A lot of that makes me think about something BlueWave posted recently, and May. About playing through the what-ifs if I had just walked away from this. If I hadn't subjected myself to a miserable IHS. Where would I be? Honestly Bluewave's point of starting from scratch gives you a whole new relationship to mess up in your own super fun personal way. I think she said it in the way of the LBS's flaws already being there out in the open. It's easier to callout and it's easier to own your part. I think about that a lot. Would I be trying this hard to show my H how much I appreciate how hard he works inside and outside our home for us if we hadn't gone through this? Probably not. He wouldn't be able to point out the micromanaging. And I wouldn't be able to not to take it personally and get defensive immediately. Same with his short comings. And I think about May watching her H slow waking up and finding his humility and remorse. As hard as it was to watch H go though the whole A, grieving the A, being confused about what he wanted, and then remembering who I was and who we were, I don't know that I'd like to take that back. I don't know that I would've been able to trust him again if I didn't watch the process in real time. I don't know that I would've believed it was anything other than lip service if he had gone and tried to come back. That's not to say my path is everyone. I know very well, my path isn't for most people. But for me I'm not sure it could've happened in any other way for us to be where we are right now.
Wayfarer, wow. This is good stuff. I didn't realize it but I feel the same way. The other day I started to feel a little frustration towards my W for something that wasn't done or wasn't done to my satisfaction. It was a feeling I would have felt 4 years ago, and then acted on by saying something critical to her. Almost immediately the thought popped into my head: "Do I love having that done (or done better) more than I love her?" And the answer was no. Not even close! And it caused my frustration to dissipate almost instantly! That was a perspective I was missing for so many years of my marriage. That I loved this woman so much more than all of the things I was allowing my frustration and resentment to make such a big deal about. Obviously I wish I could have woken up to this before having her seek solace in an EAP and to say she wanted a D. But that we were able to come through that better and stronger makes it ALMOST worth it.
I can honestly say, I have had both sitches. First one she immediately said she would end the EA, that she didn't want a D. And we started a "resistant recovery" (her words, not mine). Second time she said she wanted a D, showed no remorse and began to take steps to end the MR. In the first one I didn't do the work on me. Once I confronted about the discovered EA, and she said the right things, I went back to business as usual. In the second one because she was so intent on leaving the MR, I really started to do the work on myself for real, and to change my approach and dynamic permanently. After the first sitch, by time 3 years had gone by, I was already slipping back into my previous bad behavior. This time, three years in, I am still working on me. Such a big difference and I have to say it has to be related to the differences in both of my sitches.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I just wanted to post this because it's fresh on my mind and I want to make sure I memorialize it before it becomes just an every day moment in my life that I don't remember. Last night I was up super late finishing up my final paper and presentation for the class in my master's program (Each semester is broken down into two 8 week speed run courses vs the traditional 2 concurrent 16 week courses). H texted me this morning his typical morning "I love you" but he added "I want to tell you I'm so proud of you." I asked why. He tells me he appreciates me a lot and that he loves me. I get "you're my best friend" pretty regularly but proud isn't something I usually hear. I aske H why he was proud of me. He said "Going back to school. Wearing yourself thin and still holding down the house." I'm going to be honest. It made me tear up.
Before I got here, before I read DR. After BD but before I kicked H out of the MR we had a rough night. Not me screaming into my phone in a mall parking lot rough, but rough. I told H I can make changes. I said I can weather this storm if I needed to let it play. I can and will do whatever I need to to save this marriage no matter how much pride or ego I had to swallow to get there. He looked me straight in the eye and said "yeah right." I asked why he said that. He told me I wasn't capable of any of that. I told him I can do anything I put my mind to. I always have, and I always will. If I choose it I make it happen. Then I asked if he really didn't believe I could do what I put my mind too. He said he'd never seen it. Mind you this man was at my college graduation party. He was there because my best friend and I threw our party together, and as you may or may not remember she's the one who set us up. He was with me when I was promoted at my old employer, twice. He was with me when I got my new job in a much healthier environment. He watched me push through dealing with my step dad when my was sick, and even when we only had days left. He watched me run 5ks and 10ks knowing full well this short curvy body was never, ever meant for running. But in that affair fog or what have he could look me in the face and tell me he'd never seen me accomplish anything.
