Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11
may22 #2899525 07/09/20 06:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
may22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
But I can't help but feel all the buck-passing and waiting that your H is inflicting on you - well, you are choosing it. There's literally nothing he can say or do or pull out of the bag in the next fortnight that is going to substantially change the truth about where you are in your marriage.

I know. I 100% know I am choosing this course right now by not doing anything decisive. I am putting myself through this simply by just still being here.

But. I guess it is because it seems to me the main alternative-- telling him to go and I want a D-- is not something I can do authentically, yet. What is far more important to me right now than the $hitty way I feel today is to be able to look back at this time and know, in my heart of hearts, that I did everything I could to save this M and protect my children. I know that in many cases the children are happier after because of the conflict and stress in the MR, etc. I'm not trying to blow smoke here but I know I am a really good mom and I can separate what is best for me from what is best for the children. I know those two things are connected, too-- there will be a tipping point where my parenting is affected by my own trauma-- but it hasn't happened yet. And the one thing that stops me cold, that breaks my voice when I try to talk about it, is the idea of being the one to inflict the S on the children. I just.... can't. Maybe I'll get to a place where I can. If I start to see myself erode or my ability to be present and a good parent be significantly affected, I'll need to reevaluate. But this-- being the one to pull the trigger-- for me, is simply not something I can do and be able to reconcile my own identity as a mom and my values with my actions. I wish it were different. Maybe something I can work on with IC.

So. For whatever reason, that path is not open to me, today. Maybe it is denial? If I spent enough time thinking about his actions and what a f-up he is, how unhappy I am M to him, maybe it would either start to affect my parenting our the situation here (maybe I could pick a lot of fights?) such that I'd see it would be better for the kids to S? Or seeing the inevitability of it so why prolong the agony? I am kind of already in that latter boat, mostly, but it still isn't enough to allow me to make the call.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
What other information do you need to make your decisions?

I don't know. Will think on this one.

Originally Posted by Pommy99
I've been thinking about your a-hole H and see someone very, very lost. I think I actually believe that deep-down he does not want a R with AP, (regardless of whether he's binned her off or not at this stage). I'm wondering if you - like me - have witnessed such deep and significant transformations within ourselves that we find it hard to let go of someone if we believe that they too might experience that inner transformation/lightbulb moment.

I think I believe that too. Otherwise he still wouldn't be here. Or he does want one, but only in the imaginary/sisters wives way, because he doesn't want it enough to actually walk. It is pretty pathetic. For her, too. And yes, I definitely feel like I know that it is possible to rediscover your love for your spouse because it happened to me, just like you.


Originally Posted by Pommy99
Something needs to break the cycle May - I know you know that. What is going to be the catalyst for real change? Do you think you have a really good opportunity here, on a plate?

Maybe. I did, until he first did the 5-day thing and then decided he wanted to go all in and said he was ending it (again). Now that has managed to throw me for a loop and I'm still collecting myself. I need to think on the various options. I am still not OK with him taking the kids for more than a week away from me. Sorry. I don't think I'll ever be-- I wasn't when we were happily M and I'm definitely not now. F that. Could I say let's cancel the first two weeks (we could still get part-time distance learning those two weeks for the kids), and we each take them for one of the other two weeks? I could do that.

On the S part... I feel like most of my tribe here (excepting WF) has had the experience of S and it wasn't usually by the LBWs own volition. I completely believe that once I get to that place, I'll be so much more equipped to deal with everything in front of me without him in my space all day long. And maybe that is what he needs too, to see what life is like outside of this family and house and without me. I honestly believe I would be scared but embrace it right now if he came and said that is what he wanted. I am just unable to be the one to do it.

He ordered this book and was reading it last night... I asked him what he was reading and he tried to hide it from me and then showed me. Said I was the one always reading things and then sharing it with him so he wanted to do the same (and reiterated that he's still reading the Glass book too). He said he hoped it would help him make a decision-- it purports to clear out all the myths surrounding M and D such that you can make a clear-eyed decision on whether to work on your M or move on. It was called Sacred Cows and is basically a rah-rah book for D, "busting" all the myths of why D is so bad. I read through it this morning and was so annoyed. Written by two people who are both Ded (and happily remarried to each other with four children) and honestly feels the entire time they are trying to justify their decisions. Maybe reading this book will give him what it takes to walk. IDK.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2899529 07/09/20 07:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
So a few thoughts.

