when those memories sneak up on me. Anyone who willfully participates in that or can't understand why it would feel that way makes me question their integrity and self awareness on many levels.

This is such an interesting and important perspective!! And I can see how this dynamic worked in my own SSM. Especially the last sexual encounter before BD (and it was months prior). I think most husbands in a SSM can relate. But my W gave in but made it clear throughout the encounter that she was NOT happy about it. It was awful. I am sure she felt like you afterward, wayfarer, but I have to tell you, I felt HORRIBLE after it as well. It was a soup of emotions. Dirty and worthless. Feeling like I had just committed the r word. A sense of emptiness: "This woman I had felt so loved and cherished by in the past suddenly made me feel unwanted, undesirable, and like I grossed her out." Between that and BD I never even attempted to have sex with her again.

Though I have to comment on this: " Anyone who willfully participates in that or can't understand why it would feel that way makes me question their integrity and self awareness on many levels. " Maybe you are right here. But I have to say as the husband in this scenario, I went into every such encounter (and there were a few over the years) with hope. Hope that this time it would be different. What I never really considered was that she really DIDN'T want to have sex with me. I knew she might be tired, or not in the mood, or hadn't showered that day, or it was that time of the month, or she didn't want to deal with the messy aspect of it all. What I never really considered was that deep down she just didn't want to have sex with me, not just that night, but ever! In hindsight I can see that now. That my lack of intimacy, our lack of connection, the fact that we were two roommates that happened to sleep in the same bed, and just the general malaise of the MR had her in a place where she'd rather have a root canal that have sex with me. Looking back at it in with that insight and perspective, I can completely understand your comment, and the entirety of the paragraph you wrote.

I guess my point is that with NGS, and other factors in a SSM, that the husband isn't necessarily intentionally coercing. We are just not fully aware how the other 23 hours in the day affect the 1 hour of "intimacy". That boorish behavior all the time make us feel like kryptonite to our wife's sexual desire for us. We are too thick-headed to make that connection. And the wives involved for their part do not really enunciate the "issues". When I would broach her lack of desire it was always "I don't know why." "I don't know what changed." "I think I am broken." And maybe not all of the wives involved are as aware of the issue the way that you are now, wayfarer. Maybe you weren't while going through it, maybe you were. But I think there is a bit of sleepwalking going on with both spouses in most SSMs. He doesn't see how his lack of treating her the way she deserves affects their sex lives. And she doesn't understand why the thought of sex with her husband is repugnant, just that she knows she feels that way.

So looking back, yes, your point on integrity and self-awareness is dead on. There is a severe lack of self-awareness for many of the husbands that find themselves in a SSM. And usually their reaction to the SSM actually perpetuates the issues, does nothing to solve them. In fact, looking back at my own situation I can honestly say that my NGS reaction was the exact opposite of how I should have been dealing with it! But I didn't have that insight at the time.