Fast forward to a year ago. H had been quite unceremoniously dumped by OW a couple weeks prior. H was openly looking for apartments, and repeatedly told me it didn't matter that the affair was over there was nothing left in this MR for him. However he couldn't keep his hands off me, and was becoming more like the man I had known every day. I had no idea where I stood with him. I had no idea where we would be in a year. And completely unbeknownst to him I was already signed up to start my Master's program in May.
Seeing how far we've come since the ugliness and uncertainty is so big. Honestly, H openly praising me for working really hard for myself and our future is something that would've been rare in MR 1.0. That H showered me with love and affection but rarely if ever praised my work ethic, ambition and drive. That H often felt insecure about those aspects of who I am. That H often saw my ambition as a threat to his masculinity not necessarily in the traditional sense, but as a provider. H's job provided us to live in relative comfort with or without my income, but his job is manual and the one he took as job during his "gap" year, which ended up not being a gap. H tries to behave as if the money is more important than fulfillment, but I know it's not. Just his ability to move past all that stuff and prioritize my feelings over something like this is really a big leap into MR 2.0.
Seeing how far we've come since the ugliness and uncertainty is so big. Honestly, H openly praising me for working really hard for myself and our future is something that would've been rare in MR 1.0. That H showered me with love and affection but rarely if ever praised my work ethic, ambition and drive. That H often felt insecure about those aspects of who I am. That H often saw my ambition as a threat to his masculinity not necessarily in the traditional sense, but as a provider. H's job provided us to live in relative comfort with or without my income, but his job is manual and the one he took as job during his "gap" year, which ended up not being a gap. H tries to behave as if the money is more important than fulfillment, but I know it's not. Just his ability to move past all that stuff and prioritize my feelings over something like this is really a big leap into MR 2.0.
Wow, after reading your entire sitch and now seeing this...I'm so happy for you! And, I admire you so much! I relate so much to your sitch (and aspects of your personality), and I know what it feels like to feel some of what you describe above. The fact that you are seen and not have to guess if he is seeing you, but know he is really seeing you for you, is sooo good! And being appreciated for who you ARE is gold.
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
I think you should be proud of your achievements too! Good on you for doing all that. It would be much easier to settle for less, and most people are not as driven as you are. Keep fighting the good fight!
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
(((Wayfarer)))) if only we could go hang out and have a few cocktails. I'm really so happy for you. I love that you're starting to move into M2.0, not just heal from the fallout of M1.0. That gives me so much hope.
I've also been thinking a lot lately about the difference between pride and self-confidence. Letting go of your ego and pride is an act of self-confidence, I think, even though it is easy to mistake ego for confidence. Swallowing your pride and eating $hit sandwiches today in service to your ultimate long-term goal... IMHO that takes as much if not more courage and strength than kicking his sorry @ss out the door on day one.
I also feel like your sitch moved at the pace that it did because you never flinched. You just kept it up day in and day out and provided such an amazing example for the rest of us. Thank you for continuing to post and share.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I realized I haven't updated in a while so I thought I'd give it a go. I think I may move to the piecing board at some point here since there are so few of us,. Also it's so hard to find threads to read of couples that actually make it to this side, and the anxiety, anger, as well as, the forgiveness and growth.
So I've taken a pause on my Masters classes. Work is an absolute disaster, a bunch of people jumped ship with retirement or otherwise in a very short period of time. I'm doing a bunch of things I normally never do. I'm working ton of hours in and out of the office. D18 is graduating in a month. We've also been house shopping. So it was all too much. IC agreed. I'm resuming classes in July.
D18 has been making huge strides in autonomy and adult decision making. She has terrible phone anxiety and has been doing swimmingly working things out for Fall, the half--a$$ prom they threw for these poor kids, and trying to find a "better" summer job than she usually has. She even made her own doctor's appointment which is a thing I never thought would happen. In her defense the lady at the front desk is pretty, let's go with brusque. The last year has been very surreal and it kind of let me feel like all of this adulthood/growing up stuff wasn't really happening because she was around all the time with Covid. Seeing her all dressed up for prom put me over the edge. I must have cried like 12 times that day. I know it was in part because my mom had to miss this and she really loves this kind of stuff. I know it was also in part because it's my 20 year this year and I was feeling a little nostalgic. But seeing that silly right of passage unfolding really got to me. I'm not sure how I'll handle graduation. Probably not well.