Originally Posted by may22
She is concerned that the affair or things around it are starting to be normalized for me, even things like saying her name (for the longest time I never said her name, just that person or another person. I have said her name in conversation with H and with IC recently).
Hey you know that Beyonce song 'Sorry'? How about the line so and so "with the good hair"? Let's just say Beyonce and I have more in common than I thought. And you better believe I'm singing that line every chance I get. May, I want you to look at this from a different perspective than IC says. And maybe you can give a little push back on her if you feel like this makes sense to you. Saying her name isn't normalization. It's like being Harry Potter and being willing to say Voldemort. A name only has power if you give it power. IMHO you saying her name now is taking back some of that power you let her have over you.

Originally Posted by may22
I'm confident if she lived here I would have found out about it a lot sooner and if he was sneaking around with her in real time I would have had a lot harder time with that--imagining that in the future is really hard for me-- so somehow the distance made it seem less real to me and kept me from getting as enraged as I might have otherwise.
You're smart. You would've found out much sooner just like I did. I knew what was up in weeks. And yeah you do have to confront your rage head on when it's in your lap. In front of your face. In front of your children. When acquaintances are texting and sending pics to you at 2am asking you who's the wh**e hanging all over your husband at the club, at the bar, at a restaurant you've been dying to try. You have to breath fire. And then decide if you're going to live in that or not. I wasn't ever a beggar or a pleader. That's not really in my wheel house. But I did rage. Full blown had to have bff talk me out of more than one illegal act, rage. You have been kind of bubbling up under the surface for as long as I've been around you on here and I wonder if you've taken and time to truly be enraged about all this with or without AP here. I'm not saying taking a baseball bat to H's car which I came very very close to, full disclosure. More than once if I'm going to be honest here. But taken the time to scream and throw things and cry or punch or break stuff. Have you had any outlet in this time to funnel all that anger bubbling under the surface? Or do you just try to quell the beast?

Originally Posted by may22
He told me today he wants to try staring into each other's eyes for four minutes and then each of us telling the other their 100% truth, where they are, how they feel, what they want, etc without the other person interrupting or reacting at all. I thought about it and said I didn't want to do that right now, unless he could keep AP out of the conversation. but I wasn't interested in hearing anything about her. He didn't say anything in response.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, omg I'm so sorry. I laughed for like 2 whole minutes. Is he for real with this? If my H walked up to me and said that the first thing out of my mouth would be GTFOH. I can't with this. Girl, I have crystals, and candles, I was heavily in to Iyengar yoga for years. I was a massage therapist many many moons ago, but seriously? 4 minutes staring at each other. Staring at each other and telling "their truth." I can't, I just can't. This is too much even for me.

Originally Posted by may22
Scout, Cardinal... thanks on the job. It's hard. I'll see what it all looks like when she sends me what she's thinking. It is really very flattering-- they're putting this job together for me -- but there also isn't really a rush as it isn't a position right now. I could probably string it out for awhile-- I asked her timing and she said she couldn't wait two years but she could wait. So maybe it could still be a possibility.
I know what your executive coach said. But I'm with Allison's thought process on this. If you're being offered opportunities to become financial independent and afford that house on your own, make those moves, no fear. There is an argument here for your attorney that you now make more because you had to because he's a cheater and couldn't make up his mind. There's not a huge chance even with 50/50 that you're going to have to pay out alimony with an income increase shortly before filing. Just as an FYI.

Thinking of you often xoxoxoxo

may22 #2899536 07/09/20 07:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,048
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,048
What it looks like to me, May, is that he's ignoring you again and manipulating you to get what he wants.

You said you didn't want to go on the trip with him as a family, but after some thought, you decided he'd take the girls alone for some time away, and you might do that yourself too.

Since then, he's decided he doesn't want his mistress any more, but he hasn't taken any actual action to make that happen, and he's going full speed ahead to plan a trip you've already told him you don't want.

He is totally ignoring what you have said, has fed you a line, taken no action to back it up, and is pretending all is well in terms of he having what he immediately wants.

Choosing a D and choosing this trip and choosing to let him ride rough shod over a decision you've already made and communicated to him are totally different things.


Last edited by AlisonUK; 07/09/20 07:26 PM.
may22 #2899552 07/09/20 09:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
Just dropping in to recommend a book called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay' to help you with your ambivalence.

Why the F is he reading and sharing a book about successful D when he has ostensibly recommitted to the marriage?

He wants to go. You want him to go. Neither is willing to rip the bandaid off. So limbo will continue.


chumplady.com
may22 #2899553 07/09/20 09:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
may22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
He told me today he spoke to her this morning and told her he wants to cut it off and work on the M. That he hasn't decided 100% but is close to 100%. He told her his fear is that we'll try and it won't work, in six months or a year I'll decide I don't want his sad a$$ anymore and then he'll have lost everything. He told her he thinks its a 50-50 chance that that happens. (Funny, because he's told *me* that he thinks the chances of us working out is much smaller than that. But I said nothing.) Apparently she was like why would you take that chance? I was v confused and asked for clarification... because you know that it is 100% likely you'll be happy with her? He said, yes. I said well then WHY AREN'T YOU JUST CHOOSING THAT? He doesn't know. He's a mess. He left it at he doesn't know if he'll ever speak to her again and is all freaked out. I walked away to go get on a zoom call. I'm just rolling my eyeballs at this point.

WF, the rage. I'm scared of the rage inside of me. Truly. So no, I haven't let it out. I might see if we have a rage room in my city or maybe just figure out some $hit to break and break it or get a punching bag as Scout suggested. I have written out some pretty horrible things I'd like to say in my journal which does feel good in the meantime.

Also, glad I could provide some comic relief smile smile smile The staring into each other's eyes was something our MC made us do a couple of times, which actually made me cry like crazy. And I feel like the truths thing comes from AP maybe. It isn't really him. He's on this "I need to honor my authentic self" "these are my truths" kick that I'm confident comes from AP and their "radical transparency." VOMIT.

Alison, I did say I wanted to go on the trip *if* I felt confident that things were totally over with her forever. I said I didn't want to dictate what that looked like but things would have to be different this time in order for me to feel comfortable, including mechanisms put into place that she couldn't throw bombs at us down the line like she did this last time. Then we didn't really speak of it again until yesterday when I was like... the trip is like two weeks away and I don't see any progress here so.... I do think he is being manipulative in terms of putting the trip back on and getting me back in the place where he's more comfortable (ie not proceeding as though we are Sing). But, I did say I wanted to go on this trip under certain conditions. It will be up to me to pull the plug as it isn't looking like my conditions as I'd set them out have any likelihood of being met, which is what i'm working on right now, what that looks like, etc.

Another question-- I'm thinking of drafting up a written agreement proposing what I would be asking for in terms of financial and child custody stuff and sitting down with him to review it. What do you guys think? If we got a post-nup in place, I'd feel a lot better about pursuing another job right now. Though figuring out how to do well at that job when I'm clearly not working all day but hanging out on these boards instead is going to be an issue wink


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
may22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
Originally Posted by scout12
Just dropping in to recommend a book called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay' to help you with your ambivalence.

Why the F is he reading and sharing a book about successful D when he has ostensibly recommitted to the marriage?

He wants to go. You want him to go. Neither is willing to rip the bandaid off. So limbo will continue.

Hi Scout,

I saw that book on Amazon last night-- will pick it up.

He *isn't* recommitting to the M, really. He's still freaking out. He said that with his mouth but not with his heart. He thinks that book will help him decide. Apparently he has wanted to get it for a long time but just picked it up. Also, it is framed as a book that isn't a celebration of D but as simply clearing out the myths of D, like "it is bad for the children" and "love is a verb not a feeling" and "marriages are hard work" blah blah blah. SO, maybe, ostensibly he saw it as a way to get out of ambivalence and stop being scared of some of the things he's scared of with D.