D17 is still giving us all some trouble, but she's at least gotten her school work back up to par. There's a good chance she'll end up in summer school if she wants to graduate on time. But honestly given pre-Covid summers it's probably the best place for her. It keeps her busy and engaged. She is not a kid who can be left to their own devices. My D started her angsty years super early she was just obnoxious and hard to deal with and like from 11-14ish. But by 15 she was over it and we were just done. No more anger for the sake of anger. She's still kind of moody but it's tolerable and gets better every passing year. D17 however started her angsty phase late. So late that H once looked at me and told me 'D17 will never act like that," in the midst of dealing with my D's rough years. I laughed and laughed and laughed. Around the time D17 turned 14 I was asked very politely to not say I told you so. I'm hoping we are coming up on the end of the road here because 18 year olds who act like this tend to have to face some pretty harsh realities.
So H and I pushed all of our splitting up saving back into our joint account and with the spring time government cash infusions we started looking for houses again. This market is a disaster, but given the interest rates and with D18 staying home for undergrad we need the room. We need space for 4 adults. We definitely don't have that. If nothing else Covid made that abundantly clear. As I said this market is something else. I know that what we've been dealing with would definitely lead most couples to fights. It thankfully only lead to one fight.
After our 4th offer and our 4th rejection I was not ok. H called me negative, which is one of the things he'd throw at me during the A, and that he can't deal with me on top of everything else. It really upset me, and I nipped it in the bud immediately. I told him I will not tolerate him talking to me like that. That I was nothing but supportive of him when he was genuinely upset when we lost the first house, and that I would never speak to him that way, so why does he think it's acceptable to talk to me like that. He apologized right away and said I was right. He just said I was crying and he didn't know how to fix that, nothing seemed to work. I explained that I didn't nor do I ever want him to "fix" me. We discussed this in reference to this moment but also about my depression. I also explained that my negative emotions used to come out only as anger. So if I'm crying I'm just processing. This is growth for me. If it's hard for him to see me like that I'm sorry but that's not my responsibility. Those are his feelings and he needs to learn how to deal with it. He agreed. He then said something to the effect of isn't it great when we communicate, and I said that's all I've wanted this whole time.
We have managed to find a house. It's perfect even if it took 6 tries to get us there. We'll be closing in a couple weeks. I'll say it again. I hate that this is the way we had to take to get us here, but if this is what it took for us to not only talk about money like grown ups but to learn how to fight like grown ups I'll take it. I can't say enough about how much I love and appreciate this version of H. He is a much calmer more empathetic and reasonable man than the one in MR 1.0. And I don't feel like I have to just eat it when he's mean because he doesn't know how to deal with his own negative emotions. I don't feel like harboring that resentment and hurt is worth it for the peace any more. I feel like asserting my boundaries for my own personal peace is worth more. Had I really understood how much my exH had me programmed to do the utmost to keep the peace I think I would've waited longer to date again after. I think I would've waited longer to get serious with some one too. I'm not the kind of girl to be trampled on, but basically going from my step-father to my exH I lost a lot of who I was, and ate more than my share of sh!t sandwiches to keep the peace. I don't ever want to go back to that version of my self again. And I think being here really helped bring me along on that realization and that journey.
We men are fixers. It is an unfortunate trait. Works well in certain aspects (business, around the house, with cars, etc), but when it comes to how we relate with women it is definitely something that doesn't always play well. I know since our most recent sitch I wait for her to ask me to fix something. Now I just empathetically (huge 180 for me) listen and validate. She appreciates that much more than me trying to fix everything. I wish I could get more guys to learn to just shutup (you don't have to fix it!) and just listen to their wives. And then let their wives know that they understand how their wives are feeling. Makes a huge difference in the male-female relationship dynamic.
Glad things are progressing. Feel free to hop over to the Piecing board. Unfortunately we only get a post every couple of months there, but there is some good information to be found. I wish more LBSs that moved to piecing would stick around and post there. But oh well. Keep on keeping on wayfarer!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'm so glad things are progressing well! It's inspiring to your progress and this part really resonated with me
Originally Posted by Wayfarer
I don't feel like harboring that resentment and hurt is worth it for the peace any more. I feel like asserting my boundaries for my own personal peace is worth more. Had I really understood how much my exH had me programmed to do the utmost to keep the peace I think I would've waited longer to date again after. I think I would've waited longer to get serious with some one too. I'm not the kind of girl to be trampled on, but basically going from my step-father to my exH I lost a lot of who I was, and ate more than my share of sh!t sandwiches to keep the peace. I don't ever want to go back to that version of my self again. And I think being here really helped bring me along on that realization and that journey.
I think I've been trying to do the same since BD, and finding my voice and setting boundaries is something I am working very hard at...and will definitely act differently in my next relationship. For me, holding in the hurt and resentment just festered and didn't fix anything. And it certainly made me feel awful. No one should have to take in any more sh!t sandwiches then is absolutely necessary! It's refreshing that your H is listening and respecting you!
(((hugs)))
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
We men are fixers. It is an unfortunate trait. Works well in certain aspects (business, around the house, with cars, etc), but when it comes to how we relate with women it is definitely something that doesn't always play well. I know since our most recent sitch I wait for her to ask me to fix something. Now I just empathetically (huge 180 for me) listen and validate. She appreciates that much more than me trying to fix everything. I wish I could get more guys to learn to just shutup (you don't have to fix it!) and just listen to their wives. And then let their wives know that they understand how their wives are feeling. Makes a huge difference in the male-female relationship dynamic.
In our dynamic that's only a very small portion of it. The reality is I'm the fixer. I fix the cars, the house, the kids...lol. I have to fix, fix, fix. But that is part of my personality as well as some hangover from growing up with an abusive/narcissistic parental figure. "If I can make every thing perfect then he won't rage" that kind of thought process. It takes a long time to work through those trauma responses. I've gotten much better given the 20 years of distance from that situation and a crap ton of therapy, but I still hang on to a lot of those super unhealthy behaviors because I was programmed in my formative years to be like that.
H's issue is his own fun FOO stuff. H was surrounded by loud, feisty, opinionated Latinas, (weird how he ended up with me, right?). However, his mom wasn't always part of that crowd. She had kind of party lifestyle. But because he was kind of shoved in a weird space of being a kid/grandkid to abuela and nephew/sibling to all his aunts and one uncle he wasn't always treated like the little boy he was. He was treated much older and he often became the sounding board in the house because he is a very good listener. As a little boy he had these big eyes and ears he probably looked like a little puppy that these adults and almost adults would just unload to. He developed an interesting version of the fawn response, which is common but he takes it to another level, of being the distraction in tense situations and making tense people laugh. He truly believes he can fix people if he can make them be not sad or mad. Honestly, until I started making him read somethings about depression, co-dependency, and childhood trauma responses he truly believe he didn't have negative emotions and all negative emotions are bad. I know this so I don't even need or ask to vent to him about much, because he still struggles with the concept of venting is just venting, and then it's over. That saying how bad my day at work is just that and nothing else.
This has also manifested as what a lot of people my age like to call Captain Save a H*e syndrome. It's basically a straight male co-dependent who unintentionally latches on to toxic women. Women who are always in trouble, or in need in some way. They swoop in like a knight in shining armor and look amazing and feel amazing fixing everything. Until they realize that the chaos they save the damsel from was of her own creation and she will never truly be out of it. Seriously co-dependent guys will stay forever. Others wake up and realize everyone thinking they're this woman's savior isn't worth continuing to fix things forever. Hence the multitude of short term relationships prior to ours and his lovely little dalliance. A lot of strain in our relationship in the past has come from him thinking I need saving because I have had a lot of not great stuff happen in my life in the years we've been together, and because I am the way I am I don't want that kind of attention or support. I know what it is because toxic people can sniff out trauma. I've had toxic people try to swoop into my daughter's and my life before. That kind of "fixing" is basically NGS. It's being done to feed his ego or soothe the chaos he's feeling because of it, not to actually help me. A lot of this feeds into why I've asked him to really consider IC. He's still very resistant but he does read the things I ask him to so baby steps I guess.
The point of that very long story is, I was just quietly crying to myself. I'm a big girl. I can self soothe. I didn't ask for the help or even comfort. He takes that upon himself not just because he wants to fix but because it's a compulsion and I'm sure we'll have to have this conversation more than once. However, this was a big step in the right direction of this dynamic in our relationship that needs to be resolved.