But when you read it, it is 100% someone trying to justify their own decision. There's this whole section on what well-meaning friends or family might say to you, like "marriage is hard work" and then has what that person is really thinking, which is "my marriage sVcks, why should you get out of it when I can't?" It is really a piece of work. Gross, really. I get that maybe it acts as a balancing act to what CL calls the reconciliation industrial complex. And, truth be told, I am spending a good amount of time with CL so if that is what it takes for me to say buh-bye and he needs someone to tell him it is OK to have fallen out of love with someone and once that happens you have no choice but to follow your own happiness, then OK.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2899556 07/09/20 09:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
Quote
Another question-- I'm thinking of drafting up a written agreement proposing what I would be asking for in terms of financial and child custody stuff and sitting down with him to review it. What do you guys think? If we got a post-nup in place, I'd feel a lot better about pursuing another job right now. Though figuring out how to do well at that job when I'm clearly not working all day but hanging out on these boards instead is going to be an issue wink


Yes, do this. Show him if you must, but don't ask for his input. "This is what I will be pursuing as a separation agreement." D is not a team sport! You should not ask a man you cannot trust to make promises he might not keep. Figure out what is fair and then pursue it through legal channels because you are entitled to it. He will be most agreeable while he is feeling guilty. As time goes on and the weight of his decisions presses down on him, there's a good chance he will turn angry again to justify what he has done. Ask me how I know wink


chumplady.com
may22 #2899571 07/10/20 07:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,048
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,048
By all means, draft up a separation agreement. Do it with your L and have your L send it to him. You don't collaborate with your partner on a separation or divorce, you act independently and negotiate through third parties. Trying to collaborate with him or showing him something you've worked out on your own is going to come across as contact-seeking - wanting to shock him out of his reality, get him to start acting different, etc etc. It won't work, and even if it does work, you're still stuck in this game you and he are playing out together at the moment. If you're going to do it, do it through a L and refuse to speak to him about it - he can communicate how sad he is about not being able to have sex with one woman and enjoy the domestic labour and approval of his wife while he does it, how endlessly difficult that is for him, via an email to your L.

The conversation he had with his mistress is not him breaking it off. It's an excuse for more contact where he can talk about how impossible all this is for him and how awful it is, having two women hanging on his every move. The fact he even told you about the way the conversation went is proof of his. He could have texted or emailed her and said he was done, no contact. Instead it's just more of the drama he seems to choose to be embroiled in. It's very teenage behaviour on his part and even without how disgusting it is that he is cheating on you, incredibly unattractive to my mind.

Have you worked out what happens when you say a quiet, respectful and consistent no to him yet? No matter what he says or does next?

may22 #2899572 07/10/20 07:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
may22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
Thanks Scout, Alison.

I'm not ready to bring Ls into it. In my state, a legal separation is the same amount of work and cost and process as a D decree, and then it only lasts for two years. You either pursue D within those two years (same process and cost again) or if you let the two years lapse, you're still M and the separation agreement is no longer valid. Neither L recommended it-- it seems to be either you go ahead with full on D or not. The S agreement just doubles the work and the cost. A post-nup agreement, though, could just be signed by the two of us and notarized. Both Ls recommended that H have an attorney review the post-nup before he signs it, as if it is perceived to be too much in my favor he could argue that he was duped into signing it without a L, but I'm not sure I'm ready to escalate this all to the point of having his L talk to my L and how much that is all going to cost.

However, I'm glad I've done my research and I know what I'd want to propose. I think there might be value in writing it up in the form of an agreement so that I have gone through that process and have it written up. I have also downloaded all the D forms and filled most of them out, gotten copies of financial docs, etc. so that when it is time I can be as prepared as possible and keep the L fees down. But I'm not there yet. (I mean, I should at least be able to tell him to GTFO of the house before I call in the attorneys, right?!?? And I still can't even do that!!)

So far, I've been pretty noncommittal when he's said things to me about breaking it off or whatever. I did say to him today, so should we cancel our trip? He said NO! I'm not in contact with her. Why would we cancel? I said, haha, that isn't good enough. If we're going to do this, we are going to do it differently this time. He asked me what I suggested. I said I wasn't going to lay it all out for him. But I have in the past so he knows (deleting all contact info, social follows, blocking numbers, etc.). It isn't worth saying again. I agree that it just makes him feel like he has two women fighting over him. it is very teenage romance. He is SO MOPEY and over-the-top, very clearly wanting some attention about how sad and depressed he is. (You are right, Alison. This is not attractive behavior.)

Later, he came to sit in my office to say he's scared of three things. He's scared I only want him to "win" in some fashion. He's scared I'm doing this too much for the kids and not because of us. He's scared that I won't forgive him and/or will realize I can never trust him again and ditch him in a year and he'll be all alone. I said, I've been thinking about all those things too. He said, I think I have never given us a chance and in order to do that I have to give her up forever. I said, yeah. (OMG the other totally annoying thing is that he feels so guilty about her, she is so sad and lost without him. It is all I can do to not make a face. It is soooooo playing to his ego to feel like her heart is broken forever. Meanwhile I'm looking at him as he says this with I KNOW written all over my face REALLY?!??. Give me an f-ing break. He got all defensive, she doesn't know what to do. I said, she's 34. She'll be fine. She never has to see you again. He said, you had a BABY at 34. That isn't so young. I just rolled my eyes. She's a big girl. She chose to get into a two year long distance affair with a married man. Surprise! it didn't work out! I didn't say this out loud though.

I do think I've made some improvements, definitely, in holding to my boundaries. I don't feel sorry for him and I know that comes across clearly. I am continuing to detach. His histrionics aren't affecting me except for me to roll my eyes inwardly.

Why would I want him back? Assuming he makes that choice? I think it is because I do still hold out hope for what we could have, assuming we get past this. He said in the conversation about his fears-- if we D you'll find someone else. You'll probably be happier. I said, I don't doubt that. But here's the thing (though I didn't say this to him)-- no-one else could ever be the full package, because they wouldn't be the father of my children. I'd always have that regret AND plus would have to share them with him forever.

Anyway. I'm not holding my breath on any of this. Continuing to look at puppies, plan for the positives of being on my own, think about what I want to do about the trip. (Alison, I'm just to the part in your thread where you got your puppy. Sounds like so much fun.) He said tonight "let's plan the trip." which I think was supposed to be code for "I've made up my mind." Again. I said nothing. Then he said, I'm really depressed. I said, sorry. Then we ate dinner and had a fun night with the kids without really interacting much between the two of us.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2899580 07/10/20 01:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 559
Likes: 1
Quote
Later, he came to sit in my office to say he's scared of three things.


Noooooooope. Don’t validate the mindf*ck channels. Your H is stuck on self-pity again - time to find the remote!

“H, I’m very busy putting together a post-nup/separation agreement/personal budget. Please give me some space.”

Don’t mention this because you want to scare him, mention it because you do not give a F what he thinks.

It’s honestly obscene that he continues to unload his feelings about his twu wuv onto you. Every time you entertain this nonsense, even just by listening to it, you give credence to his belief that he is the victim in this situation. It’s hard to understand what is motivating you to continue participating in these conversations. He’s not exactly coming up with anything new to say beyond the usual blameshifting and snarky potshots and pathetic whimpering. You are obviously out of his league but he’s still got you convinced somehow that he’s the prize!

Let the two cheaters go live their sexy lifestyle of radical transparency or whatever f*cking dumbsh*t thing they said. Sometimes I really wish we could swear here. If he stays, you’ll be the chief of marriage police for the rest of your life. Constant vigilance. Trust but verify. Random inspections. Are you prepared for that? I suspect some people enjoy having that power over their repentant cheaters, but I don’t think that’s you. Unfortunately, it’s either that or put your faith in a proven lying cheater and try to forget that you can’t trust him.

What ratio of wanting him to stay/go do you feel right now? 80/20, 50/50, 30/70?

Good work being prepared with the paperwork in advance.


chumplady.com
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard